Diablo® III

Bow's are weak compared to Xbows/Hand Xbows

it's too bad sentry can't proc the KB + leech, WF sentry building would make much more sense if you could use your turrets like a wall

CoT on the other hand is interesting, but you don't really want to KB enemies out of the DPS


According to what I know about the topic:
Windforce delta 378
yep
Weapon_Min 80
Weapon_Detla 378
ruby 150+229 = 379 so at that point max = min+1

unfortunately the delta 378 is added to the max anyway, you don't gain very much from Bonus_Min relatively to having 0 bonus_Min

examples:

A)
weapon_12 delta_376 = 12 - 388 (avg 200) base
Bonus_min 379 + Bonus_Delta 379 = 391 - 771 (581 avg) <-- change is like 379-383

B)
weapon_199 delta_2 = 199 - 201 (avg 200) base
Bonus_min 379 + Bonus_Delta 379 = 578 - 958 (768 avg) <--- change is like 379 - 757

scenario B although started as the same avg 200 damage gains more because the Delta is smaller, so the relative change was much stronger

01/25/2013 01:26 AMPosted by Draba
The +150/300 from ruby scenario only happens if the weapon +min alone makes weapon base min=weapon base max.
no a ruby can do that
http://screencast.com/t/1hHbfwEK
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 8:07 AM PST
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01/25/2013 06:47 AMPosted by speedforce
Question is, what gem do I throw in this beast?

It reaaaaally depends on your playstyle and spec. If you're not playing Sentry, your RSE is just fine. The Marquise Ruby is more for Attack Speed/Sentry.
When all is said and done, damage per hit is essentially the same between Calamity and Wind force. Just Calamity hits 25% more than WF. On a high attack speed WF build it will become very strong. windforce does have a higher max damage than the Calamity while having a loose damage range.
Yes this is correct. On a regular hit basis, Windforce actually hits slightly harder than a Calamity due to the higher max damage range on a Windforce.

HOWEVER, where Calamity pulls out ahead is due to the 10%CC from Archery and 100% CD from Calamity and that's not even including the MFD bonus. Calamity produces better criticals and it's spitting out more of those.

(and yes, I simmed both a top-end Calamity w/ Marq and a top end WF w/ Marq.)

So to conclude. It comes down to your playstyle and spec. Windforce pulls out ahead for Sentry specs and for general damage purposes, Calamity or Manticore pulls out ahead for overall damage. All are competitive.

Weapon selection at the top end boils down to price. The top end WF I simmed was 980m, Manticore was 1.2b, Calamity 1.3b. It may be best to go with a Calamity for the extra 320 million b/c it can still do over 1m DPS w/ Sentry but has additional benefits such as more APS, CD and MFD proc.


Let's do some actual numbers with marq rubies.

Perfect windforce:
774-1572 damage
1.55 aps
1818 dps

Perfect calamity:
726-1524 damage
1.78 aps
2002 dps

Close to perfect rare hellion(300-398 roll that I know is possible, didn't find reliable maxes):
1306-2130 damage
1.22 aps
2096 dps, slightly more with a perfect one

Perfect manti with 2 rubies:
1355-2281 damage
1.22 aps
2219 dps

You'll notice that windforce is the weakest even when not counting crits. Even with the archery bonus(that takes away a passive) it's 2091dps, worse than all of them since calamity gets the marked for death amplification.

Whatever IAS you add from non-weapon slots will just be a constant multiplier on all of these figures. If you have a combined 50%, calamity will be at 1.78 * 1.5 = 2.67 aps, WF 1.55 * 1.5 = 2.325, both crossbows 1.22 * 1.5 = 1.83. WF DOESN'T BENEFIT FROM ATTACK SPEED ANY MORE OR LESS THAN EXCORCIST OR HELLION. WF DOESN'T DO MORE DAMAGE WITH SENTRIES THAN ANY OTHER OPTION.
+damage from jewelry slightly favors Calamity over WF and WF over 2h crossbows.

