Diablo® III

Sledge Fist + New Rubies

Anyone done theorycrafting or testing?

Unfortunetly I'm having issues with AH and acquiring a new ruby or would do hard testing.

Wondering if Sledge Fists could become MP grinding worthwhile with the significant buff in weapon damage. Right now they're pretty much for a slower Uber death or great with groups. Sledge Fists OS could see another price bump if more uses become available especially with the highly coveted +attacks per second mod.

Looks like 15% weapon damage is max roll but there's been a lot of strange math when people try to figure out the actual benefits of the new rubies. Has anyone "hard tested?"
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 6:44 AM PST
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Are the rubies on the AH on ptr? how about ruby plans?

Ive got an OS sledgefist and loads of PTR gold - i could look into it later today.
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Tarzan yes I believe they are on the PTR AH put up by bliz for testing. Get at them!! Better yet pass me some gold so I can get one too!! =)
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I'm curious about this. Let us know your findings!
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I must be missing something... what's so special about the Sledge Fist?
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I'm curious as to why a Sledgefist would be any different than a normal weapon?

If swapping to a 150/150 gem is better for you normally, it will be with a Sledgefist. If it is not, then it won't be with a Sledgefist either.
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i think what they are trying to get at is sledgefist disadvantage of having very low dmg on the weapon, and if the ruby will actually do more than an emerald.

If you hit with a seldgefist that has 100 dps, giving it another 100% crit dmg wont matter much, but if u can increase that dps by 150, making it 250, the effect might be bigger than emerald.

maybe? :P
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01/25/2013 08:34 AMPosted by hong
I must be missing something... what's so special about the Sledge Fist?


Up to 50% chance of stunning, +aps affix and possibility for a socket. It's an amazing weapon that would be BiS for monks if only it wasnt so low-level. Now, the reason for the OP's question is that in slotting Marquise it might be possible to bring the weapon's DPS up to a level that would make the weapon acceptable for perma-wielding.
Edited by FuzzyWuzzy#1793 on 1/25/2013 8:41 AM PST
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I'm curious as to why a Sledgefist would be any different than a normal weapon?

If swapping to a 150/150 gem is better for you normally, it will be with a Sledgefist. If it is not, then it won't be with a Sledgefist either.


For one reason, the max roll of 15% damage would actually give less "damage" than 50% rolls from lvl 60 weapons. However Sledge Fist is unique in that it adds attacks to both weapons and it's significantly a lower base than lvl 60 weapons.

From the DH and PTR threads it still looks like no one has confirmed exactly how rubies work with respect to Damage %, attack speed (gears OR weapon aps), elemental damage, dual wielding, etc.

Yeah, my question was does rubies benefit more than emeralds (generally) for such a low base weapon with +attacks. And if so, are they creeping closer to being viable for "standard" grinding of low OR high MP.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 9:17 AM PST
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Yeah, my question was does rubies benefit more than emeralds (generally) for such a low base weapon with +attacks. And if so, are they creeping closer to being viable for "standard" grinding of low OR high MP.

But why would they?

This doesn't make any sense. You are gimping your DPS with a sledge fist, regardless of which gem you are using. Everyone accepts this. So instead of having totally gimped DPS from the SF, you upgrade to mostly totally gimped DPS from the SF ... and also gimp the rest of the damage you're doing by removing the 110% CD gem.

This really makes no sense, and unless that min/max damage from the Ruby interacts with weapons in a way we've never seen before (which doesn't make sense - why would they change it for the topmost ruby? All they said they were doing was buffing the #s so that it could stand up to CD), then it won't benefit anyone who has decent CC to switch from CD to Ruby, regardless of the DPS of their weapon.
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Yeah, my question was does rubies benefit more than emeralds (generally) for such a low base weapon with +attacks. And if so, are they creeping closer to being viable for "standard" grinding of low OR high MP.

But why would they?

This doesn't make any sense. You are gimping your DPS with a sledge fist, regardless of which gem you are using. Everyone accepts this. So instead of having totally gimped DPS from the SF, you upgrade to mostly totally gimped DPS from the SF ... and also gimp the rest of the damage you're doing by removing the 110% CD gem.

