Diablo® III

Nerfing Crit possibly fixes everything wrong with D3.

Please people, stop requesting barbs get nerfed. THe only reason barbs are as powerful as they are is because Strength is also armor. So their dps stat is also mitigation. Asside from that, they stack stats that KEEP THEM ALIVE. Melee Classes take 30% less damage than any other classes in game. is it so over powered?
Don't complain about the ah and cost to gear, because they don't care about AH prices. THey care about people finding what gear they can use, which they already did when they put in Monster power.

Life steal is nerfed. To get a modicum of life from lifesteal, you have to:
A: Hit 5% or more. 5% =1%, as all life steal in inferno is 1/5th of the displayed value. Reflect damage, is 1% of the damage you deal reflected at you. So to even heal life, you have to stack at least two items with the lifesteal stat
B: Stack life steal and Life on hit. if you hit for 30k, that's 300 hp with 5% life steal. okay, so compared to 800 life on hit.... All life steal really does is offset reflect damage currently. Due to DH, WD, Wiz complaining, they are nerfing reflect damage. Notice, monks aren't in that list. WHy? because only non melee classes have an issue with it.
C: to maximize the value, you have to stack high survival stats. Sorry, but EHP is the truth of the matter, and very nessasary.
Nerfing crit will either :
1) Change the stat that most people stack to another, generating a little economic resurgance first, but then it will drop to the same state as today

2) Crit will still be the most "overpowered" stat, but it will be less effective, and that´s pretty much it.
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Please people, stop requesting barbs get nerfed. THe only reason barbs are as powerful as they are is because Strength is also armor. So their dps stat is also mitigation. Asside from that, they stack stats that KEEP THEM ALIVE. Melee Classes take 30% less damage than any other classes in game. is it so over powered?
Don't complain about the ah and cost to gear, because they don't care about AH prices. THey care about people finding what gear they can use, which they already did when they put in Monster power.

Life steal is nerfed. To get a modicum of life from lifesteal, you have to:
A: Hit 5% or more. 5% =1%, as all life steal in inferno is 1/5th of the displayed value. Reflect damage, is 1% of the damage you deal reflected at you. So to even heal life, you have to stack at least two items with the lifesteal stat
B: Stack life steal and Life on hit. if you hit for 30k, that's 300 hp with 5% life steal. okay, so compared to 800 life on hit.... All life steal really does is offset reflect damage currently. Due to DH, WD, Wiz complaining, they are nerfing reflect damage. Notice, monks aren't in that list. WHy? because only non melee classes have an issue with it.
C: to maximize the value, you have to stack high survival stats. Sorry, but EHP is the truth of the matter, and very nessasary.


only reason why wotb barb is powerful is nerfs to monsters. what are gonna proc off with shielded minions? nothing thats what. how are they gonna gather 6 elites in Fields then kill them all with enrage timers? They wont. bring back 1.0.2 affix's and double damage and you'll see very different barbs.

problem is game was dumbed down so we all went glass cannon so OFC CC CD and IAS will be sought after.

Bring back real hardness and those stats take a back seat to survival. Problem takes care of itself.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/21/2013 9:55 AM PST
Look up any of the 1 billion cost items on the AH... now look up the exact same item prop for prop, except just remove the crit.

That same item without crit is worth roughly 100k gold...

The economy is completely skewed. Crit has anywhere from 1000x to 10kx the value of any other stat. And you don't think it needs to be nerfed? Fine, if you aren't going to nerf Crit, then Blizz needs to come up with a way to re-work how drops roll, that makes nearly every item roll with crit.

If you don't want crit nerfed, why would you be opposed to every item having it? I still think this is selfish motivation coming from everyone who opposes me. So, fine.. don't nerf crit, but give it to every item that drops in Inferno. Then the value will still drop, and you can keep your precious DPS and builds. The ONLY reason you'd oppose this latest suggestion is out of pure selfishness.
*sigh*

01/20/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Paz
The Economy gets fixed, Itemization gets fixed, OP builds get fixed, and the game becomes something resembling what the team intended it to be, again.


Translation: "I make more gold, The crappy items I find become valuable, I dont feel so bad only hitting 99k dps as a duel wielding barb, and the last one I threw in there to sound like I actually knew or spoke with any of the devs to give this crappy post some validity"

Why don't we just ask blizzard to make every item in the game do the same damage, all armor have the same bonuses and heck while we're at it make all our skills bring us to the same outcome that way we don't have to strive for anything, worst part of this game was having to think.