Windforce is worse for any single imaginable purpose than any of the other options(ok, looking cool and knockback excluded). It'll do less damage than those. And they get up to 100% extra CD. And they have an extra passive slot. If all you have is 10m then windforce will be the best option simply because it is borderline worthless.

The +150/300 from ruby scenario only happens if the weapon +min alone makes weapon base min=weapon base max.
no a ruby can do that
http://screencast.com/t/1hHbfwEK


That's a heavy crossbow with 15-17 base.
15+19 = 34 min, max set to 35.
35+19 = 54, final damage 34-54.

If the gem added 19/38 damage would be 34-55.
It's 19/37 added, aka exactly 19/(38-delta+1). In the OP I didn't include the +1 that the max gains from getting pumped up to min+1, I'll give you that :)
To avoid confusion with + -1, if it was:
15-19 base, delta is 4
19-19 ruby
Min:
15+19 = 34
Max = 34 + 1 + 19 = still 54.
Damage added: 19-35, that's exactly 19/(38-delta+1)

Edit:
Just noticed it could be any heavy crossbow between 15-17 and 15-19 :)
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:31 PM PST
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If the gem added 19/38 damage would be 34-55.
It's 19/37 added, aka exactly 19/(38-delta-1). In the OP I didn't include the +1 that the max gains from getting pumped up to min+1, I'll give you that :)


i thought you said a 150-150 ruby wouldn't add 150-300 unless the weapon had Bonus_Min (eg +minimum).
that pic just shows you the ruby alone causes it to become 19-38 rather than 19-19

the above A/B scenarios I illustrate show large _Delta on Bows makes it earn relatively smaller DPS gains from Bonus_Min
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 8:27 AM PST
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If the gem added 19/38 damage would be 34-55.
It's 19/37 added, aka exactly 19/(38-delta-1). In the OP I didn't include the +1 that the max gains from getting pumped up to min+1, I'll give you that :)


i thought you said a 150-150 ruby wouldn't add 150-300 unless the weapon had Bonus_Min (eg +minimum).
that pic just shows you the ruby alone causes it to become 19-38 rather than 19-19


That's still true. Check the figures above, the gem added 19-37. In cases further from the edge it's clearer, I've included one to illustrate.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 8:27 AM PST
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That's still true. Check the figures above, the gem added 19-37. In cases further from the edge it's clearer, I've included one to illustrate.

correct when you start to do relative comparison that trims off the "Y" bonus due to Delta from x-y weapon listings

just for ease of nomenclature I just call a ruby 150-300, rather than 150 - (300 - weapon_delta +1 )
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 8:30 AM PST
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We're saying the same friggin thing :)



provided it's +minimum roll is above 228, the 150-150 will give it's fullest capable
(150-300) *ed%

but it is a bad idea because the wf exchanges a 61-100cd% roll for hatred/leech/knockback

you'll probably want emerald just liek most manti users will want 1 emerald 1 ruby


zoid could you walk me through your calculations?

According to what I know about the topic:
Windforce delta 378, 228 min and ruby 150 gives just makes min=max. Max is set to min+1, then the weapon max and ruby 150 is normally added. That just means +1 extra damage, aka +150/151 from ruby before ed%. The +150/300 from ruby scenario only happens if the weapon +min alone makes weapon base min=weapon base max.


Here was some confusion. I wrote specifically that until +228 min a windforce gains only 150/150. Above 228 min each +min adds +1 max, too. As in +250 min is only 150/172, not 150/300.

Also I'm entirely sure I'm missing the +1 from the bump to min+1 in most cases but it's irrelevant anyway :)
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:33 PM PST
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I was running a machine at work, and was bored so started crunching numbers in my head. With my build I am stacking a lot of damage, in different ways:

Lets say I end up with 1600dps with Ruby Socketed:

At 1 aps I'd be doing 1032 dps. Now add 15% for Archery, 25% Steady Aim, 15% Cull the Weak (I use Frost Arrow and Frostburns so it's all the time), 26% damage as Elemental. That's 81% More Damage.

1032 x 1.(81) = 1867.9 dps

I currently run 2.39 aps.

