Diablo® III

Remove knockback from Wave of light!

This ability is an awesome aoe nuke and when patch 1.0.7 drops it is going to be amazing.

The problem here is that it is an aoe ability with a knockback. The ability is completely counter productive with intention of using it more than once. This is especially annoying when using the blinding light rune. When I stun a pack of mobs it is usually to control mobs not to lose control of them.

The only way to really retain control of this ability is to combine with with cyclone strike basically using an extra chunk of spirit on top of an already fairly costly ability.

All I ask is to remove this annoyance from wave of light... Leave the knockbacks to lashing tail kick.
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Honestly, that's why I have never lasted more than a few runs with WOL. I would be using bells already before patch if it weren't for that... and the crazy spirit cost.
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This ability is an awesome aoe nuke and when patch 1.0.7 drops it is going to be amazing.

The problem here is that it is an aoe ability with a knockback. The ability is completely counter productive with intention of using it more than once. This is especially annoying when using the blinding light rune. When I stun a pack of mobs it is usually to control mobs not to lose control of them.

The only way to really retain control of this ability is to combine with with cyclone strike basically using an extra chunk of spirit on top of an already fairly costly ability.

All I ask is to remove this annoyance from wave of light... Leave the knockbacks to lashing tail kick.


So, I have been running with a 0spirit gen WoL build for the last 2 weeks in prep for 1.0.7 when this will become my dominant build.

I have been doing a LOT of thinking about it and here is my conclusion:
I think that, initially, Blizz wanted Monks to be a "damage avoidance" class in every single respect.

To achieve that archetype, they gave us tons of dodge, then dodge skills THEN they also piled on TONS of soft-crowd-control built into all of our skills. The third hit of FoT knocks back (which REALLY sucks for non Thunderclap users) the third(?) hit of DR "dazes" or "stutters" the mobs, the second hit of WotHF stuns and the third hit knocks back.

Then they attached these "soft-CC" mitigation effects to nearly every one of our skills.
LTK - knockback (even the major DPS oriented runes that you would WANT to spam have this!)
TR - knockback (making it nearly impossible to use like baba WW)
WoL - knockback
DS - root (the only hard-CC yay)
Cyclone Strike - pull
SSS - invuln

What ended up happening is that Monks, on average, WOULD take far far far less total hits than other classes even when in melee range.

This was actually pretty cool in 1.0.2 when mobs hit like trucks and LTK:Sweeping Armada was on a LOT of top monk's skill-bar.

Then in 1.0.3 they nerfed Inferno DPS so hard that 100% of every class switched to a 100% offensive build orientation.

This made "soft-CC" VERY undesirable because incoming damage was no longer as much of an issue as outgoing damage.

They eventually added Monster Power but this increases the requirement for mitigation at a FAR lower rate than the requirement for outgoing damage. (mob DPS increases much more slowly than mob HP)

And so, we are where we are. All of the skills you WANT to use have soft-cc attached to them from back when Monks were meant to avoid taking hits.

My proposed solution:
A. Stick with it, make it more of a class-core mechanic and make a TON more movement-altering skills to go alongside the soft-cc knock backs and stutters. (FoT:TC being the only REALLY reliable movement skill that doesn't take MORE of the resource the soft-cc skills themselves use)

B. Give up on monks "avoiding" damage and accept the fact that this is a Diablo game where people WANT to wade knee deep in the bodies of their slain foes. Change most of the soft-CC to conditional damage or conditional hard-CC (stuns/roots) or just remove them completely.

As the OP states, WoL would be a FLAT OUT better skill without the soft-cc.

When removing a "beneficial" mechanic would make a skill MORE desirable ... you know something needs to be changed.

-Druin, the happy monk
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I used WoL for crowd control. If things were getting out of control, I dropped a giant bell into the mix to give myself some room. I -like- the knockback, also the part I like of LTK. Especially for on the way to 60 when you are usually undergeared.
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I disagree that a huge bell would knock you sideways...for every action there is equal and opposite reaction. The only parts that would knocked away would be parts that are no longer attached. If you have a 2 ton bell drop on you, you're not going to fly back 10 yards... well most of you won't the rest will be imprinted on the floor. The knock back mostly comes from the secondary kick anyhow I suppose. I have long since thought they should just have a rune that doesn't have the secondary hit.
Edited by vexelite#1417 on 1/30/2013 10:19 AM PST
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[quote]

When removing a "beneficial" mechanic would make a skill MORE desirable ... you know something needs to be changed.

-Druin, the happy monk


Mmm, yes. It does indicate something. Because as I said after your post, it is best on the way to 60. A -lot- of the Monk skills become less desirable or outright pointless once you hit Paragon and MPs. Which is sad. D:
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@Druin, that is a very interesting and thoughtful tracking of monk skills over the patches, and commentary on the way that monks were designed to use vs. the way that monks are currently being used. According to your post, the phrase "tank monk" should not even really exist (according to D3 design philosophy) since damage avoidance > damage mitigation for the monk class. And yet here we are, where damage avoidance is not prized at all in relation to damage mitigation.

