Diablo® III

Monster density: Let's be honest

I'm the maker of CrAzYmOd back in D2 and D2exp. a mod that increased the density of monster by 10 per group and 5 times the amount of groups on a single map. No exp, or drop increase.

I made it just for the fact i like to just go rampage and send hundreds of head flying per second. It different fun. After a while you get fed up a bit but i swich it off the mod and continue normally. So having an option for scaling density of monster is my favorite idea. like that i can ramp up and down as much as i want and god knows i would like to max density on wirmshire just to see how CrAzY that is :)
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I think that maybe AFTER you beat INFERNO DIABLO one time then the option for mob density to match that of A3 to take effect in the other 3 acts should be an option. Now should this just be an option for that character that beat the game or all characters? I am so bored with the story mode, maybe I should have just played to 60 with all charaters, one or two at a time because I dont even bother with the dialog from characters most of the time. Maybe I wll just save it for when a character is inferno and I need to get dialog outta the way.
Having more than 4 heck more than 8 players in the same game would be a big improvement. Why have to deal with the worst parts of an mmo in an arpg and not some of the better parts of an mmo? More players make the game fun, unless of course everyone is Kill Stealing.
Edited by Skunkleaf#1838 on 1/24/2013 9:52 AM PST
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Posts: 556
If you recall D2 cow level, epic mob density and as soon as that portal opened your heart was pumping as the whole party jumped in and rained death.

You were also afraid to die, because if you did you missed a ton of XP running back in as the other players would have slaughtered so many hell bovine


lololol WOW that brought back some hilarious memories... god a miss that.. Blizzard should find a way to bring that back.

Scale wise if I were to used a 1 - 10 rating and with Act 3 being 8.... I would say Act 1 should be maybe a 4? Act 2...mehh about a 5 or 6, Act 4 should be an 11. I mean Diablo is on the scene wreaking havoc you would think it should take a super-mob to topple heaven. Angels don’t exactly translate to chumps and pushovers to me.

BUT, for some reason it doesn’t feel right for Act 1 to have as much mob density as the others maybe certain areas (like Fields of Slaughter) but I mean your really just revving up in Act 1 and for a new players that’s an a$$ handing waiting to happen…Next someone will be crying scale back the difficulty again,

Act 1 needs something special to make it attactive farming wise …maybe make whimsy a bit more open field and dense make something special drop there like a shard (where you need to gather all pieces) to access the original Cows..where it can have 10 or 11 density but only accessible after inferno is completed.
Edited by warbuckaz#1718 on 1/24/2013 9:41 AM PST
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I spoke to some of my friends in the past and asked them why they quit the game. A lot of them said that first of all the leveling felt like a total grind they couldn't get their minds past, so some of them didn't even reach inferno.

So there's a couple of things you can do to make both inferno farming and leveling (1-60) more interesting.

1) Increased mob density, also in mp 0 and in normal - hell. First I thought Ok mob density is not needed in normal - hell and mp0 because lower mob density is part of the learning curve and progression. So MP1-10 could be enough to increase mob density. But in the end, everyone found normal and nightmare way too easy so think it could make the leveling part much more interesting as well.

2) Increase base movement speed. Not only are those first acts like ghost towns, while leveling through normal-hell you also have less movement speed, which makes it take even longer to find a new pack of mobs. As a result of increasing base movement speed, you could probably nerf skills like sprint and tactical advantage by 10% or something, so it feels less mandatory for any farming build and brings barb/dh slightly more on par with the rest of the classes in terms of farming speed.

3) Instead of trying to equalise everything, why not bring different purposes to everything? or even better, first try equalise everything within a certain margin, and then add things that can only be obtained in certain parts of the world. Or things that can only be done on certain classes.

The problem is if everyone gets the choice which act they find most fun and most rewarding they will keep doing that until they are sick of it and then just quit the game because there's no motivation to go in another act they find "less fun or less rewarding". But if they are forced /motivated to go there anyway, they will realise it's actually much more fun than act 3, which they did 500 times.

