Diablo® III

Bow's are weak compared to Xbows/Hand Xbows

So far they were almost tied, with the 15% archery bonus they were still worse than 2 socket mantis but not by a huge margin. Calamities were roughly equal, somewhat better with the builtin marked for death.

The mechanics:
The way minmax damage calculation works(won't be changed according to blue):
With the addition of the new rubies, weapons with base damage deltas<bonus minimum damage(every single non-vendor crossbow and hand crossbow) will effectively gain 150-300 damage before weapon damage%.

Bows have huge damage deltas( ~380 for revenant ), that can't be overcome with the best possible ~300 minimum damage affix so they are stuck with 150-(150 + (380-WEAPON_BONUS_MIN-RUBY_BONUS_MIN)). That's around 150-220 for the very best bows, usually closer to 150-180.
Note that the high variance in damage is already a massive drawback.

The result is that the already dominant manti gets even more powerful with 1 ruby and 1 emerald. Calamity got a huge boost. Right now bow users are already sacrificing power for style preferences, after rubies go live this will be even more pronounced.

Some possible solutions:
- slightly increase bow base attack speeds. This would take away the feature that makes hand crossbows stand out, the high speed.
- smooth out bow damage ranges. While the high variance is annoying, it's one of the unique characteristics of bows.
- slightly buff bow base damage(somewhere around 50 min 50 max). This would certainly be nice. Low tier lvl 60+ bows would stand out, but noone uses <800 dps weapons anyway. Another minor problem is noone picks up rare revenants so the turnover would be very slow.

Ofc there is always plan B, buy a friggin manti :)

Edit:
The delta below which each +min point also gives +1 max is the (weapons_bonus_min + ruby_bonus_min) for physical weapons. Only ruby bonus for elementals.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 8:47 AM PST
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FYI, after I get a Marquise Ruby, my Windforce will be 1888 dps. Not exactly weak.
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01/23/2013 07:47 AMPosted by Radelon
FYI, after I get a Marquise Ruby, my Windforce will be 1888 dps. Not exactly weak.
you didn't read very well? how things are relative
bows are typically weaker since Bonus_Min cannot easily overtake Weapon_Delta

Man I've got to get my hands on some rubies to test.
I thought it's only 150-150 with some weapons getting closer to 150-300, apparently it's
150-300 with things like manti getting close to 150-450.

from your other post... that only happens if the Manti has ed%
a 50% calamity gets 225-450

if you try to boost a WF with ruby & the hatred/leech combo is not quite worth it, (the APS suffer a tad) but mainly the WF is then missing 100 crit_damage%
- archery is the other thing that offers 'balance' to the issue


Bows have huge damage deltas( ~400 for revenant ) so they are stuck with 150-150.
Note that the high variance in damage is already a massive drawback.

this is not true for black revenants IF you have a +minimum > 228

the 50% WF gets 225-450 (IFF you have a +minimum > 228) however they are only 1.4 APS as opposed to clamaity 1.6, thus the relative addition to DPS is 14% lower than a calamity just based on APS

and variance has nothing to do with poor DPS unless you assume a bias sample; variance works equally in your favor, and equally not... that is why we look at Average = neutrality
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 8:45 AM PST
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01/23/2013 04:56 AMPosted by Draba
Ofc there is always plan B, buy a friggin manti :)


I went with plan B, sold my old manti, and bought a 50% damage manti :)
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Ofc there is always plan B, buy a friggin manti :)


I went with plan B, sold my old manti, and bought a 50% damage manti :)


But that didn't get you anywhere, your Min/Max is based off your Poison Damage, your poison damage split is too high. I could be wrong but from what I've seen and calculated. Your Min/Max is 263/545 . Now your +Min is 225, so 225 + 263 = 488 < 545 therefore you get +225min and +225max. Your Manticore is going to be best with 1 ruby and 1 emerald.

So your Manti needs to have X% damage where (1.X * 150) + MIN > MAX to get most out of Marquise Ruby.