Anyway, gives me more to consider about the monk class. Thanks for the post!
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@Nameless If anything it probably points out that avoidance isn't as effective as mitigation when it comes right down to it.
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01/30/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Sinafae
@Nameless If anything it probably points out that avoidance isn't as effective as mitigation when it comes right down to it.

I think his point is that it is only this case because the damage output by the monsters have been gimped so severely several patches ago. If damage output was actually significantly higher, then avoidance would have far more value. So according to Druin, the nerf to monster damage output essentially gimps one of the greatest inherent strengths that our class has, when it comes to melee skills.

Perhaps this issue needs to be revisited as Blizz works on redesigning elements of the monk class... but perhaps also this is why Blizz is trying to buff monk's spirit spenders too?

Now, I wished that his post was presented to the devs as they consider questions in the "Ask the Devs Q&A" thread.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/30/2013 10:38 AM PST
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I agree, I just didn't explain myself well (a problem I seem to have in the written word LOL).
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01/30/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Druin
They eventually added Monster Power but this increases the requirement for mitigation at a FAR lower rate than the requirement for outgoing damage. (mob DPS increases much more slowly than mob HP)


I get why they did this, but ultimately I feel like this was a big mistake. They keep moving to this point where DPS is a hammer and every problem is a nail. Even with the reflect damage fixes. More and more, they make it so that DPS is all you really need.

The problem with making any changes to the game, though, is that there are so many inter-related parts that you can't change just one thing. Remember when LS was awful? Blizzard said that at the really high end, though, it would be competative with LoH, but so few people could get there. A bunch of patches later, LoH is something everyone grows out of. Side effect: LpSS, which is somewhat competative with LoH, is now bad. "Why can't we have LS on our gear like Barbs?!?!", etc, etc.

I think a lot of issues could be fixed if they found a way to make it so that excessive DPS can stop being so helpful, in the same way that you can have excessive defense. RD did that, albeit in a kinda kludgy way. So did invunerable minons: You needed ways to survive other than "kill it first", and needed ways to manuver. I miss them.

01/30/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Druin
When removing a "beneficial" mechanic would make a skill MORE desirable ... you know something needs to be changed.

I get what you're saying here, but I wouldn't say that's strictly the case. Sometimes it's a good way to weaken an ability while making it more useful in certain situations. Or to make it trickier to use but with a better payoff when you did. These kind of things can be good for a game.
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01/30/2013 10:10 AMPosted by Sinafae
I used WoL for crowd control. If things were getting out of control, I dropped a giant bell into the mix to give myself some room. I -like- the knockback, also the part I like of LTK. Especially for on the way to 60 when you are usually undergeared.


I agree knockback has its uses however this shouldn't be something attached to the majority of the rune varieties. Especially in the case of a rune like blinding light which stuns mobs. I stun because I want control but knockback takes away from this. In my opinion the stun should replace the knockback rather than the ability having both.

Wave of light is a nuke first and foremost especially when patch 1.0.7 drops. Any form of knockback should be associated with only a few or perhaps even just one rune. Players should have a choice in whether they want this ability to knockback.
Edited by Malevo#1666 on 1/30/2013 11:07 AM PST
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I've learned to use it to my advantage. It can be a PITA but it also will save your !@# from really nasty dervish packs and other stuff you DON'T want crowding you.
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I would use WOL in conjunction with Cyclone Strike... but I feel the prohibiting factor is spirit costs.

1...
2..
I'm spent.
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I would use WOL in conjunction with Cyclone Strike... but I feel the prohibiting factor is spirit costs.

1...
2..
I'm spent.

Have you tried it in PTR? I'm curious about impact of damage buffs to both of those skills if used in combination. I've tried to use this (in conjunction with Raahl's infinite spirit regen synergy). It's fun, but hard to pull off effectively on live servers without 1.0.7 damage buffs.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/30/2013 2:07 PM PST
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I haven't on the PTR - just the internet caps here in NZ are useless.
Maybe I just go balls to the wall and download it.

MrMojo and Sam have seen my ultra spam CycStrk build. but it heavily relies on spirit regen and items with reduced cost. you can get -18 in cost to CycStrk, but then you start losing a ton of dps/ehp.

oh yea, I can spam Cyclone Strike for about 10s non-stop. it's luls. REALLY fun in lower MP.
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Yeah, I think I can get a bunch of stun bells off in quick succession in about 5 seconds (non stop), so I can literally stun the whole screen in about that time. Super fun. I'm thinking that the dps buff will make it awesome. Unfortunately, only really effective in party play ATM, since I gimp my edps in order to do this. Once you > double damage on CS/WoL, that might change things up a little bit.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/31/2013 9:30 PM PST
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Wow impressive! I'll have to add you when I finish work.. come 1.07 I can spam C.Strike and you can drop the bells!
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I've always used wave of light for dps. Always. Since patch 1.03. Quickening for spirit regen combined with passive regen. Not sure how many of you actually use it for dps, but i can tell you when farming mp 9 and 10, the last few months, I ONLY farm the keep depths. Why?? Cos of all the walls that prohibit the knockback.

Most other parts of the game are rather open and you drop one bell and are lucky to get a hit on the next one.

So yeah, please remove the knockback. :)
Edited by jds#6768 on 1/30/2013 2:31 PM PST
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