Since I no longer care for exp after I reached lvl 80, I started farming act 1 and 2 again even though I feel like I'm missing out on loot and they are not my favorite acts. But boy those acts are sooo much more fun because I'm sick of act 3. If only there was more motivation to go there, for example a higher tear of gems dropping only in act 1 and a chance for a second demonic essence from elites only in act 2, and account bound fiery brimstones dropping from bosses in act 4 for example. Then people don't care if there's 20% less exp and loot to be gained if they are desperately in need for gems or brimstones for their crafts.

This way Blizzard, for you it's much easier to keep things "balanced". By trying to keep every act and every class equalized you are making it hard for yourself and if there's one thing I've seen, it's that the team failed over and over again to succeed in their goal to equalize everything. And it's not that the D3 team is a bad team, equalizing everything is just a very very hard thing to balance...

The same with classes btw. Most people are playing only one character, because other characters have the same purposes as your main. Farming for loot. And since it's your main that has MF through paragon levels, there's no point to make alts. But if you could introduce some system where different characters have different purposes. It would take at least 2-3 characters to be able to fulfill every role and people are motivated to make more characters.

People don't do things they think won't be fun. But if they are forced/motivated to do it anyway, they'll usually be having much more fun then they thought they would have. That's where the fail is in diablo 3. You made a game that sounds good in theory by making it easy and taking away depth. By taking away permanent decisions like stat/skill allocation and by making it so that one character is good for everything. Well, that's how you make a BORING and IMBALANCED game.
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The same with classes btw. Most people are playing only one character, because other characters have the same purposes as your main. Farming for loot. And since it's your main that has MF through paragon levels, there's no point to make alts. But if you could introduce some system where different characters have different purposes. It would take at least 2-3 characters to be able to fulfill every role and people are motivated to make more characters.


This is a great point.
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The problem is not the farming efficiency it is the drops period! They are all garbage and have been for a long time. Every time Blizzard touches this game it gets worse. I was getting alot of legendary even though they were not worth even picking up but since Tuesday when they did the maintentance i have only found one legendary and it was grabage too. Why are we putting up with farming for experience only and buying all of our equip at the AH because you can not find a drop that is worth putting on your character? I have a magic find of 291 base which means I am only 9 from the max. I still get the same amout as I did when I was at 150 and the same crappy quality. I just can't wait for Elder Scrolls online to come out so I can leave this game that should have been better than Diablo 2. Blizzard the way the AH and drops are set up have ruined an otherwise good game. I think this game will always be a black spot on Blizzard which used to be known for quality games and people who listen to their fans but not anymore!
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More surprise enemies would be good. Enemies that jump out at you from the rocks, trees, sky, walls, etc. It would also be worth looking into a special class of uber elite bosses, that would show up randomly, in place of a normal gold or blue elite, say like 1 in 20 elites. They could be wicked fast, tough or have crazy attacks. They could drop special loot like real actual runes for rune words, parts of plans for constructing uber gear, charms or jewels etc.
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Posts: 556

3) Instead of trying to equalise everything, why not bring different purposes to everything? or even better, first try equalise everything within a certain margin, and then add things that can only be obtained in certain parts of the world. Or things that can only be done on certain classes.

The problem is if everyone gets the choice which act they find most fun and most rewarding they will keep doing that until they are sick of it and then just quit the game because there's no motivation to go in another act they find "less fun or less rewarding". But if they are forced /motivated to go there anyway, they will realise it's actually much more fun than act 3, which they did 500 times.

Since I no longer care for exp after I reached lvl 80, I started farming act 1 and 2 again even though I feel like I'm missing out on loot and they are not my favorite acts. But boy those acts are sooo much more fun because I'm sick of act 3. If only there was more motivation to go there, for example a higher tear of gems dropping only in act 1 and a chance for a second demonic essence from elites only in act 2, and account bound fiery brimstones dropping from bosses in act 4 for example. Then people don't care if there's 20% less exp and loot to be gained if they are desperately in need for gems or brimstones for their crafts.

This way Blizzard, for you it's much easier to keep things "balanced". By trying to keep every act and every class equalized you are making it hard for yourself and if there's one thing I've seen, it's that the team failed over and over again to succeed in their goal to equalize everything. And it's not that the D3 team is a bad team, equalizing everything is just a very very hard thing to balance...

