Diablo® III

Monster density: Let's be honest

I feel like they could leave monster density alone if they just let players utilize all waypoints across all four acts while keeping neph valor up. I would definitely add festering woods, crypts, leoric's manor, archives, oasis, and silver spires to my farming run if I could.

I feel like monster density increases would ruin some of the feel of the game. Act 3 should have more monsters... you are in the process of stopping a demon siege! Act 1 and Act 2 help to build the sense of urgency, so it would be ridiculous to just load them up with more random demons and undead for the sake of farming efficiency.

For Acts 1 and 2, perhaps the compromise would be to add more intense battles rather than fighting a bunch of enemies in groups of 3s. One of the best parts in Act 1 is when all of the ghouls climb up the wall and rush you after you kill the Jailer... not because it's hard, but because it creates a sense of urgency. Also, maybe make the events spawn a lot more monsters.... perhaps you could run into an NPC somewhere in the Cathedral who is desperately trying to bar a door, which, upon opening, unleashes a BUNCH of enemies (not just a few skeletons and one of the pathetically weak purple dudes).

I could get on board with more monster density in Act 4. That is the final battle! You are rising to the pinnacle of heaven and Diablo should be sending everything he (she?) has at you!! I think Silver Spire is fine... but the earlier areas are kind of a wasteland and the side areas are completely worthless.

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for listening, Blizz!
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If the debate is to add monster density then make it an option for us in the menu of monster power.

like...
monster power 1
monster power 1+ (+ means any random density up to double ie x1.2, x1.3, x1.4)

...but it is RANDOM to keep the spirit alive that you never know so between 110% to 200% density.
Edited by sonoranranch#1216 on 1/24/2013 5:44 AM PST
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The way the monster density is right now is definitely unbalanced. I can see why they would make Act I/II have lower amounts as you are going through the game the first time and want to ease your way into the game. However, the higher difficulties should definitely scale this up to make "hell" and "inferno" mode be true to their names.

I do agree with the idea of a "Monster density" slider. For those saying people would abuse it by just selecting MP0 and cranking density to the max, my reply would be "So what?" There is hardly a benefit, aside from minor stats and MF/GF, to paragon leveling faster. The drop rate is already so abysmal that you could crank 100x more monsters out of an act and still be shafted with Sultan swords and frost gloves. Just keep cranking the dial until it breaks, I say.

If you cannot adjust the acts themselves, then add new dungeons that are available after you beat Inferno Diablo. Might as well give him SOME use in the game. After you beat him, dungeons called "Demons' Den" unlock in each act. You start in the Act I version. A randomly generated area in which the monsters are stronger (insert double joke here) and far more numerous. Act I will be a starter dungeon which is only ten floors long with a boss at the end. The boss will drop a key item that lets you go to the Act II den, etc. Dungeons become longer but the density/strength remains the same (Act II, 20 floors; Act III, 30 floors; IV, 40). Add new unique legendary/set items that have a higher chance of dropping in a specific act (I read all the time people like the idea of being able to farm specific areas for specific items), but still can drop in other acts albeit at a lower rate. For example, a new armor set where the helmet drops in act I, gloves act II, legs, act III, boots act IV.

Honestly that last part wouldn't probably be implemented until an expansion, but I think that it could resolve many of the monotonous, repetitive issues this game has.
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in my opinion, monster density should be nerfed in act 3 to match act 1 and 2
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A good example of monster density control can be found in the Left4Dead games, imo. The game's AI, named "the Director", cranks up the monster density or lowers it based on how the players are doing. The end result is that the game is always challenging.

I believe this could work for Diablo III as well. It could even replace the whole Monster Power thing. You just enter a game (let's say inferno act 1) with four players and start fighting. (At what is now MP0 - normal density) If all players have insane stats and kill the monsters in one blow the game adjusts immediately and sends harder monsters. How many there are is controlled in the same manner. Also, the better the players are, the less health globes and shrines they encounter.

