Diablo® III

+Armor is underrated?

Hello fellow monks,

In this thread I wish to discuss about the +Armor affix among our gears.

Personally I think that +Armor affix is underrated among the DEX community, this including DH and Monk. I don't see much DHs emphasizing on armor as they kite around and it makes sense to have little armor, but among the Monk community I also won't see many of them (beside the palamonk S&B build), most of us are still relying on the STI to buff up the armor rating.

Now lets talk about the mechanics of getting +Armor, +Armor affix can roll a max +397 on major pieces and +265 on others. I think the effort are similar to double stack OwE, by utilize ONE RNG roll on every possible pieces we can achieve the 5k armor mark.

When I decided to gear out from OwE dependency previously, I was also getting rid of the STI in mind. The reasons to push me over this is that the AR affix can roll +80AR on pieces with a max stacking of +880AR and there are a lot of legendary/set that had the native +AR rolled. So instead of going for double resist, I swap out the single resist slot for +Armor.

Next lets talk about mitigation and ehp. I've seen ppl who pumped up high Dex and use STI for the armor bonus and sacrifice a passive (along with OwE, 2/3 passive is filled), or high VIT that results in >50k hp but with a low armor. While everybody is suggesting 600AR+5k Armor to balance up the defensive with both OwE & STI, stapled these 2 passive means we had very little way to choose the remaining passive.

During 4 monk Ubers sessions, I've seen other fellow monks who had health pool problem when facing Ghom. Their HP are hovering in between 30-70% (with the exception of serenity period it filled back to 100%) even with MoE:HT & MoH:ToN casted. While we can rely on the LoH/LPSS/LS for the health regen part.

What do you guys think?
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I think Strength would fall into the same category.
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If you are weening off OwE, armor may seem like a good roll at first, but if you consider the best in slot items and the limited number of random rolls they have, it simply cannot beat a good dex+vit roll.

It comes down to this... there are two ways to farm MP10:
1) 150k DPS, 5%+ LS, ~800 res, ~6k armor
2) 200k+ DPS, 5%+ LS, ~650 res, ~5k armor

Option 1, particularly if you want to drop STI and OwE, needs the armor roll you speak of, yes.

However, Option 2 needs that roll for extra dex and vit to push DPS further. This is the preferred option as it will obviously farm MP10 faster.

Armor is a good option to go to when transitioning especially because it's cheaper, but if you're serious about dropping OwE and STI, why not go for option 2?
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If you are weening off OwE, armor may seem like a good roll at first, but if you consider the best in slot items and the limited number of random rolls they have, it simply cannot beat a good dex+vit roll.

It comes down to this... there are two ways to farm MP10:
1) 150k DPS, 5%+ LS, ~800 res, ~6k armor
2) 200k+ DPS, 5%+ LS, ~650 res, ~5k armor

Option 1, particularly if you want to drop STI and OwE, needs the armor roll you speak of, yes.

However, Option 2 needs that roll for extra dex and vit to push DPS further. This is the preferred option as it will obviously farm MP10 faster.

Armor is a good option to go to when transitioning especially because it's cheaper, but if you're serious about dropping OwE and STI, why not go for option 2?


I'll take option 2. I just need another 15k or so DPS (I'm @176k unbuffed) and that ever-elusive LS EF to round out the requirements. : )

With that said, I definitely don't shun STR in my armor. If a piece meets my requirements and has either STR or INT, I'm a happy camper. As an aside, I would love to have a passive that boosts the benefits of INT and/or STR to provide an alternative to STI or OWE. It could serve as a stopgap when a monk is trying to gear away from one or the other.
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one of the reason also because it is WAY MUCH MUCH MORE CHEAPER!
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@DictatoHead

as for your option 2, how much +Dex you can roll extras into a single RNG? I would assume +100dex or +50dex+50vit vice versa

typical offensive stats CHC/CHD/IAS/MIN-MAX DMG are not accounted for as we all know it contribute a lots of offensive dps.
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random roll can be up to 100dex+100vit on top of legendary stats. ie. inna's pants can go 200dex/100 vit

in terms of effective health, 100 vit can trump even 80AR at high levels... now factor in the 100 dex as well, and you really can't beat it. (maybe 12% life can if your vit is really high already)
Edited by DictatoHead#1899 on 1/29/2013 9:20 PM PST
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Armor is a nice stat to have on gear, although you don't want to sacrifice dex or vit.
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ok at what HP level we can start to think of not getting more VIT? 40k? 45k?
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01/29/2013 06:34 PMPosted by yuhhaur
Personally I think that +Armor affix is underrated among the DEX community

01/29/2013 07:58 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
I think Strength would fall into the same category.