In your case, you have high multi which gives you max +MIN but isn't enough to give you max +MAX, so you have a combo Manti (1 ruby, 1 emerald)

Worst case, you have low or no multiplier and close to +150 prolly up to +175 and a Ruby will not be of any benefit to you.
Edited by Radelon#1292 on 1/23/2013 9:13 AM PST
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01/23/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Radelon
I could be wrong

^ that
mantis are hellions with
weapon_Min 413
Weapon_delta 85

150-150 ruby overrides Weapon_delta(85)
a 50% manti instantly makes a 150ruby 225-450

01/23/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Radelon
Your Manticore is going to be best with 1 ruby and 1 emerald.

this may in fact be true, depends on the +damage, crit% and cd% they already have
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 9:12 AM PST
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01/23/2013 08:24 AMPosted by TianZi
I went with plan B, sold my old manti, and bought a 50% damage manti :)


Good choice but I'm not giving in to the dark side :)

Bows have huge damage deltas( ~400 for revenant ) so they are stuck with 150-150.
Note that the high variance in damage is already a massive drawback.

this is not true for black revenants IF you have a +minimum > 228

the 50% WF gets 225-450 (IFF you have a +minimum > 228) however they are only 1.4 APS as opposed to clamaity 1.6, thus the relative addition to DPS is 14% lower than a calamity just based on APS

and variance has nothing to do with poor DPS unless you assume a bias sample; variance works equally in your favor, and equally not... that is why we look at Average = neutrality


Jumped the gun there, can't get on the ptr until tomorrow and didn't notice that all min sources get summed first, not in pairs with their respective maxes. Thought from another post that rubies add 150-300 before the 50% with the new patch.

By variance being bad I've meant the typical farming scenario:
A good bow has ~500 minimum damage, a manti ~1000. Some low-med hp whites will survive a single multishot hit from a bow but are guaranteed to die from a noncrit manti blast. Best example is crater2 stingers with a medium dps dh. This means more shots needed for the same guy, of course against mp10 ubers variance gets smoothed out.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/24/2013 4:30 AM PST
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01/23/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Draba
a single multishot hit from a bow but are guaranteed to die from a noncrit manti blast.
yes, but (as I said) that assumes a sample (in which a sinlge multi is coincidentally == the monster maximum life), which is a bias

variance can't be used to make a powerful argument, otherwise it extends to Dual wielders and people who stack crit_damage%
the variance between a non-crit and someone stacking 600% crit_damagae is Huge, not to mention as a DW my OH can trigger a weak 400, while the calamity is a high 1000

my weapon spread is 400 non-crit, up to 6500 calamity crit, but dwelling on that won't serve me well
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 9:18 AM PST
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Zoid:

Are you sure, do the calcs. Everything I have seen or experienced, the numbers are based on posted min/max values, and calcs work correctly based off of them.

Black damage weapons use +Minimum and +Maximum. Elemental Damage Weapons use +Minimum Elemental and +Maximum Elemental. I believe it has nothing to do with underlying stats.

Take all the images posted you can find, use my calculation, and show me that I am wrong. I believe this is just simple and everything can be calculated without having to know what weapon is the base weapon.
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Zoid:

Are you sure, do the calcs. Everything I have seen or experienced, the numbers are based on posted min/max values, and calcs work correctly based off of them.

Black damage weapons use +Minimum and +Maximum. Elemental Damage Weapons use +Minimum Elemental and +Maximum Elemental. I believe it has nothing to do with underlying stats.

Take all the images posted you can find, use my calculation, and show me that I am wrong. I believe this is just simple and everything can be calculated without having to know what weapon is the base weapon.

don't use in-game data from display since it is a proxy of the backend database
use the API data

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708261356?page=1#11

when Bonus_Min > weapon_Delta; then bonus Min is used in the maxDamage calculation
here is a confirmation screen included in the above technical explanation

http://screencast.com/t/1hHbfwEK
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 9:23 AM PST
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90 Human Hunter
2510
Posts: 33
My 14m gold WF, easy Defeat my 14m Manticore (1065 dps, 2 socks, 93% crit dmg, 196 dex) thats all for cheap weapons.
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I went with plan B, sold my old manti, and bought a 50% damage manti :)


But that didn't get you anywhere, your Min/Max is based off your Poison Damage, your poison damage split is too high. I could be wrong but from what I've seen and calculated. Your Min/Max is 263/545 . Now your +Min is 225, so 225 + 263 = 488 < 545 therefore you get +225min and +225max. Your Manticore is going to be best with 1 ruby and 1 emerald.