This really makes no sense, and unless that min/max damage from the Ruby interacts with weapons in a way we've never seen before (which doesn't make sense - why would they change it for the topmost ruby? All they said they were doing was buffing the #s so that it could stand up to CD), then it won't benefit anyone who has decent CC to switch from CD to Ruby, regardless of the DPS of their weapon.


The question is very simple.

... ... they are buffing rubies to come close to or possibly surpass emeralds, right?

SOOOO... is a Sledge Fist now more "usuable" in farming? If so... to what extent? Go check the DH forums and see just how insane Rubies make "some" weapons.

It doesn't sound like you have a very good grasp of Ruby mechanics. Sledge Fist will definitely interact differently than lvl 60 weapons if only by damage % but I suspect there will be other factors.

Hard testing is probably the solution. I'd love to share my data but I keep getting a damn AH error on PTR.

As others have mentioned Sledge Fist is SUPER useful to a Monk so the answer to my original question would seem to be very valuable info.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 1:04 PM PST
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01/25/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Piffle
All they said they were doing was buffing the #s so that it could stand up to CD), then it won't benefit anyone who has decent CC to switch from CD to Ruby, regardless of the DPS of their weapon


I think the rubies are intended to benefit people who have sufficiently low enough damage per swing on their weapons, have +damage% on their weapon, and get a significant amount of DPS from CD already. If I'm doing the calculations right, there may even be Monks all the way up to 150K DPS and 40% CC who might potentially benefit from the rubies.

As an example, I started to play with your character in d3up. Let's say you had a 7% IAS, 100% CD amulet instead of having CC on it. d3up is telling me that a ruby is very close to an emerald for you. If I tweak your hellfire ring a bit to use CD instead of CC, you actually prefer the ruby.

I had to tweak you down to 34% CC while more or less maintaining your DPS; but it's looking like there are at least some Monks who will benefit from the new red gems. Especially if they're using even lower damage per hit weapons than your EF and/or have more +% damage on them. Whether they will ever be a reasonable choice for someone who can actually afford them still remains to be seen.

They may also be of greater use to other classes like Wizards, or to anyone who is wielding a single weapon.

I think Blizzard probably did their homework on the rubies, though, and made sure that they are useful, but don't generally outshine emeralds at the ultra-high end. Otherwise, you have potential source of power creep.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 1/25/2013 1:07 PM PST
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One thing that hasnt been mentioned/overlooked is that Rubies provies "black" damage in the same way that average damage does on jewels. Wich means a build that'd consist of getting as much +%Ele damage as possible (maybe even enough to out-DPS current builds) might be plausible post-patch.

One person could, for example, dual wield two black damage weapons (lets say EF and Fist of 'Az) both with marquise rubies socketed into them and then get as many armor pieces with +%Elemental Dmg as possible for his class. I could see monks going inna's belt, zuni boots, WKL for instance.
Edited by FuzzyWuzzy#1793 on 1/25/2013 1:45 PM PST
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One thing that hasnt been mentioned/overlooked is that Rubies provies "black" damage in the same way that average damage does on jewels. Wich means a build that'd consist of getting as much +%Ele damage as possible (maybe even enough to out-DPS current builds) might be plausible post-patch.

One person could, for example, dual wield two black damage weapons (lets say EF and Fist of 'Az) both with marquise rubies socketed into them and then get as many armor pieces with +%Elemental Dmg as possible for his class. I could see monks going inna's belt, zuni boots, WKL for instance.


i have wkl/inna/zuni too... i will look into a tal rasha on ptr for even more elem dmg.

hope there is a ruby or 2 on the AH for sale when i get home from work...
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Eh... Most people don't use too much elemental damage, especially outside of TR builds that use Skorns, which as large slow weapons will tend to not favor rubies.

Anyway, if you're using all black weapons, a ruby raises your damage by the same percentage whether you have +% to element damage or not. An emerald also raises your damage by the same percentage whether you have +% to element or not.

Oddly, a ruby does start to shine more when you have weapon with lots of non-black damage and a bunch of +% element gear. But that begs the question, "Why are you gearing like that in the first place?".

The real place for rubies is going to be in weapons that have +%damage on them. Weapons with high +% damage and lower base damage (before the +% damage is taken into account) are going to be the main place where rubies benefit.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 1/25/2013 2:47 PM PST
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But why would they?

