Diablo® III

1.07 FoT/Cyclone build nerf, thoughts?

90 Human Priest
LA
5535
Generally from what I've been reading removal of the snapshot is leading to a general decrease in overall effective DPS, from 3% up to 15%. Now I agree with the removal of pure 'snapshot' monks, decreasing the standard build effectiveness kinda sucks. Sure build diversity would be great not having to have bf just for sw buff, but there's nothing good to replace it in this build.

The changes may increase our farming, but for top-end damage on bosses/ubers we're receiving a nerf. Considering we're still outclassed by barb's in nearly all departments (nearly - at least as far as high mp/ubers goes), this kind of bugs me. Perma WoTB/HotA demolishes our top end damage, and we only serve to make them better.

Spirit spenders aren't going to be as effective on single target as overawe spam, especially in a group, even the big bells. Now cyclones use both weapons for damage, a gift and a curse: gift that we don't have to worry about which hand we cast sw on, curse if you have discrepancies in the dmg of your weapons. No other significant buffs have been given to other spirit gens, so as far as I can tell, cookie cutter is still going to be the uber build of choice.

SUMMARY: as far as i can tell our single target/uber wrecking build is receiving a nerf rather than a buff. while farming builds are getting some possible minor buffs, something should be done to offset the lose of the normal kind of snapshot. I may be wrong, if someone has numbers/tested (mp10 azmo/ghom kills preferably) something that actually increases eDPS in the new patch, I'm all ears.
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I like to look at this as glass half full.

Currently SW is not updating as your recieve new buffs from when you used it, in 1.0.7 this is not the case, someone shows up and guiding light kicks in, no need to recast SW to recieve the bonus. Just as one example.

Sure with fights like ubers where once its up, its up for the fight the net effect is pretty minor maybe just some dps lost at the start either waiting for all the buffs to kick in or someone being slow.

Basically 1.0.7 fixes an irritating negative aspect of the snapshot, not just the abuse of the mechanic.

In regards to HoTA barbs, meh, I play with a few from time to time, doesn't bother me to get outclassed by someone in 1/8th the gear (price wise). Every class doesn't need to do the same damage. I didn't pick to play monk based off how well it compared to other classes, it was a choice made based on play style.
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For me at least, this patch is entirely positive. I don't use Blinding Flash or gear swapping, and my buffup sequence becomes a lot simpler: no need to cast BoH and get the boosts from Combo Strike and DR/Foresight first.

And really, I would bet money that the people taking on ubers at MP10 constitute a tiny, tiny minority of the D3 playerbase. It just happens to be the minority that is most likely to post on forums.
Edited by hong#6510 on 1/25/2013 8:59 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
For me at least, this patch is entirely positive. I don't use Blinding Flash or gear swapping, and my buffup sequence becomes a lot simpler: no need to cast BoH and get the boosts from Combo Strike and DR/Foresight first.

And really, I would bet money that the people taking on ubers at MP10 constitute a tiny, tiny minority of the D3 playerbase. It just happens to be the minority that is most likely to post on forums.


Sure it becomes simpler but it lowers your damage output. It's regardless of mp level, whether or not its mp3 ubers or mp10 it's a nerf to the build, not just the top-end.
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Er, no; like I said, it's a buff for me. It's only a nerf if you were in the habit of snapshotting BF/FitL. In fact, I'd also bet money that most people playing monks will see a buff, either because a) they're not snapshotting; b) they're not using cyclone.
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
It's a nerf on our ceiling, which is the issue, and our ceiling is already lower than others. If they're not using cyclone they're not doing it right anyways, or TR'ing.
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Spirit spenders aren't going to be as effective on single target as overawe spam, especially in a group, even the big bells. Now cyclones use both weapons for damage, a gift and a curse: gift that we don't have to worry about which hand we cast sw on, curse if you have discrepancies in the dmg of your weapons. No other significant buffs have been given to other spirit gens, so as far as I can tell, cookie cutter is still going to be the uber build of choice.


Yes they are. Not only for single target (Ubers) but also grinding MP.

Go get ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance. Change Thunderclap to Quickening. Pick up WoL-Empowered Wave. Go Overawe, bell, bell bell, etc. (until overawe debuff gone) then repeat. Time your run then compare it to your previous Thunderclap/Overawe build. You will see MINUTES in difference (or seconds for Ubers depending on your DPS). Also if you are crafty enough, working in Blinding Flash damage buff with or without Overawe will give you INSANELY high bell damage. The WoL buff along with Quickening is so strong that even runs where I got lazy and didn't spam Overawe and mostly only bells were STILL faster than the old cookie cutter.