1867.9 x 2.39 = 4464.3 dps

With Frost Arrow I do 25% more damage to Elemental Arrow from SoJ and DML and 30% More Damage to Cold Skills from Frostburns.

4464.3 x 1.(55) = 6919 dps

From this I have no clue how to determine CC and CD bonuses and also where else to go, but I can tell you that with current setup I can see 700k crits to white mobs and 900k+ crits to elites (29% bonus from SoJ). D3up.com shows my max crit should only be like 400k which is obviously a joke.

I really think I'll be just fine with the Windforce after I crunched everything, looking forward to socketing that Marquise Ruby.
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yes

for ease of nomenclature I talk about 150-300 ruby in a "vacuum" isolated from the weapon it is used on

(assuming 50% ed and 11% ias)
relative additions to a WF are at best more like (225 - 258)*1.55 aps
calamity is more like (225 - 340)*1.78 aps
manti is more like (225 - 325)*1.22 APS
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 8:54 AM PST
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From this I have no clue how to determine CC and CD bonuses

you have to create a sim of the (non crit damage) + (crit damage) to get an idea of what cd% means to you
6919*(non-crit%) + 6919(crit%)(1+cd%)

for example I am 65 crit and 558% cd

x(.35) + x(.65)(6.58) = x4.627
which means .35/4.627 = 7.5% of my dps is from the non-crits; roughly 93% of my DPS gains is crits
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 8:58 AM PST
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Once again(see the last page :)) here is paper dps( with a black weapon, for simplicity's sake), all % values divided by 100:
(((BASE_WEAPON_DAM) * (1+WEAPON_EHANCED_DAM%)) + (JEWELRY_FLAT_DAM)) *
(1+CC*CD) *
(BASE_WEAPON_SPEED*(1+WEAPON_IAS)) * (1+OTHER_IAS) *
(1+MAIN_STAT/100) *
(1+ELEMENTAL_BONUSES) *
(1+SKILL_BONUSES)

Crit bonus is a multiplier: YOUR_DPS * (1+CRIT_CHANCE/100 * CRIT_DAM/100).
For example, with 50% cc and 400% cd:
YOUR_DPS * (1 + 0.5 * 4) = YOUR_DPS * 3.
A moderate 50% cc and 400% cd triples your damage.
Endgame values like 65%/700% with manti: 1+0.65*7 = 5.55. As in crits multiply your dps by 5.55.

Again, it's entirely viable to play with bows. They'll just have much worse damage than some of the supercharged legendaries out there. I'd gain 50K dps by switching to a mediocre manti. Certainly don't have to get your panties in a bunch like the guy with the sentry fetish when someone points out that bows could use some love.

Edit:
Wrote 200% cd in the example.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:34 PM PST
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Lol I totally get it, yesterday I started shopping for Calamity and manticore because I believed my WF is junk. Then tot day while bored at work I started thinking.... I run a build like nobody else does and basically figured out that Windforce really isn't that bad with my build, definitely not enough to go spend billions for.
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A moderate 50% cc and 400% cd doubles your damage.
don't confuse, you have to add (non_crit + crit) into a final portion to do accurate measurements

to have 4x damage you'd need more like total 60% cc and 500% cd
.4x + .60x(6) = x4

5% crit 50% damage is base
.95x + .05x*1.5 = x1.025

everyone starts with a DPS of x1.025
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/25/2013 9:15 AM PST
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The bright side:
WF was already cheap, now they'll be practically given away.

The bad:
Even less rare revenants picked up. In the ah I usually recognize 5-6 rares on the first page of bows with cd/socket just by their names, and it's been like that for months.

That's the reson I've started this thread. Was excited when I saw that rubies are coming and started farming again every once in a while, then noticed that bows are actually fkd again compared to other weapons :(
Waiting for the expansion, they can't let those ugly plinking pieces of sh!t rule ranged weapons forever :)


A moderate 50% cc and 400% cd doubles your damage.
don't confuse, you have to add (non_crit + crit) into a final portion to do accurate measurements

to have 4x damage you'd need more like total 60% cc and 500% cd
.4x + .60x(6) = x4

5% crit 50% damage is base
.95x + .05x*1.5 = x1.025

everyone starts with a DPS of x1.025


Wrote 400 and used 200, that's me :)

Corrected:
Crit bonus is a multiplier: YOUR_DPS * (1+CRIT_CHANCE/100 * CRIT_DAM/100).
For example, with 50% cc and 400% cd:
YOUR_DPS * (1 + 0.5 * 4) = YOUR_DPS * 3.
A moderate 50% cc and 400% cd triples your damage.