The same with classes btw. Most people are playing only one character, because other characters have the same purposes as your main. Farming for loot. And since it's your main that has MF through paragon levels, there's no point to make alts. But if you could introduce some system where different characters have different purposes. It would take at least 2-3 characters to be able to fulfill every role and people are motivated to make more characters.

People don't do things they think won't be fun. But if they are forced/motivated to do it anyway, they'll usually be having much more fun then they thought they would have. That's where the fail is in diablo 3. You made a game that sounds good in theory by making it easy and taking away depth. By taking away permanent decisions like stat/skill allocation and by making it so that one character is good for everything. Well, that's how you make a BORING and IMBALANCED game.


I couldnt agree with this more.. everything doesnt need balancing. If i have a BArbarian but i want to take Tal Rasha's armor for a spin, it gives me no reason to roll another class if I can simply wear Tals armor on a Barbarian. <--- these types of things contribute to endgame.

I personally think that was a mistake in the set department. but im certain not all will agree.
Edited by warbuckaz#1718 on 1/24/2013 10:06 AM PST
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mob density would be nice for act1,2,4

i still want a survival mode . on mp0 so no one gets an extra boost to there mf/gf or xp
normal monsters only drop gold,only Elite packs drop item.
and a boss spawns every 5 min .
i would want mobs to spawn fast so players didnt have time to id items.

if it cost 100k or if i had to farm to make a portal i would do it.
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I'm the maker of CrAzYmOd back in D2 and D2exp. a mod that increased the density of monster by 10 per group and 5 times the amount of groups on a single map. No exp, or drop increase.

I made it just for the fact i like to just go rampage and send hundreds of head flying per second. It different fun. After a while you get fed up a bit but i swich it off the mod and continue normally. So having an option for scaling density of monster is my favorite idea. like that i can ramp up and down as much as i want and god knows i would like to max density on wirmshire just to see how CrAzY that is :)


i too modded D2 so game had 10x to 100x the amount of monsters spawned (every area was packed to max).
imagine the area right outside tristram, FILLED shoulder to shoulder with monsters
that was a huge blast and awesome experience, we kept playing through some insane areas where you would get overrun and steamrolled by demonic hordes, literally :)
its one of the most memorable experiences and friends who played it say so to this very day
Edited by Grave#2119 on 1/24/2013 10:45 AM PST
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I would want higher monster density just for the rush you get when you enter an area with an insane zoo waiting on you.. Going back to Kingdom of Drakkar and Legends of Kesmai where entering a room with 20+ creatures ( in those days/games that was a bunch as everything was tile / round based ) was risky but if you cleared them you would always have that " Now that was awesome " feeling.

More enemies just means more fun at its core.
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Higher monster density would be incredibly more fun. The biggest single complaint I have with the iteration of the game over D2 is the difference in mob density. In D2 you waded through hoards of monsters on your way to through, in D3 you have some fights. I miss that knee deep in blood guts and gore feeling.
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Any answer to make areas more like Keeps lvl 2 is the correct answer. I could play keeps 2 over and over again and never get bored because of the kills of monsters is so fun. If only there were other places that were as good and fun to play...
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How to make Diablo 3 more fun and successful in one sentence.

Make it just like D2 LOD.

1. More item types: runes, charms, jewels and tomes
2. Ability to go aggro/PK out of town.
3. fight for loot drops. Make loot drops rate higher in groups and you have to fight to be the first to pick it up.
4. either get rid of the auction house, or limit the ability to sell certain items on the AH. Legendary/set, etc.
5. Get rid of Monster Power 1-10. Just make 2 more difficulty settings equal to MP5 and MP10. Take some control of the game back from the whiny players.

This should be a no brainer, I mean really.... Why was D2 LOD such a great game? Why did Blizzard decide to completely change the formula at all? I would say, to make it more like WoW. Obviously, that didn't work. Add new things to the formula? Yes, absolutely. As long as you don't ruin the things that make D2 LOD so fun and addicting.