I'm probably going to be using this cheaper xbow that I tested on the PTR, since it's the one I have on my spreadsheet, and it seems to be getting a higher modifier then the standard ruby one (still looking for a dex xbow actually, but no idea if that'll happen):

http://imgur.com/a/98Lrd#2

I'm still going to keep the one I currently have equiped though. I have a feeling if lower DPS weapons start poping up with higher DPS then higher DPS weapons, Blizz might do something to buff all weapons to take advantage of the *bug*. Otherwise they'd probably be flooded by complaints from people using high end weapons that don't get the bonus :P
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Zoid:

Are you sure, do the calcs. Everything I have seen or experienced, the numbers are based on posted min/max values, and calcs work correctly based off of them.

Black damage weapons use +Minimum and +Maximum. Elemental Damage Weapons use +Minimum Elemental and +Maximum Elemental. I believe it has nothing to do with underlying stats.

Take all the images posted you can find, use my calculation, and show me that I am wrong. I believe this is just simple and everything can be calculated without having to know what weapon is the base weapon.

don't use in-game data from display since it is a proxy of the backend database
use the API data

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708261356?page=1#11

when Bonus_Min > weapon_Delta; then bonus Min is used in the maxDamage calculation
here is a confirmation screen included in the above technical explanation

http://screencast.com/t/1hHbfwEK


I see what you mean, but if that's the case (150) is always > Weapon Delta on that xbow (Manticore). Which is not the case. According to your calculation, a Manticore will ALWAYS get at least 150-300 but they won't. You have to meet "certain criteria". We can argue all day long, but I'm telling you there are going to be a lot of disappointed players when all said and done.

My Windforce will get almost full benefit from a Marquise Ruby, but someone else could have a 1400dps WF (50% damage) with a > 225 difference in Minimum and Maximum Damage, and the gem will just be a +225 Min and +225 Max for them. Whereas on my WF I will get +223 Min and +447 Max.

Same will happen on the Manticore, if the split in Poison Damage is > (150 * 1.(Damage Multi) then whatever value is the result will be what's added to your +Min and +Max.
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I'm still going to keep the one I currently have equiped though. I have a feeling if lower DPS weapons start poping up with higher DPS then higher DPS weapons, Blizz might do something to buff all weapons to take advantage of the *bug*. Otherwise they'd probably be flooded by complaints from people using high end weapons that don't get the bonus :P


I'm not sure on this, I believe it's part of the luck of the draw. The Ruby isn't supposed to be for everyone, it's not even going to replace the Emerald. But if you buy the right weapon, then you can get max benefit.

To me it become lessons learned. When buying a Manticore, you would think everyone would want the one with the least amount of Elemental Damage since you want damage multipliers to work the best. I.E. Inna's Favor with % as Elemental.
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01/23/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Radelon
(150) is always > Weapon Delta on that xbow (Manticore). Which is not the case.


correct, the actual check for when min>max

has now confused me
ill have to double check the IF statement logic according to
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708811917
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 10:51 AM PST
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Anyone feel like doing some math on my bow? DPS, damage range etc.
I'd like to know the marquise ruby results.

As it reads

1384.6 dps
538-1244 damage
1.55 attacks per second
+281 min
+376 max
+49% ed
+11% attack speed
+51% crit damage
socket
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Anyone feel like doing some math on my bow? DPS, damage range etc.
I'd like to know the marquise ruby results.

