Diablo® III

Bow's are weak compared to Xbows/Hand Xbows

If you use archery as a passive the 15% boost can bring the ~1500 DPS bow with marquis ruby up to about ~1700 though wouldn't it? Making it a little more competitive.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/24/2013 4:48 AM PST
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01/24/2013 04:46 AMPosted by METATRON
If you use archery as a passive the 15% boost can bring the ~1500 DPS bow with marquis ruby up to about ~1700 though wouldn't it? Making it a little more competitive.


Yep, that's mentioned in the first post.
Still, some very useful passives:
- PvE low mp you'll want tactical advantage and vengeance or night stalker
- PvE high mp night stalker, probably one of custom engineering/perfectionist/vengeance
- PvP tactical advantage and perfectionist, maybe brooding

You'll usually have 1 passive slot free, 2 is pushing it. For hand crossbows the 10% cc is viable and cull the weak is essentially the same as bow archery. For crossbows it's cull the weak, the archery bonus is bad but still a significant bonus. In pvp/low mp pve both crossbow variants can just use steady aim.

To sum it up archery only makes bows slightly less bad, but the gap is still pretty big and passive slots are precious so the other weapons can just choose an equivalent alternative.

An example:
A mediocre 2 socket manti would give me 20K more dps right now if I keep archery. Switching to steady aim it's 45K. There are pages of such mantis on the ah, while I didn't see a bow better than mine in months.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:19 PM PST
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Draba,

Now I'm very confused, by all accounts that I have seen my windforce should be a full beneficiary heck, lowest I've seen is like 17xx dps.... Now you are telling me 15xx dps.... somethings fishy.
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But what about the hand xbows...what makes them stronger?
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Check the calamity:
http://imgur.com/a/fjoMk#1

463 - 1031 with
+263 min
+380 max
49% bonus

Getting the base damage:
463/1.49 - 1031/1.49 = 311 - 692
(311-263) - (692-380) = 48 - 312, real max is around 277, it was pumped to 311 + 1 by min

Apply ruby min:
48 + 150 + 263 = 461
Apply ruby max:
461 + 1 + 150 + 380 = 992

Add 49%:
461 - 992 ->
687 - 1478, just like in PTR
http://imgur.com/a/fjoMk#3


The same is done with your bow in my previous post.
Difference is: calamity base damage is around 50-277, a single minimum damage affix makes min>max. A 263min 380max affix calamity is effectively a 263min, 380+263-(277-50) calamity. Since min already = max, any ruby added gives double max.

You windforce has a damage delta of 378( 458-80 ), and a minimum damage bonus of 264. It's smaller than delta, so your max is only the stated 380. Adding a ruby, the combined minimum damage is 264+150 = 414. That means you get an additional 414-378 = 36 max damage for a combined 416 vs 380. Not a big deal compared to the calamity's base 36 that goes to extra 186 with a ruby.

Calamities have bigger bonuses with a better attack speed, crossbows get much bigger bonuses =>bows are fkd. Calamities are almost interchangeable with any physical excorcist, but noone picks up rare dh weapons so they are effectively nonexistent.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/24/2013 7:07 AM PST
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Here's my Sentry build with a Windforce socketed with Marquise. Yes D3up's Marquise Ruby isn't working however you can modify the statistics on the weapon yourself and it'll output the proper dps.

http://d3up.com/b/215504/view/slug/sentry

According to this, my Sentry is hitting for on average 148,726 dps (2.58 aps, 74363 per attack). That's just ONE Sentry.

In my preliminary build I did on live. On MP0-1, elites die before Sentry's CD finishes and I had to increase it to MP2 just to make it to the second Sentry and even then they die shortly after I lay it down.
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I don't exactly understand what are you trying to say.
If your sentries do 150K dps with a windforce, they will be at 200K with calamity/hellion/manti. Any character can destroy mp0-2 with any single skill, that's not the point of this thread.

+you might want to look at damage range: 20,909 - 34,275.
That means sentries will do 36590 - 59981, average 48285 per hit.
With bad dex and no damage on jewelry they won't go even close to 74K per attack no matter what gem you put in the weapon. Also, while your sentries plink away guy with manti/loaded for bear/500k dps just splatters the elites in 1-2 1m+ crits and goes forward.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/24/2013 7:38 PM PST
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How much DPS does WF stand to gain relatively? I'd think it'd be relatively high due to WF's high attack speed and DMG %.
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01/24/2013 07:46 PMPosted by LegitBeastin
How much DPS does WF stand to gain relatively? I'd think it'd be relatively high due to WF's high attack speed and DMG %.


provided it's +minimum roll is above 228, the 150-150 will give it's fullest capable
(150-300) *ed%

but it is a bad idea because the wf exchanges a 61-100cd% roll for hatred/leech/knockback

you'll probably want emerald just liek most manti users will want 1 emerald 1 ruby
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How much DPS does WF stand to gain relatively? I'd think it'd be relatively high due to WF's high attack speed and DMG %.


provided it's +minimum roll is above 228, the 150-150 will give it's fullest capable
(150-300) *ed%

but it is a bad idea because the wf exchanges a 61-100cd% roll for hatred/leech/knockback

you'll probably want emerald just liek most manti users will want 1 emerald 1 ruby


zoid could you walk me through your calculations?

