Diablo® III

ZC - Zombie Bear Basics and Techniques

Correct. However, your sheet dps is much higher than mine.

Unbuffed my damage vs elites is 217,891.55, against everything else 163,828.23

You are at 273,050.53 vs elites, and 255,187.41 against everything else.

I'm not entirely sure on the math for total damage dealt, but I'd say you're doing quite a bit more than I am, even if your theoretical bears per second damage is less.

Really the only way to measure your effective DPS, is to kill Ghom with your farming build, and take his total health and divide it by how long it took you to kill him.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 12:25 PM PST
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I have no idea if this is correct either Eddard, but just a guess, and if you do a Ghom, using your normal farming build, you may be able to see if this number ends up being close.

Your dmg vs Elites: 273,053.53 * 3.83 = 1,045,783.5 Zombie Bear DPS
My dmg vs Elites: 217,891.55 * 4.42 = 963,080.65 Zombie Bear DPS

This does not factor in your hex DPS, or Garg DPS, OR overall mana regeneration, however still may be close when you factor in tossing in a jar of spiders every 10 seconds.

I have a feeling that I might be way off though... and the above math is incorrect. But I'll post my results using my Mempo first. I'm going to do 5 runs and average it out.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 12:56 PM PST
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-_-

Too much number crunching, not enough playing the game. Just my 2 cents, but I feel there are far too many variables in an elite fight and doing some test vs Ghom honestly doesn't prove much anything. It's a almost completely stationary target, and if you can tank the cloud, you don't need to dodge anything or move around yourself. How many elite fights are like that at high mp?

Not trying to sound like a douche. But I think the "decent" way to check your dps/rate of killing mobs is to set up an mp of your choice, and hit a spot where you know you can find 5 mobs very quickly (festering, vault, etc). Then time it and do multiple tests or whatever to calculate the average run speed. And even then there are still plenty of variables (extra health/shielding mobs, having to micro more in some fights than others, etc). But it would save you a lot of trouble and math.
Edited by RPRNoNsum#1561 on 1/29/2013 1:29 PM PST
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I'm at work, so I can number crunch while I render images on my machine. Wish I could play while I was at work, but I can not. Rendering takes way too much processing power.

Regardless, Ghom is a standard and effective way to measure eDPS across all classes, and is a good way to get a grasp on what you are capable of doing single target over a long period of time.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/29/2013 1:42 PM PST
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I guess. Armor/Vit varies by pretty much every pack though. Ghom test pretty much tells you, well, how fast you kill Ghom.
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To each his own. :)
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01/29/2013 01:55 PMPosted by RPRNoNsum
I guess. Armor/Vit varies by pretty much every pack though. Ghom test pretty much tells you, well, how fast you kill Ghom.


Any time you are doing an experiment, you have a dependent and independent variable. One variable changes (independent) to show an effect on the other (dependent). In this case, Ghom is is the dependent variable, and the build used to kill him is the independent variable. You need to have a dependent variable to measure change accurately, otherwise you are just speculating. Also, your way would take longer ;)
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01/29/2013 02:16 PMPosted by MikeHoncho
Any time you are doing an experiment, you have a dependent and independent variable. One variable changes (independent) to show an effect on the other (dependent). In this case, Ghom is is the dependent variable, and the build used to kill him is the independent variable. You need to have a dependent variable to measure change accurately, otherwise you are just speculating. Also, your way would take longer ;)


Well spoken.
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I guess. Armor/Vit varies by pretty much every pack though. Ghom test pretty much tells you, well, how fast you kill Ghom.


Any time you are doing an experiment, you have a dependent and independent variable. One variable changes (independent) to show an effect on the other (dependent). In this case, Ghom is is the dependent variable, and the build used to kill him is the independent variable. You need to have a dependent variable to measure change accurately, otherwise you are just speculating. Also, your way would take longer ;)


I still believe it's a poor means of calculating ones own damage and efficiency. Basing your entire effective dps off one specific fight just doesn't seem very reliable. Especially against Ghom.
Edited by RPRNoNsum#1561 on 1/29/2013 3:51 PM PST
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01/29/2013 03:51 PMPosted by RPRNoNsum
I still believe it's a poor means of calculating ones own damage and efficiency. Basing your entire effective dps off one specific fight just doesn't seem very reliable. Especially against Ghom.


Anytime one is conducting an experiment, the conditions need to be controlled as much as possible, so as to reduce the margin of error. Fighting Ghom to test the damage of various skills, or combinations of skills, is most controlled environment possible in the game, as his attacks are predictable, and his gas simulates the damage one would take under normal battlefield conditions. Obviously, Ghom is an "ideal" testing environment, and the actual game would be much more chaotic. But you need an ideal environment to get an accurate result how much damage X skill does over Y time.
Edited by EddardStark#1833 on 1/29/2013 4:56 PM PST
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I understand the purpose of it. I just don't see the point of it. The game doesn't play out that way, so why test it in that form?

I guess I'm not legitimately posing this question, as it really is just preference. To each their own, as Saythe said.
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Test results from Ghom MP 7 in my current gear setup.

Using this spec: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#bfUdQY!Ucb!bcacbc

For this test I used Slam Dance instead of horrify, as this is what I'd likely use against Bosses/Uber Bosses

MP7 Health = 43,557,052

Run 1: 34.6 seconds
Run 2: 33.8 seconds
Run 3: 35.2 seconds
Run 4: 34.3 seconds
Run 5: 33.4 seconds

Average: 34.26 seconds

43,557,052 / 34.26 = 1,271,367.54 eDPS

Actual should be a touch higher too because of Zombie Dogs/Corpse Spiders, and 1 stack of Soul Harvest.

