Diablo® III

Getting clear on why items suck (long)

01/29/2013 07:54 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Actually I don't explicitly endorse caps. My main purpose here is to figure out what exactly the itemization issues in D3 are. In comparing the situation in D3 to D2, it's clear that the difference in why we stack resistance on every defensive slot in D3 but not D2 is because of caps. The problem is the lack of meaningful choice on items, and the fact that every single (for example) chest piece without resistance has to compete with a similar chest piece WITH resistance. Whether this is addressed via caps or via some other way, I'm not particularly concerned. I just think that this is a severe issue affecting itemization.


Lack of alternatives is not the same thing as forcing alternatives via hard capping affixes. I agree that there should be way more options for defensive and offensive concepts (read the crafting section http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593582639 and leave a comment!) but convincing players both options are equal is always hard. Sheeple will follow trends.

This also leads me to another big problem you haven't mentioned. The stat comparison screen: Because of it almost all choices come down to this window. I know there are ways to add flavour, but in the end you always compare these two values showing in the stat screen. If it is a + in dps then the player is going to want it. Is it not going to show pretty green stats then the player is not going to want it. The itemslots have lost a lot of flavour because of this. You basicly have only 3 itemslots called dps, health and defense.

01/29/2013 07:54 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Two differences actually. One is that it contributes to weapon damage, the other is that all damage types are functionally equivalent. The fact that you did less overall on-paper DPS with azurewrath than BotD was compensated by the fact that you did more actual damage against targets that are cold resistant. This dynamic is completely missing in D3.


Simply lying to the player should not be the way to go. "This item deals more damage, but it actually doesn't, lol" isn't a tooltip i want to see. Of course i agree that the creation of situational strengths is a good thing but it isn't addressed good neither in Diablo 2 nor in Path of Exile and can be done better in D3.

01/29/2013 07:54 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Then why wasn't this a problem in D2? Were hammerdins balanced?


I was actually impressed with your way of reasoning compared to other people on this forum but then this? You honestly think hammerdins are a good addition? Why do you think adding a build that completely trivializes every other option is a good addition? And yes, hammerdins were a problem in D2 just like all barbarians being immune to CC is a problem in D3.

Since you won't read my thread anyway here are a few examples that might make loot a little bit more fun


Imbue of fortification:
- Parts drop in Gardens of Hope, Desolate Sands, Fields of Misery
- Tooltip: "Allows its wearer to increase his life and a chance to summon a sacred shield when being hit."
- Can imbue shields
- 7 Parts
- 0.2%-1% increased life (Min: 1.4% HP; Max: 7% HP)
- Completion bonus: + 40 random stat, Sacred shield: When dropping below 50% HP a sacred shield appears and reduces all damage taken by 0.01%-0.1% of its wielders dexterity for 4 seconds, 60-15 seconds cooldown.

Imbue of domination:
- Parts drop in Cathedral, Alcarnus, Tower of the damned
- Tooltip: "Increases summoned minions damage and allows to control more minions. Gather the essences of Sanctuarios' greatest summoners and bind them on a scroll."
- Can imbue Belts, Amulets
- 3 Parts
- 1%-4% increased minion damage, 0-2 Pickup radius (Min: 3% MD, 0 PR; Max: 12% MD, 6 PR)
- Completion bonus: summoning mastery: Reduces cooldown of minion based spells by 1%-50%, 10%-50% chance to summon twice as many minions.

Imbue of refraction:
- Parts drop in all areas that have small runner type monsters.
- Can imbue Belts, Amulets
- 3 Parts
- 1-3 Pickup Radius, 4-14 dexterity (Min: 3 PR, 12 Dex; Max: 9 PR, 42 Dex)
- Completion bonus: Deflection: 1%-5% chance to deflect incoming damage (deflect = you take no damage) and deal 20%-60% of its damage to all enemies within your pickupradius.

Crimson-recipes:
These allow players completely forgo the current defensive stats armor and resistance affixes by granting the player a huge lifeboost and situational defense. Items crafted with these recipes have NO armor and NO resistance at all. They can not be imbued and can not be traded. Crimson items can be created for the boots, belt, shoulders and wrists-slot. They have 3 base affixes:
+ 200-500 Vitality
+ 10%-20% Life
+ Armorconversion 1-25 (Armorconversion: For every 1000 points of damage the character takes he gains x amount of armor for 5 seconds.)
Along with these set affixes there are another 4 affixes (excluding armor/resist):
1. Either +5.000-25.000 Healthglobes/Potions OR +500-2.500 Hp/s.
2. random affix from the current affixtable (affixlevel = itemlevel)
3. random affix from the current affixtable (if 1 higher alvl is available than alvl = ilvl + 1; if no higher alvl is available than alvl=ilvl - 1)
4. random affix from the current affixtable (if 2 higher alvl are available than alvl = ilvl + 2; if no higher alvl is available than alvl=ilvl - 2)
Additionally to the affix-roles the player can enchant crafted items to gain one ability that is autocast every 30 seconds (wizard-armor,monk-mantra,barb-shouts). Only the latest ability that has been put on works (if the player has more than one enchanted item).