Will people whine that they can't pick up loot fast enough and people keep snaking their loot? Yes! Will they keep playing anyway because they really want that cool rune word item? YES.
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I think there are multiple reasons behind the desire for scaling monster density for the players who are asking for it. The first one that comes to mind is not the self-serving need to squeak out insane farming efficiency (there are some who seem to definitely want this), but the desire to feel that they are not losing efficiency when farming anything other than Act III. We definitely want people to farm multiple Acts, so we are discussing options to achieve that goal.

Your ideas on the subject are certainly welcome (in fact, the question of "what mob density would you choose?" is a great one to debate) and we hope that you will continue post them.

I wonder if the mere adjustment to having Nephalem Valor persist between acts would inspire farming of Acts 2 & 4 far more often, where players would more commonly do 2-3 or 3-4 to take advantage of the stacks carrying over and the first 5 elite pacts of the new act getting the NV bonus drops with full NV stacks.

It will be interesting to see how that plays out in 1.07.
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Monster Density balance between acts is a must for the next patch, this is is unquestionable. But do it right, unlike Monster Power, don't give any options to players to choose from. Set the difficulty to ONE, UNIFIED point, and don't give players ANY way to change it. This is why nobody plays high MPs and this is what makes the MP system a complete failure which is only a weird way to give MF, instead of solving the "game is too easy" problem. Now it's even easier than it was before MP System.

Don't mess it up again, please. Diablo III is not dead yet, but it's on the edge.
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Another interesting point to mention is the idea of "herding".

Herding mobs together was something I did in D2 and was the biggest thing that made cow level so addicting.

The thing in D3 is that you can't do herding because the mob's AI's are too complex and their movement speed is too slow.

If I could I'd pull the entire field of slaughter together and take them on all together :) The thing is that hellflyers and ranged goats will run away and by the time they start chasing you, you are already out of range and de-aggro'ed. The big bloodclan goats are just to slow to follow you as well. well, herding is possible in field of slaughter, but it just takes too long to get them all together :(

I totally miss those old D2 days where I'd herd half the cow level together and then spam lightning novas / multi shots / thunderstrikes / hammers on them WITHOUT COOLDOWNS and doing great AOE damage :)

The only thing that partly makes me relive those memories is WW barb and multishot DH, The rest is all so CD or non-AOE based gameplay :( While that is just as effective as WW barb or multishot DH, it's just much less fun to play for me...
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if you had more dps u would be fine to do act 3
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I don't have the hours of play time of most, but I find it boring running around looking for mobs. I am stilling trying to master WW, but I cant see where I am at without large amounts of mobs. I would love to have an option to adjust the density with the increase and decrease of MP level. It would assist also in leveling of toons, but the loot should match the increase of mobs. I dont have the time to spend farming for gold or loot, so the increase of both would make the time I spend more rewarding.
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The monster density is fine as it is. In fact, it might even be a bit too much because it makes a person really question the realism of trying to live in the land of Diablo3. I mean, seriously? You walk 5 yards down the road outside of the town and a hundred zombies greet you. They are just sitting on the road waiting to eat you. What would this do to the economic system of New Tristram, and why did the citizens of Tristram choose to move to THIS monster-filled place of all places? Who farms the fields? Where do they get their food? But ignoring these aesthetic arguments, lets just assume that the current monster density is fine.

However, from a game-play perspective, there is clearly not enough monster density. A player wants truely epic battles. I am talking about the kind where the player occasionally feels TRAPPED because there are just too many monsters to carve his way out of. To correct this, I would suggest making the events trigger a ridiculousnessly large number of monsters (think: Jar of Souls on steroids). I mean...enough monsters that a player might want to think twice before actually triggering the event. The player should honestly think: "will I die if I trigger this event?" The answer should be "maybe". And the loot should drop only if the player survives (excluding loot from slain monsters). Thus, if the player "wins" the event, he gets the loot from the slain monsters PLUS the loot from the treasure box. If he dies, he only gets the loot from the monsters he kills before he dies.

This should fix everything because the players who want monster density can have it but those that do not want it, can avoid it. Also, it prevents many of the game breaking problems revolving around archon and wrath of the berserker builds that are rewarded for high monster density. Those builds would still be effective (if used after the event starts) but the player won't be able to simply Wrath his entire way through multiple levels of the dungeon.

/thread
Edited by ChadBroChill#1292 on 1/24/2013 1:57 PM PST
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