Diablo® III

ZC - Zombie Bear Basics and Techniques

01/28/2013 05:59 PMPosted by manvan
Twilight reference


You're dead to me.

I knew it would be controversial. In my defense it was with an ex, it was just the first one, and I didn't go to the theater. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to name anyone in those movies I'd be a dead man.
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Now that Twilight has entered the conversation. my Zombie Bear thread has been officially derailed. Thanks Mike ; ). Seeing as how I would prefer you live, you could just say "emo-vampire" or "shirt-less werewolf" and be saved; as from I have seen in advertisements, that describe 80% or so of the characters.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 3:39 AM PST
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01/28/2013 05:27 PMPosted by MikeHoncho
Yes WoS can be great with bears if you can fit it into your build. Awesome for goblins and ranged mobs on high MP. Try this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#fbUdXg!cfU!cbacYZn


I don't see the reason for Widowmakers, Spirit Barrage, and Zombie Bears all in the same build.

I currently use: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#gfUdXY!fcb!ZcZYYc

I don't have any issues with mana in my current gear setup running with this.

If anything, for uber bosses, I would likely run: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#bfUQXi!Uce!bcZbYZ

I just think the gear possibilities out there allow you to achieve great max mana/regen where I believe widowmakers/spirit barrage/zombie bears don't belong in a build together. That's just my opinion, but it's certainly interesting. Sprinkle in a jar, tap WoS a few times, and just rain away with zombie bears.

I really can't see giving up Zombie Dogs or Gargantuan for survival, especially when farming higher MP.
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I just think the gear possibilities out there allow you to achieve great max mana/regen where I believe widowmakers/spirit barrage/zombie bears don't belong in a build together. That's just my opinion, but it's certainly interesting. Sprinkle in a jar, tap WoS a few times, and just rain away with zombie bears.

I really can't see giving up Zombie Dogs or Gargantuan for survival, especially when farming higher MP.


I saw your build set-up last night in action, and I liked it. I like the idea of being able to swap between medium range, mob clearing Bears and long range, single target WoS. But, for me, I like utility of Hex and Gargantuan too much to lose either, and it would be the Pet tank I would lose for Spirit Barrage if pressed. Good build, but I prefer the sustained damage and regen of Corpse Spiders while focusing solely on Bears. I am going to give Dogs another try though, as I wasn't as well geared last time I tried them, so maybe they will fare better in MP7-8 where I spend most of my time.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 5:41 AM PST
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Yeah, it works great to be able to swap between the two. I've been considering trying a spirit barrage/vampire bats build (Mainly to counter reflect damage).

My big question with this class is... does mana regen have a DPS multiplier on our sheet DPS?

I've considered the use of Visage of Giyua with Mana regen/Crit chance with firebat reduction, then using spirit barrage damage increasing modifiers on SoJ and SoS.

I don't like the EHP/attack speed loss I'd take with dropping my Mempo, but if mana regen plays a large part in our eDPS, the sheet dps wouldn't matter if I can endlessly spam a spell without losing mana, right? I feel like if I have to throw a jar of spiders, that causes a dip in effective DPS

Something along the lines of: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#gcUdXY!fcb!ZZZYYc

Also Eddard, on a note regarding the Dogs. I did find that the use of Horrify - Frightening Aspect then summoning your dogs, does take a snapshot of your current armor values, and they run around with that until death. I'm sure the gargantuan would be the same. However, I do like the idea of using hex for utility/more damage, may give that and Gary a try tonight and see how it works. You can always drop your widowmakers and spec rush of essence with spirit barrage, instead of vision quest. You won't have to lose your pet/hex that way. The effect of Rush of Essence stacks very quickly.

One thing I enjoy about the dogs, is their quickness and ability to hold multiple targets very well. Absolutely loving the diversity of this class!
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 6:16 AM PST
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^Aye, massive fan of BatBarrage. Lots to like. VoG with Firebats allows use of PtV - smart use of Bats gives similar effect of Bears, not only with more mobility, but solid proc rate built in. Takes some getting used to, but once you figure out the 'physics' of Bats, they are very solid.