From a design perspective however, I do see some difficulties:
-creating the AI, because the game was designed in a completely different way (it's almost like building a new game)
-deciding the rewards for the player (XP / drops)
-deciding the difficulty when there is a large gap in player stats/skill

Anyone else in favor of a randomizing - all knowing AI to keep the game challenging for all levels?
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Act 2 is a perfect example...the only real density of monsters is in desolate sands and the later dungeon levels. Nothing you can bank on for experience or farming though. Maybe there needs to be an increase in monsters for the small side events you can encounter? I was expecting a lot more monsters in the middle coil of the skeletal spiral chest in act 2 Desolate. Too easy...
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If monster density for each act is scaled up then players will still farm act 3 because it still has higher relative density.

If only act 1 and 2 is scaled up then players will still go to act 3 for experience farming because on mp0 it has lvl 63 mobs for greater exp gain compared to lvl 61 and 62 on acts 1 and 2.

While SC players like The Keep lvl 2 it is a really bad place for HC due to the Fallen Maniacs. Top lvl gear is not so easily available in HC and no matter how carefully played there always comes a time when a couple of Fallen Maniacs sneak up due to the visibility issue (half way through a door) and the hardcore player is dead. If Fallen Maniacs would at least be in an outdoor setting where they can always be spotted it wouldn't be so bad, but when a bunch can hide behind a door and just opening it results in immediate death then it becomes nothing but a gear check. Either change how gear drops in HC (improve it compared to SC) or get rid of some of these gear checks. HC does not have RMAH and very low amounts of extremely expensive good gear. And the good gear constantly leaves the game due to player death yet HC players are forced to play on the same map as SC players who have access to super cheap and very plentiful good gear. End result is that I avoid the keep lvl 2 after I had a lvl 60 monk die to some fallen maniacs that were not visible because the walls of the room still blocked the view even though the monk was several yards inside the room.

What I really dislike about the mobs is things like Fallen Maniacs in act 3 and the wasps in Act 2 that are very lowly monsters that can be very deadly if an elite jailer or vortex happens by. I don't mind the elite, its that these lowly monsters have a killing capacity beyond their stature. Elites cannot deliver as much poison damage in as short a time as these critters can so it doesn't seem well balanced. Of course I'm not talking about SC, I stopped caring about that a long time ago because it really doesn't matter if there is a death, heck you're even getting rid of the death timer so these brave SC players can go die again without the wait, like it really matters.
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I'll tell you where it got disappointing...there is a monster numbers up for additional players in the game. But for additional MP? If you have, I sure haven't noticed. Increase monster numbers with MP. That would actually make the MP challenging again especially with monster numbers and scaling equal to if 10 players were currently in the game. That sounds ridiculously hard but at least rewarding as you go up.
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With 1.0.7 on the way and expecting a monster density system designed on just about everything written in all the above posts about this certain topic, for me it would feel like Diablo 3 is "done" with big patches that involve new stuff apart from changes to pvp maybe...

Ofcourse there could always be other stuff added to the game at some point or in an expansion but right now with all of this the game would be satisfying enough for me to at least keep playing the game for a very long time.

