Diablo® III

Regarding the so-called 'depth' in PoE

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


PoE has a complex system that also involves plenty of choices across all three parts of building a character - the passive tree, skill gem choices, and gearing choices.

One of the main points of that video is that providing choices to the player is a significant part of providing depth.

Shocking, I know - a complex system and a simpler system can both have depth, as long as they offer choices.

D3 offers plenty of choices with it's skill rune system (but lacks depth when it comes to gear). PoE also offers plenty of choices with it's gearing and skill gem system, and the passive tree is designed to support the other choices (the skill gems you use and weapons will often, to a degree, point you toward a particular set of passives, but even then there's some freedom - aka choice - in what points you select).

Both games have depth, but some of you staunch D3 fans apparently can't be arsed to understand PoE's system at all, instead using the same "illusion of customization" reasoning that Blizzard used for why they got rid of their own skill trees and stat allocation, ignoring the fact that Blizzard's system was far more limited.
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


PoE has a complex system that also involves plenty of choices across all three parts of building a character - the passive tree, skill gem choices, and gearing choices.

One of the main points of that video is that providing choices to the player is a significant part of providing depth.

Shocking, I know - a complex system and a simpler system can both have depth, as long as they offer choices.

D3 offers plenty of choices with it's skill rune system (but lacks depth when it comes to gear). PoE also offers plenty of choices with it's gearing and skill gem system, and the passive tree is designed to support the other choices (the skill gems you use and weapons will often, to a degree, point you toward a particular set of passives, but even then there's some freedom - aka choice - in what points you select).

Both games have depth, but some of you staunch D3 fans apparently can't be arsed to understand PoE's system at all, instead using the same "illusion of customization" reasoning that Blizzard used for why they got rid of their own skill trees and stat allocation, ignoring the fact that Blizzard's system was far more limited.


Limitations create choices. You will note that the video discusses false choices such as WoW's old talent trees, which aren't really choices. PoE is the same, but on a much larger scale. There will be a mathematically optimal passive build for each class, and possibly one for skills as well.
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Tell me about the choices D3 have to offer.
Tell me about how build are not optimized so there are actually more than 2 viable end-game build.
Tell me about the depths of D3.

You are just mad, about a game you don't even play and pretend to not care. That's sad.
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Chaos innoculation + eldritch battery -> Meaningful choices, complexity mind tasking.
Just 1 example.

as per your link depth = meaningful choices, complexity = mind tasking. How you gonna survive now? It's a legit build.

as opposed to d3 there is 0 depth, none of your choices mean anything, they can be reset and whatever and you have no choice in your stats at all other than gear replacement and never look back.

lol @ end of video, deeper games = better.
PoE3 your choices on that skill tree matter, so they are meaningful?
D3 what meaning does anything have to anythign you haev except for real money transfer on RMAH? if it's all about money then it's not even a game anymore it's just business.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/30/2013 2:37 PM PST
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'depth' is not a term Id use to describe ARPGs in general. real RPGs and point and click adventure games are prolly the only ones that qualify for that term, semantically thinking, imo

anyhow, PoE system actually isn't all that complex once you understand the mechanics. people are daunted by the passive tree and possibilities of combining gems, but in reality there is nothing complex about those as much as there is customization and VARIETY and combinations of different things.

PoE's passive tree is basically you adding stats to your character as you level up. it's really that simple. you have full control of character development and you can royally screw up if you dont understand how the game works. the game doesnt prevent you from making a stupid build because you decided to ignore HP or armor

the gem system, orb system and flask system gives one tons of variety, that, unfortunately, just cannot be had in d3.