Don't take any of this personally I just don't think anything would change (same problem, different variables). Don't lower the bar just figure out how to get over it.
how about we don't encourage more nerfs, instead, lets encourage more buffs
Here's something interesting I just read in the patch 1.0.7 blog posted by Wyatt Cheng

Players often ask why their Sentry or Hydra doesn't inherit their Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage. The answer is that we want players to be able to build their characters in different ways, and we would rather Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage weren’t always automatically the right answer. While this is not something that will change overnight, "different stats for different builds" is a high-level design goal and introducing a very strong Ruby is a step in the right direction.


So it's good to know that the developer team IS indeed on my side... now if they can just have the courage to take action. Nerf crit now.

Everyone who's crying about the nerf will get over it, or they'll leave and we want them to leave, because they're big selfish babies.

Oh and lol @ the guy dissing my toons.. my barb can still roll MP10 with ease, and it's because of crit. My Wiz can perma-freeze ubers etc, because of crit. Yes I don't have best in slot items, I don't NEED best in slot items, because the game is broken. p.s. your hellfire ring is garbage, so you still shouldn't talk. NONE of my items came from RMAH I wonder if you can say the same.. with such a garbo HF ring it shows lack of skill.
Edited by Paz#1827 on 1/21/2013 10:16 AM PST
Posts: 1,691
Has anybody ever raided with an end game Rogue on WoW? Show of hands.

I did. All the way to Wrath of the Lich King (at which point I switched to DK). With Rogues, you wanted to hit the 30% Crit rate at which point it stopped being beneficial for you. You then wanted to get the highest hit rating possible so that you never miss (actually hit first, then crit), and stack Haste rating for more attack speed (which synergized with your Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush and Slice and Dice. At some point, you wanted to stack Armor Penetration as well (up until it's removal). And finally, you wanted to stack more Dexterity and Attack Power.

Even with a crit soft cap, (you could still stack beyond 30, but with diminished returns compared to other stats) you were still encouraged to maximize other stats and you wanted to hit every important stat to do as much damage as possible.

In this game, lets say there was a crit cap of 30. So you no longer seek crit in certain slots. Namely the Helm, Rings, Set Bonuses, Legendaries, and Passives. You only need 10 from gloves, 10 from Amulet, 5 from Bracers and 5 natural.

To compensate for the loss in CC, you want to hit faster so you are hitting crits at a rate that's required to proc your abilities. Attack speed is now the sought after roll on any source it can roll in. In other slots that do not roll CC, max survivability stats will be the new perfect rolls. For example, helm can be Main/Vit/AR/Socket/Regen/Armor. Desired gloves will still be Main/Vit/AR/IAS/CC/CD, because CC rolls 10 in that slot.

Might I add, in the process of nerfing CC, you now invalidate items that are no longer suitable with CC in it. A lot of set helms such as Tal Rasha's and IK have main/crit/socket built into it but now that crit is worthless in that slot, every item will devalue unless it has Vit and AR as well. Natalya's Embrace set bonus will either be OP or need to be removed. Another legendary rework is needed to match the new CC nerf.

Not only do you invalidate items, but passives as well. Because crit is capped at 30, Sharpshooter has to be reworked that it's cap is 30%. Grats, passive is now worthless. It's saving grace was 100% chance in 1 second.

Weapon Master will need to be nerfed to 5%. Rune choices will be affected too. Since the cap is 30, certain skills and runes will be highly valuable because it saves you from having to buy more CC, for example, Pinpoint Barrier.

Anyways, most of you guys get the idea. Next we'll have Iskra come in and say that all that can be avoided with a proc coefficient tweak, LOL


No, I have never said that. The only time I have mentioned proc rates is in reference to synergy builds. Sorry, bud. "To compensate for the loss in CC, you want to hit faster so you are hitting crits at a rate that's required to proc your abilities." Proc coefficients. There you go.

I will say, or rather, repeat what I said on the first page, that in addition the the cap, the amount of cc on items would need to be reduced in a similar but not as drastic way as IAS was so that you need cc in 4-5 (and if 4, with perfect rolls) of the 7 slots, not three as you say above. So no, it would not invalidate tals, IK, etc. because cc would not, in fact, be worthless in those slots. Also, no, people will not necessarily seek the the same gloves, as they could hit the cc cap without having crit on gloves, giving them more options in that slot. You say "max survivability stats will be the new perfect rolls. For example, helm can be Main/Vit/AR/Socket/Regen/Armor ... every item will devalue unless it has Vit and AR as well". Well let me repeat that I think new affix options for dealing damage need to be introduced and AR needs to be balanced with single resistances. Also, let me again point out that I don't think you should be able to hit the cc cap with just three items, meaning that yes, max survivability could be what you want to look for in a couple slots, but not all of them like you suggest or like it is now with crit.