Also, Hex is deceiving. If you use Jinx, target (ie Ubers) may not turn piggy, but they still suffer the dmg bonus.

Not using Hex atm, but build I have running for Ubers in profile is well worth consideration. Covers a lot of bases.
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How does mana regen correlate to effective DPS? That's what I'd really like to know. If anyone can direct me to a link that breaks that down, that would be awesome.
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Closest thing I could find was this:

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415152537?page=1

But he mentions that there is no eDPS calculator to determine your true damage.
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@Saythe:

Basic rule of thumb is this: The more you can cast your Big Damage Spender, the more damage you are doing. Take a look at some of the top DiabloProgress Doctors, and you will see: Echoing Fury (no lifesteal), Mempo (no Mana stat, no set bonus), Tal's Chest (sheet boosting IAS, no set bonus), Inna's Pants (sheet boosting IAS), and no full Zuni set bonus. I seriously doubt those people actually play using that gear, and if they do, I imagine they can cast 5-6 bears before being OoM.

Point is, resource gain from gear is very important for our class, like it is for Wizards with Arcane Power on Crit. I don't think you would be wrong in swapping your Mempo for Guiya, as all you are really losing is the IAS, which isn't really helping a Bear-dominant build, and won't hurt your Spirit Barrage performance. Plus, I think in the end you would be getting more damage from a bonus to Spirit Barrage, as from I saw last night that seemed to be your primary method of attack.

I realize the irony of what I am saying considering my weapon choice, but I am yet to find a rare Ceremonial Knife that adds a mana stat while performing as well as my Carving Knife.

My choice of Spiders is a preference. I like the increased regen that comes with Widowmakers and the independent, sustained damage that is the nature of the skill. I don't prefer something I can't always use, as I would like my 6 skills to always be doing something. Spiders gives me that without having to swap between Spenders, and synergizes well with the mana regen passives.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 7:51 AM PST
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I think I will purchase a Giyua and do several Ghom DPS tests tonight, and see what I come up with.

A rule I try to follow with Spirit Barrage is 1 cast of Well of Souls and 6-8 seconds bears, and just keep movement up. Not sure if you noticed, but I used Barrage a lot more with wallers or reflect damage last night when we played together.

I've also considered using Haunt - Draining Spirit with the above method.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#efUdXY!fcb!ccZYYc

With my CK (11 mps), SoS (13 mps), Haunt + ROE passive (25.3 mps), a Giyua (12-14 mps), and Zuni set bonus (20 mps), I would be at 81-83.3 mana/second.

Base mana regen is 20/sec.

Blood Ritual = 15% * 140 mana (Zombie Bears * 1.75 (Attack Speed using Giyua) is 36.75/sec (If I used mempo, it would be 39.4 mana/second, and mana expenditure would also increase)

Spiritual Attunement 994 base * 1.20 = 1192.8 *.01 = 11.9 mana/sec

Total: 150-152 mana/second. Not bad at all.

Mana spent per second: 245 at 1.75 aps, and 263 @ 1.876 aps

ACTUAL mana spent per second 245 - 152 = 93

I don't dare try to attempt the math behind using Mempo with Spirit Barrage Well of Souls. But I'm now very eager to get out of work and do some Ghom DPS tests to see which is better. I'll likely do 5 runs with Mempo, and 5 runs with a Giyua. Since this is single target, I might just forget Well of Souls, and use the Widowmakers with Vision Quest with Mempo.

1.75 APS might end up being a sweet spot in my gear.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 12:34 PM PST
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I have run that test myself, and Haunt can be really good, and it can be really poor. It is great sustained damage if it hits critically, but no so much if it doesn't. It would require obscene micro-managing to ensure that Haunt is running a Crit, and would need to be recast it doesn't. By the time you "check up" on Haunt, and recast if necessary, you could have done more damage by having just walked up and casted Bears. Haunt can be cast through Waller, but I think Spirit Barrage would be the best option if used in that scenario.