Maybe I'm old but I think at this day and age lots of people would whine about complexity of a game like Baldurs Gate and 'complexity' of AD&D rules. Those rules werent easy to grasp right away but once you played a few games youd know it like the back of your hand.

and BGI/II wasnt easy, and it was oh so easy to screw up your characters or to get stuck, even for dedicated players back in the day.

again, this is not about complexity as it is about hand holding and unwillingless to dedicate time to one game. a casual modern player will not want to construct 10 different builds and spend 20 hours on each before he finds out what works and what doesn't. he wouldn't spend hours theorycrafting or crunching formulas in order to powergame. he wouldnt want to do trial and error experimenting. the modern casual gamer looks at other peoples builds on the internet and copies the most efficient one.

in fact, the same applies to PoE. thousands of people there post "take a look at my build" posts, afraid to make one misstep.
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PoE has a complex system that also involves plenty of choices across all three parts of building a character - the passive tree, skill gem choices, and gearing choices.

One of the main points of that video is that providing choices to the player is a significant part of providing depth.

Shocking, I know - a complex system and a simpler system can both have depth, as long as they offer choices.

D3 offers plenty of choices with it's skill rune system (but lacks depth when it comes to gear). PoE also offers plenty of choices with it's gearing and skill gem system, and the passive tree is designed to support the other choices (the skill gems you use and weapons will often, to a degree, point you toward a particular set of passives, but even then there's some freedom - aka choice - in what points you select).

Both games have depth, but some of you staunch D3 fans apparently can't be arsed to understand PoE's system at all, instead using the same "illusion of customization" reasoning that Blizzard used for why they got rid of their own skill trees and stat allocation, ignoring the fact that Blizzard's system was far more limited.


Limitations create choices. You will note that the video discusses false choices such as WoW's old talent trees, which aren't really choices. PoE is the same, but on a much larger scale. There will be a mathematically optimal passive build for each class, and possibly one for skills as well.


If skill gems will have mathematically best builds, so will the skill runes in Diablo 3. Sure you want to continue that line of thought? Gear in D3 has already reached that point.

That said, you're forgetting two important things (and still basing your idea of a skill tree on WoW's very limited old version) - the stats on gear have an effect on what passives you do or don't need, so even the "best builds" - which, by the way, are more based around using particular Keystones, and balancing those is far easier than trying to balance all the other passives - will have variations within them born out of player choice and circumstance. Some builds even rely on having specific types of properties on gear or are based around a single item (usually a unique).

You're also forgetting that the Map system is based around randomization, and that there will not be a single best build for clearing Maps - different conditions mean that a build that is fantastic in one map gets crushed in another. The entire endgame is based around encouraging different builds, rather than simply finding the one that is the most efficient for all things.

The developers have talked about how they were influenced by the deck building mechanics of games like Magic the Gathering, and that was how they went about designing their own character customization/building process. If you know anything about MtG, you know that there is not one single deck that is so good that it trumps all others - that is how PoE is being designed, which encourages choices.

On top of all that, much like with Arenanet in GW1, GGG have talked about that they aren't afraid to change things around to shift the metagame (and provide passive tree resets when it happens) if a particular set of skills or builds reach that point where they are the "mathematically best builds." The best builds this year could be trumped by a new set of builds next year.

The limitations that lead to choice are there (in the end-game maps system, and in the different properties found in different mob damage types and other qualities), just not in a place most critics think to look. Blizzard has you thinking on their level and about their systems when you look at these other systems, and you just can't approach them the same way.
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I guess point of my rant was I think neither d3 or poe are complex.

poe just has far more variety whereas barring a few legendary items, all of d3s variety and synergy comes from choosing 6 active runes and 3 passive runes. poe has many levels of variety, expanding on D2s standards.

on other hand, playing poe and being good at it doesnt give one the right to be condescending or thinking youre hardcore or just some tough sh!t. at its core its just another hack and slash game. there isnt role playing or complex chess-like strategy involved. it just has more variables than, say, d3
Edited by grepman#1848 on 1/30/2013 2:57 PM PST
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Oh dear. Please, please don't tell me you're one of those people who prefers WoW's new "talent choices" and D3s "runes" to D2s skill tree and PoEs passive tree.. I'm not even joking, I'm genuinely concerned here.
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I guess point of my rant was I think neither d3 or poe are complex.

poe just has far more variety whereas barring a few legendary items, all of d3s variety and synergy comes from choosing 6 active runes and 3 passive runes. poe has many levels of variety, expanding on D2s standards.

on other hand, playing poe and being good at it doesnt give one the right to be condescending or thinking youre hardcore or just some tough sh!t. at its core its just another hack and slash game. there isnt role playing or complex chess-like strategy involved. it just has more variables than, say, d3


You're an interesting one. No-one's saying PoE is the most complex thing since the Rubix Cube or anything. You then go on to describe PoEs variety and complexity and say that neither of them are complex.