Feel free to chime back in the thread after testing the above ;) ... I've tested it thoroughly and we received a huge buff thanks to WoL. AGAIN, ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance is REQUIRED or you will not generate enough spirit to match the old cookie cutter build.

*see my profile for a great example
... I'm liking Exalted Soul for burst against Elites but it isn't necessary
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/25/2013 10:14 AM PST
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01/25/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Muckery
It's a nerf on our ceiling, which is the issue, and our ceiling is already lower than others. If they're not using cyclone they're not doing it right anyways, or TR'ing.

The right way to fix the ceiling is to get the mechanic working as intended and then tweak the numbers so the ceiling is as high as the devs wants it to be. Snapshot skews their ability to see the ceiling.
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
01/25/2013 10:51 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
It's a nerf on our ceiling, which is the issue, and our ceiling is already lower than others. If they're not using cyclone they're not doing it right anyways, or TR'ing.

The right way to fix the ceiling is to get the mechanic working as intended and then tweak the numbers so the ceiling is as high as the devs wants it to be. Snapshot skews their ability to see the ceiling.


I completely agree with you on this one. I might be jumping the gun on it but I don't see them adjusting cyclone past where it is, or fot for that matter.
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
01/25/2013 10:09 AMPosted by blhotz
Spirit spenders aren't going to be as effective on single target as overawe spam, especially in a group, even the big bells. Now cyclones use both weapons for damage, a gift and a curse: gift that we don't have to worry about which hand we cast sw on, curse if you have discrepancies in the dmg of your weapons. No other significant buffs have been given to other spirit gens, so as far as I can tell, cookie cutter is still going to be the uber build of choice.


Yes they are. Not only for single target (Ubers) but also grinding MP.

Go get ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance. Change Thunderclap to Quickening. Pick up WoL-Empowered Wave. Go Overawe, bell, bell bell, etc. (until overawe debuff gone) then repeat. Time your run then compare it to your previous Thunderclap/Overawe build. You will see MINUTES in difference (or seconds for Ubers depending on your DPS). Also if you are crafty enough, working in Blinding Flash damage buff with or without Overawe will give you INSANELY high bell damage. The WoL buff along with Quickening is so strong that even runs where I got lazy and didn't spam Overawe and mostly only bells were STILL faster than the old cookie cutter.

Feel free to chime back in the thread after testing the above ;) ... I've tested it thoroughly and we received a huge buff thanks to WoL. AGAIN, ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance is REQUIRED or you will not generate enough spirit to match the old cookie cutter build.

*see my profile for a great example
... I'm liking Exalted Soul for burst against Elites but it isn't necessary


I was messing about with quickening and bells while farming, the loss of the teleport while farming bugs me, especially with an EF. Also the loss of the aoe attack on TC kinda sucks for regular damage/cyclone gen/ls/loh (but bells overheal you like crazy i guess). Compensated for the loss of teleport with dashing strike, but still miss the teleport.

Intrigued by the idea of quickening+bells for ubers though.

http://d3up.com/b/52940
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/punisher-1922/hero/46964
^my monk - anyone know how to ditch the wow profile on the left?
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snip


I think the real point being made by the OP in response to what you're bringing up is not just situational DPS increase, but sustained dps. You've proposed some idea of how to accomplish a dps increase, though I believe Fitz tested a number of builds on the PTR and found post testing, that there was still an overall dps loss.

I'd be more curious to see your build suggestion with some actual figures in comparison to the current snapshot of BF:FiTL figures.
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Its a buff to my damage ceiling.

I took a 6.5%~ nerf in damage. This damage was the difference between a Current Snapshot Sweeping Wind and a PTR noshapshot sweeding wind.

My clear times weren't impacted significantly and my burst DPS increased.

In my Dual-Wield build I generate 50~ s/sec with FoT: TC. Bell isn't a problem for me to use.

My dual-wield build/gear has...a lot of attack speed.
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While I haven't been playing the PTR I have been messing around with different builds this past week.

Outside of the PTR bells are not viable as the damage is not high enough to be on the toolbar as of yet and I for some reason ran into problems with reflect packs while using it. I am not sure if it was just bad packs or if the proc rate w loh/ls is differant with that skill although it shouldn't be. I picked up dash a couple days ago and it seems to work ok and has a larger dash range than the FoT. To accomodate this I also added sweeping wind fire storm for a larger aoe. Tonight I will try quickening but I don't think my cc is quite high enough to be viable at this point to try bells again. The problem now is I don't really have a spammable spirit spender. My ias is possibly high enough to drop FoT while using Retribution all together but I haven't gone that far as of yet.
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01/25/2013 10:09 AMPosted by blhotz
Spirit spenders aren't going to be as effective on single target as overawe spam, especially in a group, even the big bells. Now cyclones use both weapons for damage, a gift and a curse: gift that we don't have to worry about which hand we cast sw on, curse if you have discrepancies in the dmg of your weapons. No other significant buffs have been given to other spirit gens, so as far as I can tell, cookie cutter is still going to be the uber build of choice.


