Diablo® III

Getting clear on why items suck (long)

01/29/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Dwelve
You can make it TO rare, and there are quite a few people which believe that D2 was somewhat "better" as game thx to the duping which gave great items lets say, more "reasonable" and "affordable" prices. Remember, there are F2P games out there which allow you access to content for a MUCH cheaper price tag and without playing for 3-4 years. For most people already 50 or 100m Gold is already quite a lot - and NO I do NOT see flipping as relevant, I do not believe the AH was made with the idea in mind that people would "flip" their way to the top ...


You have access to the ENTIRE CONTENT without spending anything on the game after you buy it. You just want to be the best of the best and only invest 100 hours into the game. Guess what. The best of the best don't want YOU amongst them if you only invest 100 hours into the game. If i go back to D2 i can complete this game and have the completed build within 2 weeks. The only upgrades i will make from there on are 8 more defense on my shaco which isn't even noticable. After two weeks my character has the exact same items and attributes as everybody else and as the character i had in the previou season. Even you should understand why this isn't a mechanic Blizzard wanted to recreate.


Riiiight. Reading is difficult I know. Never did I said I want the best of the best in 100 hours.

But seriously 500 or even more $ for ONE item?

Ask you self. HAS it to be that rare? Who is the target audience for D3? Hardcore players? Thats what they did with Inferno. And see how well that went. THing is, people dont even have a hard time with content as long as there is a light on the end of the tunnel. But to many people have gone in to difficult fights without any rewvard or even worse rewards that are totally disapointing. Like finding 4 skorns, 5 Echoying fury, 3 Mempos, and some more stuff ... guess how much of it has been worth something ...
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But seriously 500 or even more $ for ONE item?Ask you self. HAS it to be that rare? Who is the target audience for D3? Hardcore players? Thats what they did with Inferno. And see how well that went. THing is, people dont even have a hard time with content as long as there is a light on the end of the tunnel. But to many people have gone in to difficult fights without any rewvard or even worse rewards that are totally disapointing. Like finding 4 skorns, 5 Echoying fury, 3 Mempos, and some more stuff ... guess how much of it has been worth something ...


So you are just sad that you have to pay so much for buying items?

If people pay that price it's what they want to do. In D2 people still pay 50$ for jmods. These items are the best of the best and serve their purpose. What would you prefer? That you complete all your itemslots after 500 hours? And then what? This game has no resets, it has no proper itemsinks, so you can not let players cap out. It's not an MMO. Destroying incentives and possibilties for upgrades is not something you want in the game.

What exactly do you mean 4 Skorns weren't worth anything?! If there were more expensive ones on the market there is probably a reason for it. Do you want every skorn to be the exact same BiS item? Or do you want YOUR bad version to be worth more than other people's good version of the item?
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because you can beat D3 in 1 day

-dps
-crit/CD
-main
-all res/vit

use GAH
game over
Edited by iwonsch#1358 on 1/29/2013 12:48 PM PST
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01/29/2013 05:46 AMPosted by Saigyouji
The problem with just giving new options, is that they have to compete with existing ones. As I mentioned in the case of 2-handers, suppose they design new 2-handers with a variety of neat new affixes. Do they have massive crit damage on them? If so, then why use Skorn, when they have the same crit damage but also these new interesting affixes? If not, then why use them? The damage loss associated with 200% crit damage is overwhelming. Conversely, if some of the new affixes are as powerful as crit damage, then you'll "need" weapons that have both the new powerful affixes and crit damage (this would also result in massive power creep). Caps are just one way of addressing these barriers to implementing new, viable, meaningful affixes without running into these issues.


A few examples (from my thread which you still havent replied to!)

2 Hander:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
Increases damage by 1%-5% for every 5% HP missing

1. Hander:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
Increases damage taken by target by 10.000-30.000 damage for every finished attack.

Chest:
x-y armor
blablabla
blablabla
2%-8% chance to deflect an attack and deal 20%-60% of it's damage to ever enemy in your pickup radius

2-Hand weapon:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
10%-50% chance to summon twice as many minions.
Reduces minion bases abilities cooldown by 1%-50%

Imagine a barb that refuses to heal up.
Imagine a barb that goes nuts on 5 attacks per second frenzy striking harder on every hit.
Imagine a barb that stacks pickupradius and deflects damage on to the entire battlefield
Imagine a barb that has 6 ancients up all the time serving as his pets.
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So you are just sad that you have to pay so much for buying items?