As it reads

1384.6 dps
538-1244 damage
1.55 attacks per second
+281 min
+376 max
+49% ed
+11% attack speed
+51% crit damage
socket


It'll be a few dps higher than mine... but here goes.... 763 - 1694 is new range. 1228.5 is new dps at 1 aps. With attack speed it now becomes ....da.... da.... da...... 1904.2 dps
Edited by Radelon#1292 on 1/23/2013 2:03 PM PST
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yes, but (as I said) that assumes a sample (in which a sinlge multi is coincidentally == the monster maximum life), which is a bias

variance can't be used to make a powerful argument, otherwise it extends to Dual wielders and people who stack crit_damage%
the variance between a non-crit and someone stacking 600% crit_damagae is Huge, not to mention as a DW my OH can trigger a weak 400, while the calamity is a high 1000

my weapon spread is 400 non-crit, up to 6500 calamity crit, but dwelling on that won't serve me well


Just take this scenario:
Running around in rakis, 10 fallen soldiers in your firing arc. They have around 30-45K hp, my noncrit hit with bow in farming gear is 33K-73K with multishot. Some of them will survive 1 shot more often than not. With a manti minimum would be around 60K, it's guaranteed that you can vault forward or shoot in another direction after blasting them just once. Tormented stingers and blazing ghouls are also in this hp range.

The total damage done is the same, but when going for farming speed a low minimum damage is very impractical. Of course the high weapon speeds make those 2 shots take a tolerable amount of time, but 1 from manti is still faster.

Over at the incgamers diablo site there is a whole religion based on stacking multishot crit chance and min damage on rare physical crossbows for budget speedfarming.

Just noticed I wrote bows as bow's. Guess it stays that way.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/24/2013 4:37 AM PST
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01/23/2013 09:38 AMPosted by Radelon
if that's the case (150) is always > Weapon Delta on that xbow (Manticore). Which is not the case. According to your calculation, a Manticore will ALWAYS get at least 150-300 but they won't.


you confused the situation which got me side tracked... >.<

you are correct you don't get the effect of 150-300 from the 1st ruby, but your assumption as to why (working backwards from in-game display not the API backend data is flawed)

I have backwards engineered damage equations to be dead-on-balls accurate with ingame to the tenth decimal during DPS calculations and rounding - that post I linked you to is verbatim
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708261356?page=1#11

a 150 ruby in a Manticore causes max= min+1 but since the mantis has the +85 maximum (known as "weapon_Delta) the 150-300 is effectively 150-216

therefore a 2nd ruby is 300-516
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 6:12 PM PST
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01/23/2013 07:47 AMPosted by Radelon
FYI, after I get a Marquise Ruby, my Windforce will be 1888 dps. Not exactly weak.


Just checked your numbers again:

Base damage on your wf:
80 - 458
Weapon bonus:
264 - 380
Gem bonus:
150 - 150

Total minimum:
80 + 264 + 150: 494
Maximum:
494 + 1 + 380 + 150: 1025
Ruby is effectively 150 - 187 before the 49%.

Base range:
494 - 1025
With +49%:
736 - 1527

That's 1754dps at 1.55 aps.
A manti does that +170-200 dex +66-100% crit damage +1 extra socket to spare.
Are they even comparable?
http://imgur.com/a/98Lrd#0

A rare hellion with exactly the same damage affixes as your WF has 1591 dps BEFORE gem.
With ruby its 1998-2000 depending on rounding. 1754 vs 2000 is hardly a tie again.

Anyone feel like doing some math on my bow? DPS, damage range etc.
I'd like to know the marquise ruby results.

As it reads

1384.6 dps
538-1244 damage
1.55 attacks per second
+281 min
+376 max
+49% ed
+11% attack speed
+51% crit damage
socket

Range 761 - 1547, DPS 1788.
+-1 damage depending on rounding rules.

In the same vein, with a +300 min +398 max affix:
A 80-460 revenant gets to 380-858.
A 417-506 hellion gets to 717-1116, effectively +300 min +610 max.

My original post is still true, only difference is with physical weapons your rolled +min affix and +150 from gem are combined to overcome delta. With crossbows and hand crossbows the weapon +min will always be larger than delta so gems are effectively +150-300, on bows delta is ~380 so gems are 150-220 with the very best rollls( ~300 min like mine ). Mantis are elemental so they only use the gem to overcome 85 delta, that's +150-215 for the first ruby, +150-300 for the second.

TL;DR:
High-end bows gain less from +minmax affixes and rubies than either hand crossbows or crossbows.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 2:26 AM PST
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