My english isn't so good but I try. =)
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Who am I: DH on Alkeizer run only stop to pick up legend + gem + lvl63 gear, w each pickup slowing me down more.
Current farming route: Kill Azmodan check pt, back to core WP, to Tower Curse WP for 1 elite, then back track through to Crater 2 WP, to Rakkis WP, to Bridge WP (doing round clock run in fields then down to 6 o’clock for WP) to Keeps 3 WP, to Keep 1 for 1 elite and town to quit.
Rinse and repeat 3-4 times, taking about 23min/run, and then I need a break
My dmg is puny with dual peashooters (just 80k) so only can do no MP in solo. I can party with stronger friends for MP2/3, but feel bad when I become a drag for them, but I find rewards are marginally better on successive MP jumps
The merits of this route is the overall mob density is very high compared to other runs, with straight forward route and no time wasting on town portal (sometimes I tp in fields and not run to bridge WP). My build is for speed, and I never stop for any strays often leaving behind several monsters from pack so I don’t waste time chasing them down.
That kind of intensity to plough through 4 acts in 2-2.5 hours or so (or at least under 3hr for some classes that can’t buff movement like barb/DH) with no drop in efficiency will be great (not sure about time here, may take longer w NPC chats to progress).
Will be hard to point out exactly which areas need higher density, as there are so many maps and mandatory check points for the whole 4 acts, but a testing team banding together to test run a few days will have it pat down. But you have a great starter in terms of density with all the suggestions above like Leoric’s, Vault, Crater 2 and Keeps 2, also beginning of Act 4 with all the shadow crawlies.
My biggest pet peeves are snakes in Act 2, that disappear and you cannot hit them until you give them a standing target and wait for them to catch up to you. both oasis spots are very bad with a lot of these. The fatsos in Act 3 slow me down by casting huge defense buffs for other monsters, but I just kill them first in the pack, or if they’re an elite pack, then I clean other monsters first, then stand between them and finish them one by one (it’s extra painful when they have fire chains and molten, but my life leech allows me to tank on no MP). Also I’m forced to abandon whole packs of pterodactyls that take too long to swoop in before I engage them. If not for them, field would have very good density. No complaints for act 1 monsters except for the huge bulls that charge you. Mix them in with the poison trees and I think most people would agree that they will have to spend a lot to gear up enough to face tank and kill this tandem that does huge dmg yet has a lot of HP. But hey, tough monsters are meant to be tough right? I kite the most when having to face them (ie waste the most time), but do find them a fun challenge. Same goes for higher MP in reducing efficiency. Currently geared to dish out as many arrows as possible yet have enough life and amour to take a few big hits and life leech to tank mobs w more life. I can see myself doing MP2 solo if I upgrade all me gear and change to night stalker and fire at will.
A similar investment/reward run for Act 2 I see, is circle around Canyon Mines, WP to Path Oasis, reverse “S” to catch elites in middle, connect to Dahlgur Oasis and repeat (bonus if tomb spawns, lot of elites there – please make it permanent!), WP/tp to Kulle’s archives (depends where WP spawns), Kulle, tp, WP to Desolate Sands, circle round map and drain into middle killing everything and enter all cave/vaults. Only recommend higher density in both oasis and desolate (will also fix the snake problem, as they are obviously less annoying in Vault of Assassins where density is much higher, and they can catch up when you move on and stop to meet the next pack). This would be a run that matches my version of Alkeizer run above in terms of engagement vs reward vs time investment.
For these runs, I imagine my friends and I would like to cut out as many maps w random generation that has dead end split paths, cos retracing cleared paths is like an ineffable drag when our killing spree is interrupted (Keep2 and Crater 2 are exceptions due to highest mob density – and I think I recognize at least all the maps that can be generated for crater by now and go straight for WP path and cut out dead ends unless it’s a short circle with elite spawn reward and minimal retracing). Also, directly connecting WP are 10x better than tp then WP to new map.
Have to think about Act 1, but simply dumping more monsters in all of the open fields will work. Also more in halls and make Tower spawn permanent at highlands, and maybe even the mine event in fields. Can’t imagine how insane that would be and the return will be tremendously better than the other 2 paths above, so maybe not such a good idea here. ;)
I think Act4 needs least change, and it has a pretty straight forward path.
In terms of enticing players into the RPG element, I suggest an extra stack for Nephalem Valor that can be maintained through successive acts (ie cap NV5 in Act1, 6 in Act2, 7 in Act3, 8 in Act4). I guarantee this will give new meaning to marathon gaming. With this goal in mind, maybe can add minimal spawn increases, and I think it gives an extremely playable alternative to repetitive runs.
My first post ever. Yes it’s too long. Forgive me if it was a boring read.
Big thanks to friend, Mike, that showed me the run.
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This is a very good idea... having a Mobs density level(MDL) to select.

may I implement the idea with if chosen a MDL-1 then auto select MP-1 and so on, so we can keep a certain level of difficulties trough this system.

Great input OP

+1 (and Codos to infinity)
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I would probably choose MP3 with MDL 3 for my farming..
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It's really not just about farming efficiency. It's just FUN to plow through giant groups of enemies.
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All I want is the same density as a3 in the other acts. Fields of Misery needs to be as full as Fields of Slaughter. Maybe add a check box or something next to monster power. Just a simple toggle.

With that said, I would not complain if density was bumped up in a few areas. I made a chart of most of the areas for a3 for experience per min and theres is a pretty big gap between some areas.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzMwhMjjRSZGRjhFc3hUeHhhX00/edit
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Easy fix.
Have Mob density scale with Dificulty.