Obsidian-recipes:
These allow players completely forgo the current critchance and critdmg affixes by granting the player an attackspeed bonus and increasing monsters vulnerability. Items crafted with these recipes have NO critical chance and NO critical damage at all. They can not be imbued and can not be traded. Obsidian items can be created for the boots, hands, amulet and head-slot. They have 3 base affixes:
+ 100-250 Attribute
+ 1%-5% increased attack speed
+ a) Vulnerability 1000-7500 (80% chance) or b) Vulnerability 1000-15000 (20% chance) (Vulnerability: Increases the damage taken by target by x after each completed attack. This damage is added after critmodificators and is therefore not improved by critical hits.)
Along with these set affixes there are another 4 affixes (excluding crit,critdmg):
1. + 2-7 pickup radius
2. random affix from the current affixtable
3. random affix from the current affixtable
4. random affix from the current affixtable
Additionally to the affix-roles the player can enchant crafted items to gain one ability that has a 1%-10% chance to be cast on hit (chackram,exploding palm,zombie charger,energy twister). Only the latest ability that has been put on works (if the player has more than one enchanted item).

Cyan-recipes:
These allow players completely forgo the current defensive stats armor and resistance affixes by granting the player dodge and a bloodshield. Items crafted with these recipes have NO armor and NO resistance at all. They can not be imbued and can not be traded. Cyan items can be created for the belts, bracers and boots-slot. They have 3 base affixes:
+ 3000-15000 Healthglobes/Potions
+ 3%-13% Dodge
+ Bloodshield 10%-33% (Bloodshield: The character is surrounded by a shield with x% of your healthglobes/potion bonus as HP. The shield regenerates 5% of its value per second.)
Along with these set affixes there are another 4 affixes (excluding armor/resist):
1. Either 1%-5% IAS OR Bonus minimum damage 5-33.
2. random affix from the current affixtable
3. random affix from the current affixtable
4. random affix from the current affixtable
Additionally to the affix-roles the player can enchant crafted items to gain one ability that is autocast every 30 seconds (wizard-armor,monk-mantra,barb-shouts). Only the latest ability that has been put on works (if the player has more than one enchanted item).
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/29/2013 8:33 AM PST
Reply Quote

The upgrades that cost literally billions of gold are not needed to tackle any content in the game. I don't see why it's bad that there are items so rare that the people with the most gold in the game are willing to pay billions for them.

Because it is not proportional, inflated. Maybe if you consider again that 1 Billion gold is about 400-500$ you might understand why its not good to have equipment that is so random and rare that you need so much "money" in form of "gold" to actually get that equipment - and the fun part is that you probably will even find that stuff! Just that it has the wrong stats on it ... I found 3 mempos, 5 echoying fury, 4 skorns and a lot of other items, all them though have been not a lot worth, I would not mind to find LESS items but with BETTER quality.

You can make it TO rare, and there are quite a few people which believe that D2 was somewhat "better" as game thx to the duping which gave great items lets say, more "reasonable" and "affordable" prices. Remember, there are F2P games out there which allow you access to content for a MUCH cheaper price tag and without playing for 3-4 years. For most people already 50 or 100m Gold is already quite a lot - and NO I do NOT see flipping as relevant, I do not believe the AH was made with the idea in mind that people would "flip" their way to the top ...



Kill the snake at the head.. take out the rmah.

the "head" of the snake is not the RMAH, its the loot system. And the points you mentioned here, like limited use of items, very few important stats, no diversity in builds and choices (just take a long on twohand builds ... there is only skorn ...). If we allow for more diversity in usefull loot and builds which also work in HIGHER MP levels we will emidiately see an improvement. Maybe we will not see those inflated prices anymore because not everyone is looking for the same gear.
Reply Quote
I heard mp0 is hard.Actually I doubt you're " farming" anything but hell efficiently with your terribad build, and gear.


Go start a selffound character and tell me you can't complete Inferno after 100 hours. This is roughly the time it is supposed to take you and it absolutely fits. If you want to farm MP it'll take you 175 hours and if you want to farm MP2 it'll take you 300 hours. It IS working as intended.
Reply Quote
Good post. Agree with everything.

Crafting could be improved simply by lowering the cost. No need to introduce new recipes with new mats, just remove the existing cost disincentive.