According to what I know about the topic:
Windforce delta 378, 228 min and ruby 150 gives just makes min=max. Max is set to min+1, then the weapon max and ruby 150 is normally added. That just means +1 extra damage, aka +150/151 from ruby before ed%. The +150/300 from ruby scenario only happens if the weapon +min alone makes weapon base min=weapon base max.

LegitBeastin:
Around 30% with a very good +min roll, closer to 25 with a bad one. With decent CD you'll gain a little dps compared to radiant star emerald, roughly break even(maybe win by a tiny margin) against marquise one.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:57 AM PST
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I don't exactly understand what are you trying to say.

I don't exactly understand what you're trying to say either.
If your sentries do 150K dps with a windforce, they will be at 200K with calamity/hellion/manti.
Do the math first and then talk.
+you might want to look at damage range: 20,909 - 34,275.
Maybe your Sentry. I don't know wtf you're looking at, cause it definitely ain't MY BUILD that I linked. This is the Sentry damage for MY BUILD

Average Hit 74363.52
Damage Range 56352 - 92374

Like I was saying, average 148k DPS. Try again loser.
Any character can destroy mp0-2 with any single skill, that's not the point of this thread.
That wasn't the point of my post. AT ALL. You missed the ****ing point. The fact is, Windforce is used for Sentry, that's what you do with a Windforce. I wouldn't be using a Windforce if not for Sentry. Do you get it now? You use the Windforce to power up Sentry's damage to ridiculous heights. Therefore Sentry hitting for 148,000 per Sentry is a big ****ing deal. Because it essentially makes it the highest dps output build in the game. Along with my personal DPS, I'm dealing 590k DPS with 3 turrets up and my personal DPS is only reading 146k.

Why should you use this over a CB/LFB insta-kill? Because this works on high MP enabling you to farm more efficiently. The only thing lacking in my build is all resistance and some HP but once I get that high enough I should be able to tackle it no problem.
but it is a bad idea because the wf exchanges a 61-100cd% roll for hatred/leech/knockback
Yes that is true, but the CD isn't the important part of WF. The CD can be made up elsewhere. As seen in my Sentry profile, you're hitting for 148k damage per Sentry and that is far more DPS than 100CD.

The important part to WF is the 1.54-1.55 APS (which translates over to Sentry) and the damage range on max dmg that goes into Crossbow territory

This is what the Marquis ruby is all about. It's supposed to utilize these types of weapons for attack speed builds. They were not intended to be placed in your Manticores on non-IAS builds and expect them to come out ahead.

edit:
and D3up isn't even showing the real Dex amount, which should be over 2700

edit2:
Inputted the proper paragon level, this is the new damage range for Sentry, and the Dex value STILL isn't correct

Average Hit 89791.24
Damage Range 68044 - 111540

Which means they are now doing 179,000 DPS. Keeping in mind that the Dex values have only been adjusted for plvl, there's still unaccounted Dex not calculated into the DPS

edit3:
re-did my profile, put in the best stuff I could find on the AH. DPS now reads 220,340.22, 234,959.85 EHP, Sentry now hitting for Average Hit 99768.9, Damage Range 73672 - 125866 (199538 DPS).

Just for the hell of it, I put in the best Manticore I could find on the AH. After Marquise Ruby, it's 1960.81/364,224.25 DPS. Average Hit on Sentry is 106,193 (212,386 DPS) however keep in mind that the APS on the Manticore build is only 2.06 while Sentry build is getting 2.6. So for every 2 attacks on the WF build, you get another one, which actually puts WF ahead at 299,306.7. The WF used to compare is a cheaper one I own, so that's pretty significant. You needed to use the best Manticore on the AH to even get close to a cheaper WF.

In addition, when you stack all 3 Sentries + personal DPS output, you're looking at 1.15 million damage per second. Top that ****. There is no build in this game that can compete with that.
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/25/2013 7:27 AM PST
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01/25/2013 04:11 AMPosted by speedforce
So yeah, you ****ing morons. Learn how to play the game before you say Bows are weak.


Ok, calm down, I'll walk you through it.

1. "Windforce is good for sentry":
Your windforce does ~1560 dps with a ruby. WF in general is maxing out around 1700.
A calamity goes to ~1900 and applies marked for death. Archery can be swapped to steady aim or cull the weak, without them calamity is still much stronger. A rare xbow goes above 2000, again stronger even without passives, therefore windforce is weaker even when the lack of native CD doesn't count.
The only reason WF mildly favors sentries is that it's a bad bow inherently lacking 100% extra possible cd. I like bows and wanted to use a Windforce since it's appearance in D2 but that one is just a fact.
I did the math several times, that's why I've started this thread.