If people pay that price it's what they want to do. In D2 people still pay 50$ for jmods. These items are the best of the best and serve their purpose. What would you prefer? That you complete all your itemslots after 500 hours? And then what? This game has no resets, it has no proper itemsinks, so you can not let players cap out. It's not an MMO. Destroying incentives and possibilties for upgrades is not something you want in the game.

What exactly do you mean 4 Skorns weren't worth anything?! If there were more expensive ones on the market there is probably a reason for it. Do you want every skorn to be the exact same BiS item? Or do you want YOUR bad version to be worth more than other people's good version of the item?

Yeah, pretty much what I want.

You are correct with most of the things. No I dont want to pay 500 $ for items.

Yes I would like to gear up in less then 5000 hours of playtime - who said it would not be fun to play with a high end char either? Every game gets boring at some time anyway ... I mean even if you get one of your characters to the limits there is still a reason to play because you could find items for your monk, DH or what ever else you like.

And yes I would TOTALLY love more quality with the Legendary items or so called BiS items.

Look I would not even mind to find LESS items if they had more QUALITY. So if you play 900 hours and you get one or two of those items it feels REWARDING. Now finding in 900 hours not even ONE really usefull Skorn or other item makes the time you spend somewhat useless.

I dont mind some randomness. But D3 contains definitely way to much of it. And sorry, I do NOT care about the economy. I am not playing the economy.
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01/29/2013 01:58 PMPosted by Dwelve
The problem with just giving new options, is that they have to compete with existing ones. As I mentioned in the case of 2-handers, suppose they design new 2-handers with a variety of neat new affixes. Do they have massive crit damage on them? If so, then why use Skorn, when they have the same crit damage but also these new interesting affixes? If not, then why use them? The damage loss associated with 200% crit damage is overwhelming. Conversely, if some of the new affixes are as powerful as crit damage, then you'll "need" weapons that have both the new powerful affixes and crit damage (this would also result in massive power creep). Caps are just one way of addressing these barriers to implementing new, viable, meaningful affixes without running into these issues.


A few examples (from my thread which you still havent replied to!)

2 Hander:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
Increases damage by 1%-5% for every 5% HP missing

1. Hander:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
Increases damage taken by target by 10.000-30.000 damage for every finished attack.

Chest:
x-y armor
blablabla
blablabla
2%-8% chance to deflect an attack and deal 20%-60% of it's damage to ever enemy in your pickup radius

2-Hand weapon:
x-y damage
blablabla
blablabla
10%-50% chance to summon twice as many minions.
Reduces minion bases abilities cooldown by 1%-50%

Imagine a barb that refuses to heal up.
Imagine a barb that goes nuts on 5 attacks per second frenzy striking harder on every hit.
Imagine a barb that stacks pickupradius and deflects damage on to the entire battlefield
Imagine a barb that has 6 ancients up all the time serving as his pets.


I'm not sure what the second one means, but the other three are extremely situational. Most people won't derive any use from them at all. If you added such things into the affix pool, then most people will just be frustrated even further by useless affixes taking the place of potentially useful ones.
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01/29/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Saigyouji
I'm not sure what the second one means, but the other three are extremely situational. Most people won't derive any use from them at all. If you added such things into the affix pool, then most people will just be frustrated even further by useless affixes taking the place of potentially useful ones.


So you want affixes to be equal in every situation AND change the players playstyle?!

So then please enlighten me how you add flavour to the equip of players becaue i am having problem with the "everybody has to be equal but different" premise.
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01/30/2013 01:48 AMPosted by Dwelve
I'm not sure what the second one means, but the other three are extremely situational. Most people won't derive any use from them at all. If you added such things into the affix pool, then most people will just be frustrated even further by useless affixes taking the place of potentially useful ones.


So you want affixes to be equal in every situation AND change the players playstyle?!

So then please enlighten me how you add flavour to the equip of players becaue i am having problem with the "everybody has to be equal but different" premise.


Eh? Where did I stipulate or imply that premise? You have an unfortunate habit of accusing me of positions I don't hold. Making everyone equal but different is neither necessary nor desirable. Not desirable because you'd have to water down the mechanics to achieve that kind of balance, and not necessary because D2 didn't achieve it yet still had a much better item game.

As I'm forced to mention again, this thread is more about nailing down the exact issues than it is about coming up with suggestions to fix them. The design team is more than capable of designing things to address specific goals, but it's their goals that I think are in serious divergence with a lot of the players. Having said that, one way to achieve meaningful flavour through itemization is, as I've pointed out, by implementing sharp diminishing returns or caps on extremely powerful stats like crit damage. That way you can actually acquire a 2-hander with neat affixes but no crit damage and not gimp your character, since you can acquire sufficient crit damage from your other slots.
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01/30/2013 04:17 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Eh? Where did I stipulate or imply that premise? You have an unfortunate habit of accusing me of positions I don't hold. Making everyone equal but different is neither necessary nor desirable. Not desirable because you'd have to water down the mechanics to achieve that kind of balance, and not necessary because D2 didn't achieve it yet still had a much better item game.