Yes they are. Not only for single target (Ubers) but also grinding MP.

Go get ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance. Change Thunderclap to Quickening. Pick up WoL-Empowered Wave. Go Overawe, bell, bell bell, etc. (until overawe debuff gone) then repeat. Time your run then compare it to your previous Thunderclap/Overawe build. You will see MINUTES in difference (or seconds for Ubers depending on your DPS). Also if you are crafty enough, working in Blinding Flash damage buff with or without Overawe will give you INSANELY high bell damage. The WoL buff along with Quickening is so strong that even runs where I got lazy and didn't spam Overawe and mostly only bells were STILL faster than the old cookie cutter.

Feel free to chime back in the thread after testing the above ;) ... I've tested it thoroughly and we received a huge buff thanks to WoL. AGAIN, ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance is REQUIRED or you will not generate enough spirit to match the old cookie cutter build.

*see my profile for a great example
... I'm liking Exalted Soul for burst against Elites but it isn't necessary

I've tried this. It was not a DPS gain over the generic Cookie Cutter build.

Soz.
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01/25/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Muckery


Yes they are. Not only for single target (Ubers) but also grinding MP.

Go get ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance. Change Thunderclap to Quickening. Pick up WoL-Empowered Wave. Go Overawe, bell, bell bell, etc. (until overawe debuff gone) then repeat. Time your run then compare it to your previous Thunderclap/Overawe build. You will see MINUTES in difference (or seconds for Ubers depending on your DPS). Also if you are crafty enough, working in Blinding Flash damage buff with or without Overawe will give you INSANELY high bell damage. The WoL buff along with Quickening is so strong that even runs where I got lazy and didn't spam Overawe and mostly only bells were STILL faster than the old cookie cutter.

Feel free to chime back in the thread after testing the above ;) ... I've tested it thoroughly and we received a huge buff thanks to WoL. AGAIN, ~2.00 attack speed and ~50% crit chance is REQUIRED or you will not generate enough spirit to match the old cookie cutter build.

*see my profile for a great example
... I'm liking Exalted Soul for burst against Elites but it isn't necessary


I was messing about with quickening and bells while farming, the loss of the teleport while farming bugs me, especially with an EF. Also the loss of the aoe attack on TC kinda sucks for regular damage/cyclone gen/ls/loh (but bells overheal you like crazy i guess). Compensated for the loss of teleport with dashing strike, but still miss the teleport.

Intrigued by the idea of quickening+bells for ubers though.

http://d3up.com/b/52940
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/punisher-1922/hero/46964
^my monk - anyone know how to ditch the wow profile on the left?

add me i'll show you the build to farm with bell while using quickening, my english is not good enough to explain it on the forum.
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
Its a buff to my damage ceiling.

I took a 6.5%~ nerf in damage. This damage was the difference between a Current Snapshot Sweeping Wind and a PTR noshapshot sweeding wind.

My clear times weren't impacted significantly and my burst DPS increased.

In my Dual-Wield build I generate 50~ s/sec with FoT: TC. Bell isn't a problem for me to use.

My dual-wield build/gear has...a lot of attack speed.


50 spirit per sec is an impossibility, even with 'a lot of attack speed', might be a possibility with quickening
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Blhotz has been spewing that crap over every forum thread. He is full of !@#$.

Single target dps has been nerfed.

If it hasn't for you, it is because you don't what you're doing.
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90 Human Priest
LA
5535
Blhotz has been spewing that crap over every forum thread. He is full of !@#$.

Single target dps has been nerfed.

If it hasn't for you, it is because you don't what you're doing.


Thumbs up to you sir.
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Blhotz has been spewing that crap over every forum thread. He is full of !@#$.

Single target dps has been nerfed.

If it hasn't for you, it is because you don't what you're doing.

And everywhere he has spewed it, I have asked him to post some sort of proof/tests/details ... and he has yet to do so anywhere.
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still a nerf... if you werent gear swapping snapshot you were doing it wrong. all the math spewed in monk threads only show snapshot with skills compared to blizz lolbuffs. you dont see the true nerf hidden behind a pile of half assed garbage buffs
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