take a look at my profile. I have 2.63 aps and I think 51.5cc (53 or 54 with scoundrel) and I seem to be perfectly fine farming in MP8. I usually run 2.79 aps and 59.5cc (w/o scoundrel) with my Tal Rasha and Nat set. My LOH is about 900.
The biggest difference are that extra 100 Armor and 10k hp from the Zuni Set and they seem to offset my aps reduction to below 2.73 aps.
Edited by yodatoy#1838 on 1/21/2013 6:01 AM PST
2.5 sucks.. show me a video of you beating a high health SINGLE fast elite, bird or TP murlou. I have best pings in this forum and they break @2.5. which means starting all over. screw that. SOme ppl like aph with 65% crit will be exempt but not the rest of u. 65% crit cost more than 2.73.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/21/2013 9:38 AM PST
You cant seriously think there is that big of a difference between single targets with 2.5 and 2.74? I dropped from 2.52 to 2.39 and it makes no difference when farming. How much of your farm time do you spend killing single, high health, fast elites that run away from you?
It's easier to live through one or two arcane sentries that sneak through rather than six. The closer you get to a true permafreeze the more wiggle room you have for increased dps or lower defense.
When I saw Aph with a Slorak's I went and gave it a try with my Mara's (15% ET CC) @ 62% CC @ 2.62 aps. Was experimenting with 10 Apoc. Whenever I got off deep freeze I went on an arcane surplus almost instantly. Whenever I had a 4 champ pack I had no problems with arcane. 3 got 1-2 messages of arcane, single elites were a straight up pain (per usual really unless you're 9.5+ apoc calculation).
This leads me to believe that even without max ET CC with 3 aps @ 10 apoc would be perfectly fine but not the most optimal thing of course on singles which again u should be avoiding (drag trash or kill elite @ same time as minions ect).
This also leads me to believe that 2.73 with lots of ET CC could be a stronger max than 3 aps without.
Either way 2.5 is terrible unless you're doing meteors / blades! Try to get 2.73 , always unless you're running 12-22% ET CC which I'm sure 99.99% (IE 100%) of you are not.
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 1/21/2013 9:54 AM PST
I understand that build can /work/ even at 2.00 aps, but it's like you can afford to drive to work but decide to walk a few kms. There is no doubt that build gets better and better at higher aps, until 3.0. The only barrier that prevents people from jumping straight to 3.0 is budget. You can't possibly have a high DPS high survivability 3.0 Wiz without billions, so most of us stay at 2.73, which is the next best BP, and much more affordable.
I want to try 2.5 solely because Aph said it offers higher DPS, I doubt the survivability can be the same, hence we need higher CC and LoH.
No kidding; I'm running OK at under 700 LOH right now (although I'd like to get to 750-800 however).
How do you define "OK"? Also which MP? Because I had serious difficulties running with 700 LoH before, MP 8 btw.
3.06 APS, MP7 on Act 3 runs and solo ubers, MP9 on Keywardens. I subbed out a 350 LOH ring for a bigger DPS ring. What I noticed dropping from 1000 LOH to 660 was that there were more fluctuations in HP but that I could deal with them, even bad affix combos like RD/Electricity. Somewhere between 700 and 1000 seems like the sweet spot for LOH at my combo of DPS and attack speed.
Edited by Ossian#1946 on 1/21/2013 11:11 AM PST
Single targets dont spit out 6 arcane sentries though. And everything is permafrozen if there are 2+ targets even with 2.0 aps.
^^ heh, it works just fine -- RD is meaningless to me.... and I have 19 APOC and 55% CC. Issue? Not here... and AS is well below 2.7, BTW... for farming, >2.7 is absolutely not needed evar...
Ya see this what I'm saying. He has 55% CC, so he doesn't need 2.74 AS. That's why I'm confused how it's exactly 2.74. Even a 1% difference in CC should change that 2.74 AS value. You need less AS/procs because your crit is higher. Or you need higher AS/procs because your crit is lower. How are they not directly linked like that? I guess the AS is far more important, and a slight change in AS means a large change in CC? Therefore AS is what's concentrated on the most?
Edited by PackersFTW#1402 on 1/21/2013 1:18 PM PST
So while I agree that I've enjoyed 2.73aps breakpoint, I think the OP raises an interesting point. I keep hearing a very large requirement needed for LoH and CC to function at 2.51aps.