I'll move on to set bonuses and passives. Nat's crit bonus.. bring it down to 5% or around there, the same as other items would be lowered as mentioned above. Or, it could just be left alone, giving DH's more options in their other gear. It's not really a big deal. As for sharpshooter, nothing would need to be changed at all, not sure why you would come to this conclusion.
Sharpshooter already goes above the natural cc cap for DH's, which is 52.5 or 62.5 with archery and a hand-crossbow. That's the point of the passive. If anything, a cc cap would make sharpshooter more viable, as any good DH knows, it's a crap passive after you have about 35% crit. By the way, it doesn't give 100% chance in 1 second.

Weapons master, okay, nerf it to 5% crit with axes/maces. Sounds like a good idea to me, actually. So not only would a cc cap create diversity in armor gearing, but in weapon choices and passives as well. As it is now, weapons master is mandatory.

Pinpoint barrier.. let it stack over the cap, as well as all other skills that offer a temporary cc bonus. It's not the big deal that you make it out to be.

Like I said (on the first page), I don't think that a cc cap would solve all the problems with the game or with gearing but it's a start. I'm trying to figure out solutions to the one-dimensional nature of crit gearing in D3. Do you have a single suggestion or do you not think that it is a problem?
Edited by Iskra#1389 on 1/21/2013 2:15 PM PST
Ok, so you defend your nerf post with a buff quote, then relate randomly generated gear affixes to a lack of skill. This is all starting to make a lot more sense to me now. Thanks for clearing that up.
Look up any of the 1 billion cost items on the AH... now look up the exact same item prop for prop, except just remove the crit.
Let me try to explain, even if you don't read my post and/or have me blocked, at least other people can understand.

Items have a maximum of 6 affixes. They are made up of prefixes and suffixes. and/or including mods. You cannot have a prefix without an accompanying suffix and so on, so forth. Prefixes and Suffixes can be seen here:
http://d3inferno.com/affixes/ItemAffixes.html

Notice that there's very few of suffixes but there is a big list of prefixes. Attack speed on armor is only found on suffixes and Crit Dmg prefix only applies to weapons (therefore on armor its a suffix).

Next thing. Crit chance works together with either Crit Damage or Attack Speed. More attack speed means more crits, so you increase CC to multiply the damage. You don't require as much CC if you have enough speed (similar to what I said earlier about WoW rogues). If you don't have a lot of attack speed (as is the case with 2H builds), you need more crit chance and crit damage to multiply the damage and make those few hits count. So you see, all of this works together.

Back to items. If you remove crit chance from the equation, you are left with the attack speed and crit damage suffixes. BY ITSELF, those statistics don't mean much because they don't add any significant amount to damage. Crit damage doesn't even work without Crit. Attack speed is meaningless unless there is a way to multiply the damage, which CC files the role. Even CC is less effective without the other stats, and only made usable because you start off with 50CD. So yeah, if you search for individual offensive affixes, of course they're going to be worthless. One doesn't worth without the other. Instead, search for the stats that go together, and you'll see the value jump up.

Next, concerning item prices. A main stat/vit/ar roll (even though extraordinary) is less valuable than a normal 100/100 main/vit/ar/trifecta or bifecta because they are less perfect, which also means they are easier to find. A billion gold glove or ring is priced that way because the system rolled the affixes perfectly and had high enough values to be usable. It makes use of all 6 affixes and nothing is wasted.

This kind of item is not simply something you find. You are literally hitting the jackpot if you ever find something like this. I pretty much did hit the jackpot on the PTR but didn't get that fabled top prize
http://imageshack.us/f/43/screenshot154t.jpg/

Even though the item is only missing one affix, it's valuable because of high main stat, high all resist and synergistic damage affixes. It utilized 5 of 6 useful affix slots. If this item was a true drop, it would be worth hundreds of millions easily. An extremely rare roll.

Look at the item prices as more of a perfection rating, rather than blaming crit for the increase in item price. Ask Blizzard to add more ways players can stack effects, like more suffixes for example and make those competitive to the trifecta by having those effects be synergistic with an existing damage affix like IAS or CC.

Nerfing crit is not the answer. There's no hidden selfish motivation. It's simply the wrong direction and I hope that any systems designer is competent enough to see why it's bad for the game.
So it's good to know that the developer team IS indeed on my side
No, they're not. You're delusional. It's still not widely known yet, but skills in D3 tend to either favor attack speed or crit chance. You still need both to maximize damage in that particular spec (for example, in Sentry build you also stack CC for personal damage output, and add CD wherever you can).

So they want you to take a look at what skills there are out there, and determine if you want to run an IAS or CC build. And if you choose IAS, then they have a new option for you to increase damage significantly.
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/21/2013 10:27 AM PST
Ditto
There is nothing wrong with stacking CC and CHD it is just that this is really the only possible way to reach end game damage which is the problem. A solution is needed but not a nerf a buff to make other builds an option (maybe not the most effective but an option none the less) is the route to take.