This is me speculating, but I doubt that Haunt with RoE would outweigh the regen of a Primary with VQ, as you won't be casting Haunt often enough to get max benefit of multiple RoE stacks. Unless, of course, you are vigilant in casting Haunt every few seconds, which would cause a "break" in your bear DPS. Haunt's cast speed is close to as quick as Corpse Spiders, so it might be that Haunt could be pretty effective if paired with RoE, but would (probably) still pale in comparison to the regen offered by Widowmakers with VQ.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your math.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 9:38 AM PST
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Yeah, casting haunt every 6 seconds compared to casting widow makers every 10 or so... Single target fights like Ghom DPS test, I think Widowmakers are choice, multiple targets, haunt could be great, the effect does stack when affecting multiple targets.

When you kill something, it does travel to another. When it does this... does the 6 second timer reset? Or just the remainder of the duration of your initial cast?
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 9:39 AM PST
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I usually do a 5 Bear, 1 spider jar rotation, which keeps VQ topped off constantly, and keeps my Mana on a slow drain.

When you kill something, it does travel to another. When it does this... does the 6 second timer reset? Or just the remainder of the duration of your initial cast?


I think it finishes its initial cast. I don't think it refreshes itself, though I could be wrong.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 9:43 AM PST
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5270836271

You are correct Eddard. That is just terrible. I would much rather use Widowmakers/VQ.
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A friend of mine was asking how I handle bear build with a higher aps. I decided to record a video of MP7 farm run so he can see. He wanted it to be in fields (a3) since it was more open areas and less walls to work bears to a single file line as well as more ranged attackers. You can take a look if anyone is interested. Many WD's will say that 2 hander is better for bear builds hands down... and I don't necessarily agree... only that it depends on your style of play. Slow 2 hander doesn't fit my style of play. To each his own. Here's the video if anyone wants to watch fast aps bear as well as weapon swapping for RD elites (my preferred way of fighting RD elites until 1.0.7 is released).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1KhAHrOW9c

0:09 (Vortex/Desecration/FireChains/Arcane)
3:25 (Molten/Vamperic/Electrified/Minion)
4:16 (Reflect Damage/Fast/Teleporter/Electrified)

I find that using a slow 2 hander makes fighting ranged elites more difficult since they will be moving around and shooting while you are waiting for casting animations to bring your bears out. It also opens you up for ranged attacks.
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01/29/2013 10:59 AMPosted by ofgortens
Many WD's will say that 2 hander is better for bear builds hands down... and I don't necessarily agree... only that it depends on your style of play.


Agreed. Like you, I prefer 1H/Mojo for the greater range of stats, and if you gear for Mana (like I have Max Mana on my helm and mojo), you can compensate for higher attack speed with better synergy with your passives. I regularly farm MP7-8 solo, and very rarely run OoM. Granted, I am rarely able to stand in one place for extended periods, but if I do, even Extra Health or Health Link is dead before I am OoM.
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Yeah, at your attack speed Eddard, your bears are actually doing 383% weapon dmg/second.
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Per Bear? Nice! How did you calculate it?
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 11:52 AM PST
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I might be wrong... but I figured if your attacks are 1.624/second, that would be 236% * 1.624 = 383.26%. That would be the actual damage % per second of the bears.

This idea initially sparked my curiosity on effective DPS for witch doctors based on their overall mana regen. More mana regen, faster attack speed, more effective DPS.

If I switch to a Giyua, my theoretical bear damage/second drops to 413% from 443%. I will gain around 10 mana per second overall, but I will also drop close to 9K sheet damage. Hence, sparking the testing tonight on Ghom! :)

I think I'm enjoying this too much...
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Ah I see. That calculation gets way more complex when you start factoring in CC, CD, Damage from Intel, Avg Damage, +% Elemental Damage, etc.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 12:54 PM PST
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