The material point is - PoE forces you to make difficult, permanent choices. This leads to character attachment, uniqueness etc. In D3, we're all the same. Click a couple buttons and you're a mirror image of another.
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I guess point of my rant was I think neither d3 or poe are complex.

poe just has far more variety whereas barring a few legendary items, all of d3s variety and synergy comes from choosing 6 active runes and 3 passive runes. poe has many levels of variety, expanding on D2s standards.

on other hand, playing poe and being good at it doesnt give one the right to be condescending or thinking youre hardcore or just some tough sh!t. at its core its just another hack and slash game. there isnt role playing or complex chess-like strategy involved. it just has more variables than, say, d3


You're an interesting one. No-one's saying PoE is the most complex thing since the Rubix Cube or anything. You then go on to describe PoEs variety and complexity and say that neither of them are complex.

The material point is - PoE forces you to make difficult, permanent choices. This leads to character attachment, uniqueness etc. In D3, we're all the same. Click a couple buttons and you're a mirror image of another.

neither of them are complex in a way that make you really think strategically.

I did say poe has way more variety, I just wouldnt call it complexity, semantically. whatever you want to call it, it has far more ways of doing things than d3, which got very repetitive and cookie-cutter after a while. and I liked d3 for what it is.
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Chaos innoculation + eldritch battery -> Meaningful choices, complexity mind tasking.
Just 1 example.

as per your link depth = meaningful choices, complexity = mind tasking. How you gonna survive now? It's a legit build.

as opposed to d3 there is 0 depth, none of your choices mean anything, they can be reset and whatever and you have no choice in your stats at all other than gear replacement and never look back.

lol @ end of video, deeper games = better.
PoE3 your choices on that skill tree matter, so they are meaningful?
D3 what meaning does anything have to anythign you haev except for real money transfer on RMAH? if it's all about money then it's not even a game anymore it's just business.


depth is NOT being unable to press undo. Being forced to stick with your choices does not make them meaningful. meaningful choices are choices that really affect how you play the game. D3's passives/actives/runes and PoE's skills/keystones are examples of meaningful choices.

Builds such as Chaos Innoculation + Eldritch battery can be mathed. Really, everything in every game can be mathed. However, the majority of the passives are not like that (instead, they are +dex or +as). In the end, you get to pick only a handful of keystone. In D3, you also get to pick only a handful, but you can change it if you find out that the choice you made was poor or if you simply want a change of pace.

PoE lets you pick 8 skills, which is obviously a larger number than six. However, more does not mean better. IMO having to level your skills will just be a pain. While I was playing (made it most of the way through act one before I got fed up with the clunky combat and awful hitboxes). The skills in D3, from what I've seen, have more variety in effect than PoE. however, that could have been poor drop luck on my part in PoE.

In regards to stats, the 'choice' is the same in both games. In D3, you can go tanky or you can go glassy or you can mix it some. The same, I would assume, applies in PoE. In both cases, it's pretty much just math 'choices' once you've chosen a playstyle.

tl;dr: PoE doesn't really offer any more choices than D3. They both offer equivalent amounts, but PoE offers many false choices along with them (do those little passives even matter if you're only using them to reach a keystone?) I am not arguing that D3 > PoE or visa versa, or that PoE has no choice (which would be silly, because it does). I am arguing that citing things like the '1350 passive skills' is ridiculous, because 1300 of them are just +10 to a stat that you take on the way to a meaningful ability
Edited by Atlanis#1601 on 1/30/2013 4:03 PM PST
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tl;dr: PoE doesn't really offer any more choices than D3

but, it does....combinations of skill gem and support gems in different sockets, pot management, currency management and item characteristics all give far more choices than D3...and thats without keystone passives which change gameplay a lot and general passives.