100% agree.

If you are weening off OwE, armor may seem like a good roll at first, but if you consider the best in slot items and the limited number of random rolls they have, it simply cannot beat a good dex+vit roll.

It comes down to this... there are two ways to farm MP10:
1) 150k DPS, 5%+ LS, ~800 res, ~6k armor
2) 200k+ DPS, 5%+ LS, ~650 res, ~5k armor

Option 1, particularly if you want to drop STI and OwE, needs the armor roll you speak of, yes.

However, Option 2 needs that roll for extra dex and vit to push DPS further. This is the preferred option as it will obviously farm MP10 faster.

Armor is a good option to go to when transitioning especially because it's cheaper, but if you're serious about dropping OwE and STI, why not go for option 2?

Thats interesting. I went with option #3 where I got all my defensive needs from equipment thus freeing up skills to be 100% offensive and group buffing. My stats are basically:

3) ~170k dps (generous under exaggeration), 3% ls, 825 loh, 1.3k lps, 625 res, 6k armor, 48k hp

And I do just fine doing mp10 keys and ubers with my friends. I can also bring GL+TFIW without sacrificing self dps, which means I also bring 28% more dmg to everybody I play with.

Imo you're falling into the trap of thinking too narrowly about specific requirements to accomplish something (handling mp10).

01/29/2013 09:54 PMPosted by yuhhaur
ok at what HP level we can start to think of not getting more VIT? 40k? 45k?

Honestly? 45k is probably the very minimum if you're thinking of mp10 in mind. Even with that though you'll come incredibly close to being one shotted by SK. I'd definitely say if you want to be safe 50k is a great # to shoot for.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/29/2013 10:16 PM PST
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i don't read... but i dropped AR to go with Armor and Vit and with my non tr gear, i run ubbers in the buttt, mp 10 style.
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Answer the topic, no, +armor is not underrated.

We can use the ehp calculator to check up the question.
In my case, +20 all resist and +200 armor increase the same ehp in any situation.
What's that means? It's means that even u get 1000 resist and 2000 armor only, 20 all resist is still as powerful as 200 armor.

Consider the equipment affix, we can get 80 all resist on one eq, but only Chest, Head and Pants could provide 800+ armor. It is easy to make a conclusion, the more resistance u have, the less armor u need.

If ppl wanna farm mp10, I suggest that (resistance*10)+(Armor)>12000 HP>50000.
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I apologize for my generalization, but my point remains.

A 400 armor roll is nice, but a 100 dex+ 100 vit roll is often better. You'll end up with higher DPS with the latter and still survive because you get more back from LS. This means you are farm faster, whether in a group or alone.

As for how much vit you actually need depends on the rest of your stats. You need to think in terms of effective health. ie. a person with 500 vit and a whole lot of armor/res/block/dodge has more effective health than a person with just 1000 vit and nothing else.

I recommend using online calculators to figure things out exactly. Try d3rawr and d3up (google). I remember running MP10 with 400,000 EHP at first...
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At first I though of STR falls into the same category, but unfortunately STR does not roll as high as Armor in an affix. hence I drop STR in the discussion. If it roll, better to roll +Armor than STR

Of course, as what @Treleth mentioned, if it had rolled the STR, just take it.
INT wise, I think we can pretty screw it up 10INT:1AR = >:( (unless it comes by native roll i.e. Tal chest :p )
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01/29/2013 10:59 PMPosted by DictatoHead
I remember running MP10 with 400,000 EHP at first...


So we are safe to say that 400k ehp are sufficient in MP10?
Edited by yuhhaur#1278 on 1/29/2013 11:03 PM PST
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apologize for my generalization, but my point remains.

A 400 armor roll is nice, but a 100 dex+ 100 vit roll is often better.

That I'll definitely agree with. I'd even take it a step further and just say 100 vit > 400 armor without the dex.