The premise is sarcastic: The opposite of being equal is being different.

01/30/2013 04:17 AMPosted by Saigyouji
As I'm forced to mention again, this thread is more about nailing down the exact issues than it is about coming up with suggestions to fix them. The design team is more than capable of designing things to address specific goals, but it's their goals that I think are in serious divergence with a lot of the players. Having said that, one way to achieve meaningful flavour through itemization is, as I've pointed out, by implementing sharp diminishing returns or caps on extremely powerful stats like crit damage. That way you can actually acquire a 2-hander with neat affixes but no crit damage and not gimp your character, since you can acquire sufficient crit damage from your other slots.


Simply saying "i am not having fun" and then concluding "make it so i have more fun" isn't exactly helpful is it? If you never draw any conclusions from your diagnosis it's also not very helpful.

Forget about the entire critical damage dilemma you seem to be stuck on it. It'll be fixed in 1.1.

You might not have noticed but Blizzard decided to move away from useless affixes on purpose. (Almost) Every affix has a use for every character. If you want to occasionally hit very hard then stack crit, if you want to always hit rather strong go for +damage. If you want to hit fast than prioritize attackspeed. Of course currently this doesn't work as intended because people just go for all attributes whenever it is possible. The problem is that affixes don't compete enough with each other. But making affixes USELESS as in "competely removable without any notice" is NOT a proper way to improve the game. If you add critcaps even though it's still the best way to gain damage, people will just start juggling this affix on the equip. You still are restricted to getting it wether you like it or not.

The goal has to be to create affixes that allow for flavour and situational benefits but are not worthless in every other situation, otherwise we can just go back to the retarted attackspeed vs castspeed system of Diablo 2. I know nostalgia tells you this is the best possible way, but i am very certain there's a better solution to that.

It's sad you didn't understand the second example, as it is the perfect one! So let's give it a try:
On every finished attack you increase the damage the target takes by 10000. This damage is applied after critmodificators. You deal 20.000 damage with the first hit. You deal 30.000 on the second hit. You deal 40.000 on the third hit. You can add a cap of 5 stacks (even though i don't think that's necessary).
So why is this so great? It doesn't scale with +damage, it doesn't scale with crit. It only scales with attackspeed. Even if you are dedicated to crit you won't be sad every time this affix appears on your gear because it gives you more damage. But if you stack attackspeed you are superhappy this affix appears because it scales best with your fast hitting type of play.

% chance to deflect (deflect = you take no damage) is also something i really fell in love with. Imagine you stack that affix as an alternative to the regular all resist. You either can go for this more offensive affix that helps you in several situations or keep stacking all resist to never receive that spiky damage but you also deal less damage. Furthermoe, it doesn't matter if you try to go for one type as the other one never hurts you and is never useless.
Edited by Dwelve#1798 on 1/30/2013 5:15 AM PST
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11. Irrelevance of low level items.

With literally one exception (leoric's signet), items found in normal through hell tend to be useful only for leveling.


True but the AH helps here to make it at least a bit more entertaining. There is a ready market for good low level gear so you can still find stuff to sell. Obviously you'll not make a fortune. However I sold a lvl30 rare belt today for 1,000,000 gold. It was really good 64vit, 84dex but I have no idea who would spend that gold on an item they'll use for an hour or so. I guess people who buy gold do that sort of thing....
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5. Cumulative stats.

This is something I don't think I've ever seen mentioned, yet may be one of the biggest underlying problems with the loot system in D3. You can't get enough of crit damage, crit chance, attack speed, your primary stat, vit, all resistance, or armor. Or pretty much any stat (one of the only exceptions is increased gold/health globe radius). What this means is that if a single item for a given item slot (e.g. inna's pants for leggings) rolls a certain affix, let's say attack speed, then every single other item ever designed or rolled for leggings has to compete with attack speed. Every single 2-hander ever rolled or designed has to compete with the crit damage of skorn. Let's look at D2.

Everybody wants resistances. Everybody wants attack speed (or cast speed, if a caster). BUT those are only effective to a cap. Resistances have a hard cap of 75. Attack/cast speed has breakpoints, and is only effective up to a point. In fact, almost all stats in D2 are like this. What this means, crucially, is that you only need enough of your items to have those stats as is needed up to cap. In D2, resistance was very common in large amounts on shields. If stats were like D3, then shields with no resistances would see very little use. But because of the hard cap, you can get all the resistance you need from other item slots or skills. Thus if you find an awesome new shield that has no resistances, it isn't automatically garbage.