(This was my above estimate) My dmg vs Elites: 217,891.55 * 4.42 = 963,080.65 Zombie Bear DPS

Now Slam Dance increases attack speed by 20% and damage by 30%. This caused my attacks to go from 1.876 to 2.25 APS. This would cause theoretical bear damage to also increase for that time.

217,891.55 * 5.31 (236% * 2.25) = 1,157,004.13 eDPS * 1.30 damage = 1,504,105.37 eDPS

Now, if I take my theoretical bear damage eDPS and Slam dance bear eDPS and average them I get:

1,233,593 eDPS

Average: 34.26 seconds

43,557,052 / 34.26 = 1,271,367.54 eDPS actual.

I'd say those numbers are fairly close based on sheet damage, attack speed, and guessing your theoretical bear damage based on your attack speed.

This might be useful for you bear users out there to gauge your effective DPS!
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/30/2013 5:51 AM PST
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Also, Eddard, I forgot to mention. Shortly after you logged off this morning, I picked up a very cheap Visage of Giyua with 14 mana regen, 199 int, and 4.5% crit.

What I'll do, is run 5 more tests, using the Visage of Giyua, and see how 14 mana regen compares to 9% attack speed from my Mempo of Twilight. The only difference between the two is 5 Intellect, which shouldn't skew the results too much. I'm interested in seeing how/if mana regeneration helps the scaling of eDPS.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/30/2013 11:11 AM PST
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It should help a lot. You will have so much more bear spam, and your damage numbers will stay the same. I can immediately notice the damage drop off every time I have to throw a jar of spiders or two, and that is only a split second of bear downtime. I have a feeling you will really like having that extra mana at the expense of some AS. It is really hard to take away regen once you've had it.

Also, have you guys checked to see if there are any rare voodoo masks with 6% cc, 200+ intel, mana regen and a socket? That would be better than a VoG if your main focus is bears. VoG is mainly for AC and dog centric builds.
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I've been keeping my eye on the Rare voodoo masks, I saw one this morning that was decent at 5.5 CC. I think if I can get my hands on a 14 regen with 200+ int, vit, and all resist with a socket, that would be choice. The VoG I picked up this morning was only 5 million, and thought it would be a perfect comparison for this test alone since the crit chance is the same as my mempo.

I would take close to a 10,000 paper damage loss switching from Mempo, as well as a fair chunk of EHP.
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/30/2013 12:17 PM PST
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From my experience best bear build for higher mp (~mp7/8) is this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#jUXdfQ!TY!YZYYcb

Where optional is, soul harvest rune (I chose duration one, as keeping 5 stacks with 60s is easier, and overall ot provides most sustained dps over entire run, if you never miss any stacks, which is easy with this rune).
Last passive, depending on what you are missing, blood ritual for mana, spirit vessel for more speed (reset cooldowns), jungle fortitude if you have trouble with reflects, and pierce the veil if you have good slow setup and can afford more damage at cost of all skills mentioned above.

The idea here is, to get burst damage vs each elite pack, voodoo + paranoia, it is up for every pack, or 90% of packs, with 200k+ unbufferd dps, melts elites in few seconds at mp7. And you don't need to use spiders for mana, even with pierce the veil, since stuff dies so quickly. That done with 1.2 aps weapon, and not using too many ias slots (no mempo, but good zuni helm instead, no inna pants, but mitigation rares instead ect).
Reflects with life steal are no problem, with proper use of horrify, having about 8k armor, 500k ehp, it is no problem.
I find this setup fastest, any modification that includes spiders for mana, or wos for ranged enemies, is significantly worse. Bears are far superior to any other skill, and even if they can be hard to aim at times, they deal so much more aoe damage, they are still better..
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Remarkable results using the VoG:

24.5
22.8
25.4
22.6
24.7

Average 24 seconds

43,557,052 / 24 = 1,814,877.16 eDPS

Consider me shocked.

MEMPO FOR SALE!
Edited by Saythe#1826 on 1/30/2013 2:14 PM PST
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01/30/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Saythe
MEMPO FOR SALE!


Indeed. If you are running bears, you don't need all that sheet damage boosting IAS, as speed does nothing for your actual numbers, nor does it spawn more bears per cast. All it does do is burn your Mana more quickly, and give you more "down" time regenerating Mana.

IAS is good for (or at least doesn't actively hurt) every other class, as they see a direct correlation between between IAS and in-game damage: Barb = more Sprint tornadoes, more Whirlwind strikes in less time; DH = faster Hunger Arrow for faster Hatred regen; Wiz = snapshot for Archon damage, breakpoints for CM build; Monk = snapshot for Sweeping Winds, faster Spirit regen; Witch Doctor = faster cast speed for all spells, which actually hurts us because we are burning mana more quickly, even with our low-cost primaries. It can be fine for other non-ZC builds, as you can crank out a ton of AC-Blobs in short window, in addition to crazy LoH procs from PoT-RoT.

IAS sure does look pretty on DiabloProgress though, judging by all the Mempo/Echoing Fury/Tal's Chest/ Inna's Pants WDs (in addition to speed bonus from Witching Hour and Lacuni's) I see up there.
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As long as you have the regen to support the attack speed it will be an overall DPS increase to your theoretical bear damage. I'm very close to where I want to be for endless bears at 1.75 APS.

I'm likely going to replace my taskers and get some high crit/crit damage gloves with a good chunk of int/vit/armor (good luck right?), and see how that performs. My other thought is, I'll just craft new gloves in 1.0.7, as those are said to come with very high int rolls now, and see if I can get lucky with those. I'm certain I can drop the 57 all resist and be just fine.
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Lots of new WDs around, so I am bumping this back up.
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