But sadly D3 has bigger problems than the sorry state of crafting.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 08:46 AMPosted by CrniVuk
You can make it TO rare, and there are quite a few people which believe that D2 was somewhat "better" as game thx to the duping which gave great items lets say, more "reasonable" and "affordable" prices. Remember, there are F2P games out there which allow you access to content for a MUCH cheaper price tag and without playing for 3-4 years. For most people already 50 or 100m Gold is already quite a lot - and NO I do NOT see flipping as relevant, I do not believe the AH was made with the idea in mind that people would "flip" their way to the top ...


You have access to the ENTIRE CONTENT without spending anything on the game after you buy it. You just want to be the best of the best and only invest 100 hours into the game. Guess what. The best of the best don't want YOU amongst them if you only invest 100 hours into the game. If i go back to D2 i can complete this game and have the completed build within 2 weeks. The only upgrades i will make from there on are 8 more defense on my shaco which isn't even noticable. After two weeks my character has the exact same items and attributes as everybody else and as the character i had in the previou season. Even you should understand why this isn't a mechanic Blizzard wanted to recreate.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Dwelve
You can make it TO rare, and there are quite a few people which believe that D2 was somewhat "better" as game thx to the duping which gave great items lets say, more "reasonable" and "affordable" prices. Remember, there are F2P games out there which allow you access to content for a MUCH cheaper price tag and without playing for 3-4 years. For most people already 50 or 100m Gold is already quite a lot - and NO I do NOT see flipping as relevant, I do not believe the AH was made with the idea in mind that people would "flip" their way to the top ...


After two weeks my character has the exact same items and attributes as everybody else and as the character i had in the previou season. Even you should understand why this isn't a mechanic Blizzard wanted to recreate.


This is worse in D3. Everyone uses the same gear and builds for everything.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 08:58 AMPosted by LowBudget780
This is worse in D3. Everyone uses the same gear and builds for everything.


I want to lick your face so badly right now!
Reply Quote
Lack of alternatives is not the same thing as forcing alternatives via hard capping affixes. I agree that there should be way more options for defensive and offensive concepts (read the crafting section http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593582639 and leave a comment!) but convincing players both options are equal is always hard. Sheeple will follow trends.

This also leads me to another big problem you haven't mentioned. The stat comparison screen: Because of it almost all choices come down to this window. I know there are ways to add flavour, but in the end you always compare these two values showing in the stat screen. If it is a + in dps then the player is going to want it. Is it not going to show pretty green stats then the player is not going to want it. The itemslots have lost a lot of flavour because of this. You basicly have only 3 itemslots called dps, health and defense.

Simply lying to the player should not be the way to go. "This item deals more damage, but it actually doesn't, lol" isn't a tooltip i want to see. Of course i agree that the creation of situational strengths is a good thing but it isn't addressed good neither in Diablo 2 nor in Path of Exile and can be done better in D3.


I'm not terribly worried about whether or not players follow trends or go for simple increases in overall levels of DPS/EHP. As for lying to the player, that would have nothing to do with caps (increased stats beyond the cap would not factor into the equations determining those tooltips) and would not even apply with something like cold damage being more effective against enemies with physical resistance. The higher overall damage would still deal more damage in most circumstances, but is simply more situational.

I was actually impressed with your way of reasoning compared to other people on this forum but then this? You honestly think hammerdins are a good addition? Why do you think adding a build that completely trivializes every other option is a good addition? And yes, hammerdins were a problem in D2 just like all barbarians being immune to CC is a problem in D3.

Since you won't read my thread anyway here are a few examples that might make loot a little bit more fun


Where did I say hammerdins are a good addition? The point is that D2 had grossly imbalanced builds and stats yet still had far, far greater customization and diversity in both builds and items.

Since you won't read my thread anyway here are a few examples that might make loot a little bit more fun


The game needs more. Whether it's enchants, new methods of crafting, imbues, runes, jewels, anything, it needs more. But this thread is focused on core itemization issues more than suggestions of how to simply add more to the item game.

with 20k dps, suuuuure.


30k actually (battle rage adds well over 30% to the DPS you see in profile). And yes, I just popped into the game real quick to time how long it takes to kill champion packs, and my average time over 9 packs was ~17 seconds.
Edited by Saigyouji#1546 on 1/29/2013 9:04 AM PST
Reply Quote
+1

Thanks for highlighting the biggest problem with this game.
Reply Quote
Kudos to Op.

Good analysis.

Now, if somebody able to do something about it would care ... 8(
Reply Quote
The game needs more. Whether it's enchants, new methods of crafting, imbues, runes, jewels, anything, it needs more. But this thread is focused on core itemization issues more than suggestions of how to simply add more to the item game.


Focus on finding the solution not on finding the problem. Everybody notices it can be done better.

For someone that eager for feedback you are very restrictive at giving it.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 09:27 AMPosted by Dwelve
The game needs more. Whether it's enchants, new methods of crafting, imbues, runes, jewels, anything, it needs more. But this thread is focused on core itemization issues more than suggestions of how to simply add more to the item game.