(1) At first I though of STR falls into the same category, but unfortunately STR does not roll as high as Armor in an affix. hence I drop STR in the discussion. If it roll, better to roll +Armor than STR

(2) Of course, as what @Treleth mentioned, if it had rolled the STR, just take it.
INT wise, I think we can pretty screw it up 10INT:1AR = >:( (unless it comes by native roll i.e. Tal chest :p )

1. Yes I agree, an armor roll will always be better. However, there are certain cases where picking up some isn't that bad an idea if you cannot afford alternatives such as Vit. Slots this comes to mind on specifically are shoulders and boots. Especially shoulders, considering Vile Wards already come with +armor, and str can roll up to 300 iirc. A pair of Nat's boots with Vit is also pretty expensive, so a str+dex/int+dex roll is a perfectly suitable replacement. Which brings me to #2;

2. Given the general consensus that 1 res =~ 10 armor, its actually safe to say that str=int in terms of value. If you roll 158 str which is 158 armor, or you roll 158 int which is 15.8 res, you're still getting roughly the same amount of mitigation.

01/29/2013 11:03 PMPosted by yuhhaur
I remember running MP10 with 400,000 EHP at first...


So we are safe to say that 400k ehp are sufficient in MP10?

If you have enough dps and sustain to support it, sure. However, the lower your ehp is, the higher the dps and sustain will need to be to handle incoming burst damage like SK and Kulle. I would tend to suggest 500k ehp as a safer baseline for doing mp10 myself, but thats just me.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/29/2013 11:10 PM PST
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Answer the topic, no, +armor is not underrated.

We can use the ehp calculator to check up the question.
In my case, +20 all resist and +200 armor increase the same ehp in any situation.
What's that means? It's means that even u get 1000 resist and 2000 armor only, 20 all resist is still as powerful as 200 armor.

Consider the equipment affix, we can get 80 all resist on one eq, but only Chest, Head and Pants could provide 800+ armor. It is easy to make a conclusion, the more resistance u have, the less armor u need.

If ppl wanna farm mp10, I suggest that (resistance*10)+(Armor)>12000 HP>50000.


I'm a barb, don't know how I ended up here :)

what this guy said is so wrong.

AR and armor ideal ratio is 1:10. 600 ar 6k armor will always be better than 300 ar 9k arm or 900ar 3k arm.

of course the arm rolls are a lot less than ar rolls and usually u end up with more ar, even for a lot of barbs...

check this spreadsheet made by a barb a long time ago, it still applies now. 1ar = 10 arm only when they are in 1:10 ratio.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudEFJTUpBYU54aFZCX3JlcHhqSVhwOEE&output=html
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One subtle point that I think that many folks may actually not factor into the equation is the effects of healing for a monk. I think OP kind of gets into it a little bit, but I'll expand the thought further here.

Because most of monk's healing is static in nature, when you look at the return on life (be it from our BW, potions, LoH, LS, LpSS, etc), it will be a higher % of life returned if you have a smaller health pool. In other words, 5K HP heal has a greater effect on a monk that has 30K HP than one that has 80K HP.

So how does this factor in to the OP? If you have more armor, more resistances, then you need less HP to attain the same EHP. If you need less HP, then each heal will actually be more effective for the monk than if you ignore armor and go for high HP. In effect, more mitigation leads to higher effective sustain.

This is all to support OPs point that +armor is undervalued. I think that it would serve non-OWE monks well to double stack AR and +armor whenever possible, as that increases your % damage mitigation, increases effectiveness of each HP, and therefore increases effectiveness of each HP healed.

Personally, I'm coming close to the 6K armor, 6K AR balance... I need armor in some other key places to get this down, but I think that this is more effective than the 5K armor, 7K AR that most monks strive for. Not by much, but it also means that each AR that I get from this point forward will be more effective than if armor was below 5K (check EHP spreadsheet / calculator for proof).

One more sidebar point. With 6K Armor, it makes it easier/cheaper to gear without OWE, since you'd need 100 less resist to attain similar % damage mitigation as the 5K Armor, 700 AR ratio. I'm not there yet, but I look forward to the day that I can actually do this. :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/30/2013 7:41 AM PST
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I don't understand how can you reach 6k armor without STI and shield.
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