Suppose D3 adopted this. Then suddenly, a weapon largely comparable to Skorn but without the crit damage isn't automatically garbage. If it has an awesome affix on it that you want to use, then you could get your crit damage from other item slots. Furthermore, once you had enough of core, base stats that are essential to your character, you'd be free to acquire interesting and flavourful affixes that seem most appealing to you. Without something like a cap, or sharp diminishing returns, then even if Blizzard implemented new interesting affixes, they would have to compete with existing ones.


I think that this is really one of the biggest problems with D3's itemization. Some affixes are going to be more powerful than others. If you compare and affix like attack speed to an affix like thorns, attack speed is obviously a more powerful affix. Thorns is not inherently a "bad" affix, but it takes up a slot that could attack speed instead. The only restriction on how powerful an affix can become is the number of gear slots that can roll the affix. Space for a less powerful skill affix like thorns is limited and stacking it to its max potential would seriously hurt you as you would have to give up some more powerful affixes to do this. Hard caps and breakpoints would free up affix slots and make less powerful affixes valuable.
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01/30/2013 01:48 AMPosted by Dwelve
I'm not sure what the second one means, but the other three are extremely situational. Most people won't derive any use from them at all. If you added such things into the affix pool, then most people will just be frustrated even further by useless affixes taking the place of potentially useful ones.


So you want affixes to be equal in every situation AND change the players playstyle?!

So then please enlighten me how you add flavour to the equip of players becaue i am having problem with the "everybody has to be equal but different" premise.

not all of the affixes have to be equally usefull.

But seriously, the number of "usefull" affixes right now is like 3. IAS, CC and CD. The rest is something that you "can" use sometimes but you would never trade them for any of the trifecta stats.
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Simply saying "i am not having fun" and then concluding "make it so i have more fun" isn't exactly helpful is it? If you never draw any conclusions from your diagnosis it's also not very helpful.


In what world is that a fair characterization of what I'm doing here?

Forget about the entire critical damage dilemma you seem to be stuck on it. It'll be fixed in 1.1.


No, it won't. Crit damage will always offer a substantial increase to your damage, because that's all that affix does. They're not going to nerf it to the point where crit damage becomes unimportant, which is what it would take for this issue to cease to exist. In any case, crit damage is not unique. Your primary stat, attack speed, crit chance and resistances all have the same problem, just not to quite the severe extent.

But making affixes USELESS as in "competely removable without any notice" is NOT a proper way to improve the game. If you add critcaps even though it's still the best way to gain damage, people will just start juggling this affix on the equip. You still are restricted to getting it wether you like it or not.


In the current iteration, you seek crit damage on every slot it appears to the greatest extent possible, restricting options on every slot in which it rolls. With caps, each one of those slots gets more options because you can skip crit damage on that slot, get it in the other slots, and not suffer a substantial loss of damage. Thus you have substantially greater freedom in your itemization. You're not addressing this at all, just saying it's not an improvement because people will still want crit damage. Well so what?

The goal has to be to create affixes that allow for flavour and situational benefits but are not worthless in every other situation, otherwise we can just go back to the retarted attackspeed vs castspeed system of Diablo 2. I know nostalgia tells you this is the best possible way, but i am very certain there's a better solution to that.


It's not very entertaining discussing with someone who continuously misrepresents your positions on purpose.

It's sad you didn't understand the second example, as it is the perfect one! So let's give it a try:
On every finished attack you increase the damage the target takes by 10000. This damage is applied after critmodificators. You deal 20.000 damage with the first hit. You deal 30.000 on the second hit. You deal 40.000 on the third hit. You can add a cap of 5 stacks (even though i don't think that's necessary).
So why is this so great? It doesn't scale with +damage, it doesn't scale with crit. It only scales with attackspeed. Even if you are dedicated to crit you won't be sad every time this affix appears on your gear because it gives you more damage. But if you stack attackspeed you are superhappy this affix appears because it scales best with your fast hitting type of play.


In many regards you're describing an affix functionally similar to crushing blow, albeit on an inverted damage scale (crushing blow starts extremely strong against a full hp enemy, but grows arbitrarily weak as its hp decreases; your affix starts weak, but grows arbitrarily strong over time). I think such an affix would be a good addition, and this is addressed by my fourth point.