Focus on finding the solution not on finding the problem. Everybody notices it can be done better.

For someone that eager for feedback you are very restrictive at giving it.


We need to determine the exact nature of the problem before proposing solutions. There are many on this forum who think simply improving the power of drops would fix itemization, while I think that would actually make things worse. How are we going to come to any kind of consensus on what changes should be made if we can't agree on what problems those changes are supposed to fix?
Reply Quote
Thanks for the well written post op. While I don't agree with everything, I do think that itemization and crafting are severe lacking, both in terms of depth and in terms of diversity.

Other important thing, is the lack of char customization presented to us.
Reply Quote
Rolling an intelligence Skorn isn't the answer to a caster having diversity in weaponry. That is just lazy implementation of weaponry.

The inherent problem with rares in D2 was the same thing. Randomized affixes are like winning the lottery. Nobody finds them. They just bot until their bot finds them. Then they dupe them while everyone else sits there and wonders why they even exist because they've never seen one. Thinking trifecta boots here in D2.

People logically moved to using unique boots in D2 because unique boots were guaranteed to roll certain affixes that made them much more common and much more reliable. This creates a better environment for accessibility. People then further moved to using runewords because of accessibility to duped runes and whites.

The pattern seems clear enough to me. People want accessibility to the best items in the game. They don't play D2 for the lottery. They play for character builds and diversity in said builds + gear outlooks.

The point on combat statistics is also an interesting one. FHR and CB are two vital stats that cannot continue to be ignored. These were critical in the approach to making character design fun and interesting. I recall looking up breakpoints myself and reading on the game to be fun, not a chore. This is the sort of thing I do with Dark Souls today.

Accessibility needs to be increased. Perhaps leave rares as they are / were and move uniques back to the D2 philosophy of guaranteed affixes. This will reduce their value of the great ones on the AH but there will still be enough variance in value of those affixes to separate the great from the good from the poor.
Edited by Helikzhan#1159 on 1/29/2013 10:33 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,289
View profile
This would stay true to the D3 skills while adding some build diversity. Since characters dont have skill trees, I suggest a new class of armor and weapons that have skill trees.

Weapons/Armor start out weaker.

You have to grind to upgrade/improve your gear over time, choices are permanent.

New armor/weapon skills should make a lot more of a difference than current affixes.

Would allow for a single character to have several different builds by using different armor/weapons. A player could change character skills and use different armor/weapons for a completely different build.
Edited by GenghisKhan#1476 on 1/29/2013 10:54 AM PST
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 05:46 AMPosted by Saigyouji
I don't see how 3, 5 or 6 are true, and we know 7 is incorrect because the loot today is already massively improved from the loot at release. A few weeks after release my monk had a pair of Shenlong's weapons. Neither of them had more than 500 dps.


- 3 means if we had stat points, we could offset the gear we get that comes with crap stats
- 5 means if a skill tree was present, we could beef up existing skills instead of being stuck with useless affixes on items.
- 6 means a skill tree wouldn't matter if better quality gear dropped overall, which still plays into the crap system
- 7 is 100% correct because the blues have already stated that the RMAH and AH factors into drops because they don't want that many items available at any given time. Their exact words were "not gearing up too quickly"

They've not only stated it, but they've stated it multiple times. The RMAH is your culprit.. everything stems from that.
Reply Quote
the most thoughtful post I have ever seen in this forum !
bump!
Reply Quote
- 7 is 100% correct because the blues have already stated that the RMAH and AH factors into drops because they don't want that many items available at any given time. Their exact words were "not gearing up too quickly"


Didn't Bashiok go back and redress that? In any case, it's clearly not reflected in reality:

On the auction house right now there's an entire page full of skorns for 100k gold or less. Give a barb that item and he'll start one-shotting champions in inferno A3 on MP0 (the setting of greatest loot farming efficiency).

Or how about a 1400 dps IK maul for 50k gold?

I don't know to what extent, if any, the auction house factors into drop rates. What I do know is that Bashiok explicitly states that the game was tested and balanced without the AH; that it's easy to acquire the gear necessary to farm A3 inferno without touching the AH; and that if drop rates are intended to be balanced around making good items difficult to obtain on the AH, then they've completely and utterly failed in that goal, as the auction house is flooded with inferno-stomping items for 100k gold or less.
Reply Quote
01/29/2013 09:32 AMPosted by Saigyouji
We need to determine the exact nature of the problem before proposing solutions. There are many on this forum who think simply improving the power of drops would fix itemization, while I think that would actually make things worse. How are we going to come to any kind of consensus on what changes should be made if we can't agree on what problems those changes are supposed to fix?


The problem has been determined. Now offer detailed solutions. And saying "improve itemization" or "add affixes" is not a solution give details why you want which thing.
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/29/2013 11:16 AM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]