2. Sentry doesn't do nearly as much damage as what is shown on the site you linked
Hungering is 115% and shows 30207 - 51608 noncrit range there.
Sentry is 175% and shows 70789 - 120942.
That is an obvious multiplication error. Also, sentry crit is listed as 221571 - 378548 even though sentry can't crit.

You might also want to take a look at d3rawr. My bow has better range than yours, my dex is higher, AND I have +156 - 182 damage from jewelry when not using the hellfire. My noncrit hit with a ruby is still only 28879 - 51275. That's 50538 - 89731 for sentry, 70134 average.

3. Sentries won't kill anything in mp6+
I recommend doing a few runs to get a feel what does and what doesn't work when everything has very high hp. It's usually dropping guardian and tanking everything with echoing traps/valley of death/gloom/bola/night stalker for best efficiency. Some swear by caltrops/cluster bombs and other minor variations.

Unless you have bad crits a single echoing landing on a pack will do more damage than the sentry in the whole encounter. Guardian is used for the damage reduction, not the damage. Only does anything significant against single targets without spawns, and the attacks that can crit will still do most of the work.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 5:54 AM PST
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read my 3rd edit jerk.
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01/25/2013 05:48 AMPosted by speedforce
read my 3rd edit jerk.


Nvm you are right. I was mistaken with all these numbers and calculations, keep using your WF to your heart's content.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:25 PM PST
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When all is said and done, damage per hit is essentially the same between Calamity and Wind force. Just Calamity hits 25% more than WF. On a high attack speed WF build it will become very strong. windforce does have a higher max damage than the Calamity while having a loose damage range.
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A Windforce at 1600 DPS can actually out damage a Calamity at 2000 DPS because although theirs less hits per second, higher max damage on Windforce can overtake total damage per second.
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Classic bro science. But, we are left to it.

Question is, what gem do I throw in this beast?
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01/25/2013 06:10 AMPosted by Radelon
A Windforce at 1600 DPS can actually out damage a Calamity at 2000 DPS because although theirs less hits per second, higher max damage on Windforce can overtake total damage per second.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593582850?page=2#25

Here is paper dps( with a black weapon, for simplicity's sake), all % values divided by 100:
(((BASE_WEAPON_DAM) * (1+WEAPON_EHANCED_DAM%)) + (JEWELRY_FLAT_DAM)) *
(1+CC*CD) *
(BASE_WEAPON_SPEED*(1+WEAPON_IAS)) * (1+OTHER_IAS) *
(1+MAIN_STAT/100) *
(1+ELEMENTAL_BONUSES) *
(1+SKILL_BONUSES)

Attack speed is specifically this line:
(BASE_WEAPON_SPEED*(1+WEAPON_IAS)) * (1+OTHER_IAS)
That boils down to:
WEAPON_SPEED * IAS_FROM_GEAR

WEAPON_SPEED is locked at ~1.55 for WF, ~1.78 for calamity. Any bonus from gear is multiplicative, not additive. A 1600dps windforce will always do only 80% the damage of any 2000dps weapon, no matter how much IAS you add. In fact, bonus flat damage from jewelry favors calamity in dps since it has better base speed.

Classic bro science. But, we are left to it.

Question is, what gem do I throw in this beast?


You have a bad minimum roll, ruby only adds 150/150 before the 50%.
With a marq ruby you lose around 1K dps: 166658 with radiant star emerald=> 165860 with marq ruby. A marq emerald makes it 169868, ~3K gain. Since you do not use any expensive spenders that benefit from consistency on thrash, imho just go with emerald.

It the end it doesn't matter, you have a windforce. Just go to mp10 a3 and let sentries murder everything with that 165.8K :)
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:26 PM PST
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Question is, what gem do I throw in this beast?

It reaaaaally depends on your playstyle and spec. If you're not playing Sentry, your RSE is just fine. The Marquise Ruby is more for Attack Speed/Sentry.
When all is said and done, damage per hit is essentially the same between Calamity and Wind force. Just Calamity hits 25% more than WF. On a high attack speed WF build it will become very strong. windforce does have a higher max damage than the Calamity while having a loose damage range.
Yes this is correct. On a regular hit basis, Windforce actually hits slightly harder than a Calamity due to the higher max damage range on a Windforce.

HOWEVER, where Calamity pulls out ahead is due to the 10%CC from Archery and 100% CD from Calamity and that's not even including the MFD bonus. Calamity produces better criticals and it's spitting out more of those.

(and yes, I simmed both a top-end Calamity w/ Marq and a top end WF w/ Marq.)

So to conclude. It comes down to your playstyle and spec. Windforce pulls out ahead for Sentry specs and for general damage purposes, Calamity or Manticore pulls out ahead for overall damage. All are competitive.

Weapon selection at the top end boils down to price. The top end WF I simmed was 980m, Manticore was 1.2b, Calamity 1.3b. It may be best to go with a Calamity for the extra 320 million b/c it can still do over 1m DPS w/ Sentry but has additional benefits such as more APS, CD and MFD proc.
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/25/2013 7:21 AM PST
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