Having said that, your particular suggestion suffers from a serious problem. Are you suggesting that this affix becomes a meaningful alternative to crit damage? It would have to do quite a substantial amount of damage in order to compete with crit damage. But since it's independent of your on-paper DPS, it will deal that massive damage even for horribly undergeared players. What this means is that this new affix will be the sole viable choice for people who are just starting to gear up. Crushing blow avoids this problem by becoming weak as enemy hp decreases, so that you do need some other DPS as well.

Then of course there's the fundamental problem that if this affix is strong enough to compete with crit damage, then it'll just become another stat to stack alongside crit damage, primary stat, and the weapon damage affixes.
Edited by Saigyouji#1546 on 1/30/2013 12:22 PM PST
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I am afraid there is no way how to fix this issue without well pissing of a large part of the players.

I mean as much as we all agree that the itemisation leads to a very restricted kind of character creation and item hunt its sadly a reality that Diablo 3 was designed from the get to the go around this item and skill system (you can not talk about items without the skills which use them, your WHOLE damage depends more or less on the weapon for example which makes it one of the most important items).

Now, at this point pretty much EVERY character who is going for damage and higher difficulty will search for the same kind of item, well almost. You know what I mean, trifecta stuff etc. And trying to throw a cap on something like crit damage might be even "usefulL" or the "right" idea (I doubt it, but lets assume it is), it will give many people the same feeling like with the IAS nerf not long ago. A lot of people have quit the game simply because of that part. Over night a large part of your gear became useless. You lost pretty much half of your DPS, thats not very fun if you spend a lot of time on the item hunt. And please do not come up with "well you saw that one coming!" or that it was abusing the system. Its not the players fault if Blizz cant test their system properly. And they said they never tested Inferno really. This allone tells us a lot.

What should be done is a rework of the system where you have more choices and particularly more items that actually feel different. And I guess if we ever see that happen it will be in the expansion
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I am afraid there is no way how to fix this issue without well pissing of a large part of the players.


If that's what it takes to make the game better, then so be it. I'm not here to insist that caps or sharp diminishing returns are the only way to fix itemization issues. I'm just trying to determine the exact problems, and looking at how some of these problems were avoided in D2.

They have, however, set a precedent with how they handled IAS. While they probably don't want to make such a change as suddenly as they did with attack speed, it did show their willingness to make needed changes, even with the obvious backlash that would result.
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Found a 6-prop recipe for barb-only belt on my self-found barb. Thought I could upgrade my 0-strength belt from hell with it, but after spending 2 million gold and tons of crafting mats, nope. No upgrades.

Crafting is actually worse than I thought.
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My apologies for necroing my own thread, but since the upcoming patch is supposedly the big itemization patch, and since I still see lots of people complaining that the quality of drops is intentionally gimped due to the AH, I feel that this is the ideal time to have this discussion.

I won't keep it bumped if it dies again.
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Excellent post.

I would also add to #11

Really poor player had a chance to farm for lowball runes and gems and accumulate enough of them trade them for good items.

ie: I'm really poor and weak in D2, i can trade 40rals or 40 pgems for something better.

There is nothing of use for top players that drops for new / poor players in order to help them out through trade.

Not sure if i'm making any sense here, excuse my english.
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My apologies for necroing my own thread, but since the upcoming patch is supposedly the big itemization patch, and since I still see lots of people complaining that the quality of drops is intentionally gimped due to the AH, I feel that this is the ideal time to have this discussion.

I won't keep it bumped if it dies again.


Very nice post OP. I 100% agree with you on all the itemization concerns you posted. The only thing I dissagree with is that the auction house as a whole, hinders the game more then it helps. I feel the AH, more specifically the RMAH has absolutly annhilated this game.

In Diablo 2, GG gear didnt seem a rare as it is in Diablo 3. My buddy did run a bot in D2, and If he left his bot doing Baal runs 24/7 for a week strait, you could guarentee he would have picked up which ever Item he was looking for, Programmed into his grab-it program. Even though we will never be able to proove it, I still strongly feel there is some sort of link between the RMAH, and the upper teir item drop rates. If you botted D3 for a month strait doing what ever max efficiency run you can think of, there is no guarentee you will get anything worthwhile.

It seems this game is purpose built for one thing. Money. All the best items in the game, the $250 items, are throttled to keep them that rare. The one thing that backfired on blizzard is they cannot ask for more then $250, most likely due to some law, and all their GG item market went 3rd party, so they are missing out on the money now. There is no reason for this throttle anymore.

That and the fact that the primary source of income in D3 is flipping items. Or buying more gold. This is a total fail in its own right.

Diablo 3 might as well been made my Zynga.
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