I understand completely the apprehension on Blizzards part to make Act 1 and Act 2 have tons of mobs. When you first start the game i couldnt imagine the hairpulling that would occur when you have 2 skills and you are forced to wade through endless waves of on screen mobs. Also with increased density the leveling curve along with combined MP level increase would just be insane. YOu would be in act 3 Nightmare and be level 60 already...

If they just scale it with dificu;ty it would create a dificulty curve without making it entirely too mediocre or insane.
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01/23/2013 10:51 PMPosted by Grimiku
Your ideas on the subject are certainly welcome (in fact, the question of "what mob density would you choose?" is a great one to debate) and we hope that you will continue post them.


Here's the thing - our toons are (eventually) supposed to be these ultimately powerful entities who can lay claim to having smacked town errant Horadric mages, demon lords, and the entire army of Hell. I love seeing mobs die in droves, and feeling the pressure of walls of death pouring in from all sides. I love the Jar of Souls event in Act 1. I loved the portion of that old gameplay video (with the Barb and Witch Doctor) in which the Barb gets surrounded by zombies, who keep coming in waves. I love sending body parts flying across the screen, in carefree defiance of physics. That's what Diablo games are all about, at least for me.

And frankly, I want that feeling in more acts than Act 3, but I also want the density increase to make sense. If overall mob density is increased in the lower acts, I want more moments that smash me against waves of things that need killing. More bodies flying, more carnage, and MORE EXPLOSIONS! (Sorry - WoW reference). Allow me to elaborate... Hell has a pretty small army, if the divisions we fight out by the ballistae are really the entire warhost. Act One has the Jar of Souls event, but that's random. Leoric practically murdered an entire town, and while many of the old inhabitants were killed in previous games, Tyrael's fall from the High Heavens brought all of them back in the first place (as the skeletons you chew through), so certainly there could be multiple generations of inhabitants buried nearby. Plus, D3 establishes that the demonic host is immortal, so shouldn't its members just come back for more? Finally, there are all of the (equally immortal) mobs in D1 and D2 that don't appear in D3, so there's plenty of room for more than mindless zombies. If we have demonic summoners in the basement funhouse of Leoric's estate, why not bring back some of the classic enemies? If nothing else, there are plenty of devilkin/goatmen from older games that could be brought back, and they already exist in D3, so there's no issue of having to create something entirely new.

Further, in Act Two, you have the build-up to the final showdown with the Lord of Lies, just after the meteor bombardment - the "Scouring of Caldeum," IIRC. That's a great event, but honestly, sometimes I ignore the cowards beneath their carts in order to kill the minions who seem to pour out of nowhere. I love how each person in the palace - including the people running scared - is really a minion in disguise. You can't tell me that we couldn't have a few more maps like that, to at least make the city feel like the bustling metropolis that the game purports it to be. I don't need more bugs in the desert, because that doesn't make much sense, and the desert portions get a little old (for me, anyway). There can be room for more than just snakes, too - I'm sure that there are some cultists out for revenge after our heroes kill their glorious leader. They wouldn't be hard to co-opt.

Maybe my rant was too long, so the TL;DR - increasing density is a good thing, but you don't have to increase it uniformly in all parts of Acts 1 and 2. Instead, increase it in areas where increased density make sense with the story, and give players some "breathing room" in-between.
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01/24/2013 05:42 AMPosted by masaia
The way the monster density is right now is definitely unbalanced. I can see why they would make Act I/II have lower amounts as you are going through the game the first time and want to ease your way into the game. However, the higher difficulties should definitely scale this up to make "hell" and "inferno" mode be true to their names.


I agree with this. For story purposes it wouldn't make sense to have 50 zombies every screen. Poor rumford would never survive! oh wait.... :( Anyways inferno is in fact where everyone strives to be because that is where 99% of the good loot is and even if you do care about the story (which very few do) playing the game on the highest difficulty isn't about enjoying the story.
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i farm only act 3 reallly. if i could get a comparable amount of xp and elites from other acts i would do the others no prob
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Its more about getting the mob density in a1/a2 to the same level it is in a3. Making a1/a2 viable options for farming

^this

And I'd throw Act 4 in there too as wanting more monster density. Act 4 is Sort of hard because it's to much long pasages and not enough larger areas, but likely what is done is done as I can't see them changing the map layout, though I would support it.
Edited by AxeLord#1992 on 1/24/2013 7:14 AM PST
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