This doesn't make any sense. You are gimping your DPS with a sledge fist, regardless of which gem you are using. Everyone accepts this. So instead of having totally gimped DPS from the SF, you upgrade to mostly totally gimped DPS from the SF ... and also gimp the rest of the damage you're doing by removing the 110% CD gem.

This really makes no sense, and unless that min/max damage from the Ruby interacts with weapons in a way we've never seen before (which doesn't make sense - why would they change it for the topmost ruby? All they said they were doing was buffing the #s so that it could stand up to CD), then it won't benefit anyone who has decent CC to switch from CD to Ruby, regardless of the DPS of their weapon.


The question is very simple.

... ... they are buffing rubies to come close to or possibly surpass emeralds, right?

SOOOO... is a Sledge Fist now more "usuable" in farming? If so... to what extent? Go check the DH forums and see just how insane Rubies make "some" weapons.

It doesn't sound like you have a very good grasp of Ruby mechanics. Sledge Fist will definitely interact differently than lvl 60 weapons if only by damage % but I suspect there will be other factors.

Hard testing is probably the solution. I'd love to share my data but I keep getting a damn AH error on PTR.

As others have mentioned Sledge Fist is SUPER useful to a Monk so the answer to my original question would seem to be very valuable info.

Yes, a Sledge Fist is SUPER useful.

I still don't understand why a Sledge Fist is any different than any other weapon. It's the same question I've been asking for 3 posts now. Either you have severe limitations when it comes to reading comprehension, or you simply do not know the answer.

For example, you mentioned that it will probably interact differently with the % Damage on Sledge Fist, but you don't explain why or how that is. Why is the % Damage on a Sledge Fist different than the % Damage on my EF?

We know that in its current state, a Flawless Square Ruby will add 14 minimum damage and 28 maximum damage to a rare weapon with no % damage. We also know that, in its current state, a Flawless Square Ruby will add 19.04 minimum damage and 38.08 maximum damage to a weapon with 36% damage (this is just 14*1.36).

We know this, of course, because you check this in game (just verified myself, using TAG on before and after with the rubies).

And since all Blizzard has said they are doing is increasing the min/max numbers on a ruby, what makes you think they are going to completely change the way these values interact?

If changing the gem in my EF, which has 36% damage and +.23 aps, causes me to lose damage ... why would changing the gem in a Sledge Fist, which has 15% damage and .17 aps, cause me to gain damage?

Using a Sledge Fist from the AH that has 15% damage and .17 aps, and using the same type of interaction that we see with an EF ... I lose damage switching from a 100% CD gem (not marquise, btw) to a Marquiese Ruby.

Please explain what I am doing wrong, and why you think a Sledge Fist is different than any other weapon that has % Damage.

edit: Also like to point out that I have an Inna's belt, so this is even more in favor of the Ruby as well.


I think the rubies are intended to benefit people who have sufficiently low enough damage per swing on their weapons, have +damage% on their weapon, and get a significant amount of DPS from CD already. If I'm doing the calculations right, there may even be Monks all the way up to 150K DPS and 40% CC who might potentially benefit from the rubies.

I had to tweak you down to 34% CC while more or less maintaining your DPS

Right, so if you remove 30% of my crit chance it comes out ahead. But who builds that way when Cyclone is such a big part of our DPS?
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 1/25/2013 2:56 PM PST
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Piffle, I've been doing some more playing aronud with d3up.

I Imagined that jco had a socket in that leet axe of his instead of 100% CD. A ruby would actually be better for him than an emerald.

I was shocked when I checked this... I want someone else to check this as well.

I severely underestimated the value of rubies at first. I completely discounted the effect of that +%damage. Rubies are much better than I thought. More and more, I'm finding uses for them. To be honest, I'm starting to think they're going to represent a substantial level power creep in the game.

(EDIT: It's not even close. He gets like 15K DPS)
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 1/25/2013 3:26 PM PST
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Yes, a Sledge Fist is SUPER useful.

I still don't understand why a Sledge Fist is any different than any other weapon. It's the same question I've been asking for 3 posts now. Either you have severe limitations when it comes to reading comprehension, or you simply do not know the answer.