I use totals so base 5%/50% doesn't matter.
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:36 PM PST
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The bright side:
WF was already cheap, now they'll be practically given away.

The bad:
Even less rare revenants picked up. In the ah I usually recognize 5-6 rares on the first page of bows with cd/socket just by their names, and it's been like that for months.

That's the reson I've started this thread. Was excited when I saw that rubies are coming and started farming again every once in a while, then noticed that bows are actually fkd again compared to other weapons :(
Waiting for the expansion, they can't let those ugly plinking pieces of sh!t rule ranged weapons forever :)


Totally agree.... aesthetics wise.... nothing beats a windy. And bows need more power
Edited by Radelon#1292 on 1/25/2013 9:19 AM PST
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01/25/2013 09:18 AMPosted by Radelon
Totally agree.... aesthetics wise.... nothing beats a windy. And bows need more power


Objection:
Aeshthetics wise, nothing beats a lightning or fire phantom bow. Too bad it's not an option, I've used one when starting out in inferno and it was great :)

A bit off topic:
Get mempo, a dread cloak, full sovereign gear and archon shoulders. Paint everything with abyssal. Slap on a fire phantom bow. That's the setup I've been working on, and now everything is done except for the bow ofc. Looks ridiculously great among all those girly men sporting nat gear with vile ward/inna pants :)

Edit:
Got home and looked up some rares, the best minimum damage I've seen is 338, the best 434. Never know on affix charts which ones are actually live, but even with these rare bows could get to 2004 dps. Of course 2h crossbows are also somewhat better. Excorcists use a smaller pool but I've seen min 282 and max 390 so they can roll above calamity, too.

Now only if anyone ever picked up these then maybe 1 in 10000000000000 would be actually better than a mediocre legendary :)
Edited by Draba#2568 on 1/25/2013 1:57 PM PST
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You have a bad minimum roll, ruby only adds 150/150 before the 50%.
With a marq ruby you lose around 1K dps: 166658 with radiant star emerald=> 165860 with marq ruby. A marq emerald makes it 169868, ~3K gain. Since you do not use any expensive spenders that benefit from consistency on thrash, imho just go with emerald.

It the end it doesn't matter, you have a windforce. Just go to mp10 a3 and let sentries murder everything with that 165.8K :)


Informative thread!
Thanks Draba.
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I wish people would pick up more bows. The AH needs more good black bows.
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01/25/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Radelon
Lol I totally get it, yesterday I started shopping for Calamity and manticore because I believed my WF is junk. Then tot day while bored at work I started thinking.... I run a build like nobody else does and basically figured out that Windforce really isn't that bad with my build, definitely not enough to go spend billions for.


I ran a similar build to what you have for a while after 1.0.4. TBH it's really fun, and how I actually liked playing my DH. But somewhere along the line efficiency and laziness kind of kicked in, and it basically became strafe facerolling ~_~

Really wish Blizzard will eventually make the game a little more challenging back to when basic kiting and stutter stepping is actually required to be efficient :(
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Informative thread!
Thanks Draba.


Thanks for taking the time to read it :)

01/26/2013 02:37 AMPosted by GaiusTavarus
I wish people would pick up more bows. The AH needs more good black bows.


Amen to that.

01/26/2013 03:54 AMPosted by TianZi
Really wish Blizzard will eventually make the game a little more challenging back to when basic kiting and stutter stepping is actually required to be efficient :(


Stutterstepping is required, just done in the direction of the next pack. These are the glory days of the berserker archer :)
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Would someone tell me what the Marquise Ruby would affect the bow on my DH? Not sure how to calculate it or I would myself! Thanks.
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