But let's stop for a second and forget about individual experience and go back to what we know energy twister is doing. We know the difference between the 2.73aps and 2.50aps breakpoints is 36 ticks vs 33 ticks. So that that means if you want to proc CM and APoC as well at the 2.50, you need to compensate for a 9.09% difference. This is actually not that much if we go by the math. If I have 50%cc and 2.73 breakpoint that means I'm criting 0.3750 times per twisters per second: (36/6)*.125*.5 = 0.3750. So mathematically, we would predict we only need 5% more cc to compensate: (33/6)*0.125*.55 = 0.3781. If you are happy with 800Loh at 2.73aps, then you would want ~875.
BUT I could think that maybe you'd want a bit more, since you're also missing another 15% from the difference in attack speed (2.73aps vs 2.51aps) at full windup. This would be mathematically represented by say: 100*[1-(2.73-.95)/(2.5-.95)]=14.84%, where .95 is how many actions Frost Nova uses up per second. Taken together we would need then about +13%cc and 200LoH cover the difference in breakpoints. If this isn't the case, are we missing anything else? The ideal sounds like triggering at least 4 crits per second with energy twister (though this number seems low...):
Standard SNS (2.73aps/50cc): [(2.73-.95)*6]*(36/6)*0.125*.5 = 4.0050 crits per second
Slow SNS (2.50aps/63cc): [(2.5-.95)*6]*(33/6)*0.125*.63 = 4.0281 crits per second
The equation I'm using is assuming: crits per second = [number of energy twisters out at full windup]*[tick rate/second]*proc_coef*crit_chance.
And it's worth noting this is assuming you're exactly at the 2.73aps breakpoint and the 2.5aps breakpoint. If you assume a wizard say has 2.65aps, he would only need 57%cc to compensate for not having reached the 2.73aps breakpoint.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/21/2013 4:08 PM PST
Numbers with new source below; actually saved ~100m over 9iAS. MP7 is now my old MP5. RD? A joke. ONLY thing that I have to be careful on is firechains/molten, but my TP is refreshed instantly so I just 'port around the edges. Key runs are ~12 minutes (5 stacks, 5 minutes, finding act2 K/W, 5 minutes, killing him, 20 seconds :-). 10/12 from MP5 this weekend. I should be in Vegas baby LOL
But yeah, 'LoH rules' '2.5 sucks' LOL. Have fun with that...
Attacks per Second 2.51
+% Attack Speed 52%
Critical Hit Chance 55%
Critical Hit Damage 283%
Energy Twister - Wicked Wind
Total Damage/Cast 148974
Damage per Tick 6051 - 13374
Per Tick Crit 23174 - 51221
Life Steal/Hit Avg 834.25
Life on Hit/Hit Avg 59.38
LPS (APS*(LoH+LS)) 2240.43
AP/Crit 6.9%, +19 AP
Explosive Blast - Chain Reaction
Average Hit 57343.33
Damage Range 13974 - 30887
Critical Hit 53520 - 118296
Life Steal/Hit Avg 963.37
Life on Hit/Hit Avg 52.73
LPS (APS*(LoH+LS)) 2547.47
AP/Crit 6.1%, +19 AP
Diamond Skin - Diamond Shards
Average Hit 174098.9
Damage Range 42426 - 93775
Critical Hit 162492 - 359158
Life Steal/Hit Avg 513.13
Life on Hit/Hit Avg 79.33
LPS (APS*(LoH+LS)) 1485.36
AP/Crit 9.2%, +19 AP
(ps. I'll be liquidating all my overpriced iAS wands and !@#$ soon... :-)
^ can you test in FoS, or at least 1 in 2 Arreat? Even RC is fine. MP 7 or 8.
U bet -- I'll let you know how it goes! My offer to take my gear and test yourself in PTR is still on the table but nobody responded because I'm correct :-)
Something that bothers me is why the simulator states the CM Procs are so high. Isnt the formula for predicting energy twisters: (#ActiveTwisters)*(Tick Rate / second)*Proc Coefficient*Crit Chance? If so, it's almost as if the simulator is running with a proc rate of 0.25 for wicked wind.
Specifically, for a simulation where I had 10.09 active twisters and 2.81aps/55%cc (ww_targets_hit = 1, num_targets = 1), I got the Average CM procs per second = 9.36 (91.40% from WW). Which means 8.555 procs from wicked wind. However, using the above formula I get: (10.09)*(36/6)*0.125*0.55 = 4.1621 procs. That's 2.0555x more than it presumably should be. Am I missing something about estimating the procs from Wicked Wind? I thought the proc multiplier for CM was 1... or is it 2?
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/21/2013 7:49 PM PST
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