For example, you mentioned that it will probably interact differently with the % Damage on Sledge Fist, but you don't explain why or how that is. Why is the % Damage on a Sledge Fist different than the % Damage on my EF?

We know that in its current state, a Flawless Square Ruby will add 14 minimum damage and 28 maximum damage to a rare weapon with no % damage. We also know that, in its current state, a Flawless Square Ruby will add 19.04 minimum damage and 38.08 maximum damage to a weapon with 36% damage (this is just 14*1.36).

We know this, of course, because you check this in game (just verified myself, using TAG on before and after with the rubies).

And since all Blizzard has said they are doing is increasing the min/max numbers on a ruby, what makes you think they are going to completely change the way these values interact?

If changing the gem in my EF, which has 36% damage and +.23 aps, causes me to lose damage ... why would changing the gem in a Sledge Fist, which has 15% damage and .17 aps, cause me to gain damage?

Using a Sledge Fist from the AH that has 15% damage and .17 aps, and using the same type of interaction that we see with an EF ... I lose damage switching from a 100% CD gem (not marquise, btw) to a Marquiese Ruby.

Please explain what I am doing wrong, and why you think a Sledge Fist is different than any other weapon that has % Damage.

edit: Also like to point out that I have an Inna's belt, so this is even more in favor of the Ruby as well.



I don't know the answer which is why I proposed the thread.

Weapon Damage % is capped much lower on Sledge Fist compared to a lvl 60 item. This is the ONLY difference I explicitly stated so no clue what you are asking me what I'm asking... ugh, semantics.

*also there are lots of weapons worth 100s of millions with less "damage %" than a Sledge Fist so it's not black and white when comparing

Using a Sledge Fist from the AH that has 15% damage and .17 aps, and using the same type of interaction that we see with an EF ... I lose damage switching from a 100% CD gem (not marquise, btw) to a Marquiese Ruby.

Please explain what I am doing wrong, and why you think a Sledge Fist is different than any other weapon that has % Damage.


Seriously?! You tested this? If so, thanks! That's the answer I was mostly looking for though there are a few other minor factors. But if you net lose DPS... there's pretty much no hope.

I thought for sure there was a decent chance of a Sledge Fist being more usuable as a farming tool after seeing some crazy differences (gains of 100-300k in DPS !! comparing Ruby to Emerald) from other weapons posted on DH forum and elsewhere. Again, there seems to be confusion over min-max/black/elemental/aps (gear or weapon)/etc. so doing the math before testing probably isn't worthwhile. But again if you tested it, thanks!


I was shocked when I checked this... I want someone else to check this as well.

I severely underestimated the value of rubies at first. I completely discounted the effect of that +%damage. Rubies are much better than I thought. More and more, I'm finding uses for them. To be honest, I'm starting to think they're going to represent a substantial level power creep in the game.

(EDIT: It's not even close. He gets like 15K DPS)


YES. ...I tried to include that into the original post and is why (I thought) Sledge Fist could actually be worthwhile as a farming tool. Go look at some of the higher geared Demon Hunters... they were getting 100-300k GAINS from a Ruby over Emerald.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 3:44 PM PST
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** Here's a copy/paste of recent chatter going on in the other forums --->

instead of adding 150/150 Manticore adds 150/215, it doesn't add 150/300 like a black and not like any other elemental weapon. I think its a 2 socket bug.
That's exactly the way currently "black" damage is calculated. Your calculations are just wrong.

For Manticore maxdam calculations are:
1 socket:
((414 + 150 + 150) * %dam) + poison maxdam
2 sockets
((414 + 150 +150 +150 + 150) * %dam) + poison maxdam

I believe you have not yet see a manticore with Marquise Ruby. Darba has a better explanation on his post. Adding 1 Marquise Ruby to the weapon will never give you +150min/+300max as you will lose some of the bonus, because it is a elemental weapon.


As you can see it's more complicated than 150/150 and seems possible that the max might get a "double bonus" being a black weapon in addition to the 10-15% damage increase.

So if it's a significant buff along with also giving your MH +0.15-0.17 attacks, it seems very possible Sledge Fist could be a real farming tool by inserting a new ruby instead of an emerald.

...which is why I asked about "hard testing." But, if Piffle did this and there is a net decrease in DPS then obviously there is no hope.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 4:10 PM PST
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