Get in the habit of capping every stat once it becomes valuable is a slippery slope to manage, it is better to open up new options to diversify builds as you are not going to anger the playerbase who are having fun with there current play style.

The new options may lesson the demand of CC and CHD.
Another idiot thread that goes on for too long... Paz get a perspective. You have lost yours.

Critical hits are what make the game fun - why would anyone want to have a high "white damage" build!?? Go play a straight up action arcade game.

You need to ask yourself why the hell did you create this thread in the first place.

The items just need more skill-based properties so that one can diversify their build in a larger variety of ways while being as good as stacking crit damage to the roof.
no need to nerf anything ..nothing wrong, this is single player game why bother nerf this n that ,lol , trying get more fun n pvp go mmorpg there have more funy pvp..like 1 vs 1 , team vs team , clan war, union war..etc....lol
looks like you only have 23% base CC. Guess it isn't as high of a priority for you. I would venture this is true for more than just you.

Someone complaining about CC and doesn't even use much of it themselves..... that is actually funny.

And if I were to agree with your assessment then I would want Bliz to nerf any skill/passive out there to not add to the 30%.

Barbs are too OP as it is. and putting such a low cap on CC would only make them more OP with skills like:

ruthless - 5% CC and 50% CD
Weapons Master - 10% CC
War Cry - 3% CC
Wrath of Beserker - 10% CC

Not saying all skills can be used at once. However 30% cap could potentially mean an extra 28% CC to a Barb

How many of us have extra CC skills ?
DH I know has Archery giving 10% CC if you have 1h weapon. Also have Sharpshooter to go up to 100% over time.

Not sure what wiz/wd/monks have. However from a DH perspective most use archery but hardly anyone uses sharpshooter unless they are gearing up and are very low on dps.

You want 30% max... then make it 30% max for every class and no CC buffs whatsoever where 30% is a hard-cap. then that would be equality across the board.

Good luck in finding a majority to agree on this. Not even your fellow barbs would much less other classes.
Edited by BubbaGump#1297 on 1/21/2013 11:05 AM PST
looks like you only have 23% base CC. Guess it isn't as high of a priority for you. I would venture this is true for more than just you.

Someone complaining about CC and doesn't even use much of it themselves..... that is actually funny.


I have over 50% crit chance while Wrath of the Berserker is up. That's plenty enough for prepetual spinning and/or hammering.
Also--to deny that there's a problem /w Diablo 3 is to reveal your insanity. The game is currently stagnant, stale, and dare I say.. boring. That's why I don't hardly play anymore, in favor of Starcraft II which at least has endless Custom games depending on what mood you're in.

If you truly believe D3 isn't stagnant the way it is now... then.. enjoy your stale boring game?
looks like you only have 23% base CC. Guess it isn't as high of a priority for you. I would venture this is true for more than just you.

Someone complaining about CC and doesn't even use much of it themselves..... that is actually funny.


I have over 50% crit chance while Wrath of the Berserker is up. That's plenty enough for prepetual spinning and/or hammering.


read above I edited my post as you were replying.

Exactly.... see you want the buffs but want a hard cap which most classes don't have the multitude of CC buffs that barbs have.

You remove build diversity by putting a cap like this on as then everyone ends up with same cookie-cutter approaches again because they have to have CC from somewhere and everyone will end up with using most of the same skills.
Edited by BubbaGump#1297 on 1/21/2013 11:04 AM PST
Also--to deny that there's a problem /w Diablo 3 is to reveal your insanity. The game is currently stagnant, stale, and dare I say.. boring. That's why I don't hardly play anymore, in favor of Starcraft II which at least has endless Custom games depending on what mood you're in.

If you truly believe D3 isn't stagnant the way it is now... then.. enjoy your stale boring game?


and this shows how rich and serious people should take this thread. Coming from a player who admits they "don't hardly play anymore". ... Rich I tell ya... Rich. Sounds to me more like an uber-troll than anything else. Don't play the game but "hardly".. but wants to affect all who do play the game... :)
OP, you are asking for way too many changes and making it seem like it would be the easiest thing to handle.

In your post, you mentioned how many things rely or work directly with critical hits, that would mean more crappy items, more dumb useless skills, and more destruction to the D3 franchise.

Coming from a programmer's perspective, not only do I think this would be a ridiculous amount of work, but I think you would be the only player left in D3 if there was no crits.

I think you should think twice before posting ridiculous ideas that are never going to be acknowledged by the development team.

PS: I do not play D3 anymore.
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