also, your choices matter more, because in D3 top gear is everything. if you have the best items you'll faceroll content. not so much in PoE. in PoE if you went glass cannon on all your passives, you wont be able to survive on merciless even with absolutely the best items

and, of course, there is no clear winner for 'best items' because the best items are the ones that are great AND suit your build. maybe you even base your build around one once you find it.

in D3, best in slot item is usually high primary stat+perfect all res+high vit+crit chance/dmg/attack speed(if applicable)>>>>everything else, period.
Edited by grepman#1848 on 1/30/2013 4:51 PM PST
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


This video gives CoD as an example of a game with depth.
/thread
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01/30/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Atlanis
Really, everything in every game can be mathed.


Go do euler puzzles and problems and stop playing games. unless you're all saying complexity = hidden modifiers then PoE does offer some. but the title about depth is something PoE has. the choices you make are meaningful if you claim otherwise that's a bit of a stretch to have me believe it, it's not main stat + vit game and most of what you make are permanent (YES IM AWARE OF RESPEC POINTS), either way keystone or not those 111 choices you make on that 1350 skill tree are MEANINGFUL, d3 it's kill as many monsters as possible and gain a level = your meaningful in terms of STATS; you don't even allocate your stats in D3. it's dumb.(And yes I have reasons as to WHY it's dumb, but i'm not going to elaborate)

01/30/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Atlanis
In regards to stats, the 'choice' is the same in both games. In D3, you can go tanky or you can go glassy or you can mix it some. The same, I would assume, applies in PoE. In both cases, it's pretty much just math 'choices' once you've chosen a playstyle.

wtf? just no. In regards to stats d3 you don't make any or set any it's a complete poinltess waste to display them at all on the statistics screen when player has 0 control over it. Stop assuming and get some factual evidence by PLAYING both games b4 passing judgment. You can math anything in the world its just whether or not the person coming up with the math has realized it. It's just a theory to realize something we don't understand, that's math. Translation of worldly things to human understanding.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/30/2013 8:06 PM PST
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Making this thread was a stupid idea, I see. You can't argue with preachers.
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01/31/2013 02:05 AMPosted by Atlanis
Making this thread was a stupid idea, I see. You can't argue with preachers.


Looking at your career, and after watching the video taking CoD as a game with depth... I don't know it feels like you don't really know what you are talking about. For example, you overclaim PoE can be mathed, well... so does D3, D2, the Elders Scrolls, Starcraft builds... I mean that's why theorycrafting exist. And i'll also say, it's really one of the funniest part in any RPG.

No offense though. You just need more information.
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01/31/2013 02:05 AMPosted by Atlanis
Making this thread was a stupid idea, I see. You can't argue with preachers.


You really are missing the forest for the trees, dude.
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It also looks like you're missing the point of the stat gains along to other passives. Those +10 str/int/dex add up, and those stats are the cornerstone of determining what skills and passives you're going to get. Let me lay it out a bit for you:

Strength: 10 Str = +5 Life, +2% melee physical damage
Intelligence: 10 Int = +5 mana, +2% energy shield
Dexterity: 10 Dex = +20 accuracy, +2% evasion

There is also a ton of equipment in this game that are based on any one of those stats or a combination of them. Heavy Armor with large "Armor" amounts are based on strength, Robes with large amounts of Energy Shield are based on intelligence, and Leathers with large amounts of evasion are based on Dexterity. Then there is equipment with combinations of those stats with combinations of armor/energy shield (str/int), evasion/energy shield (dex/int), armor/evasion (str/dex).

So if you started with a Marauder who wanted to focus on large amounts of strength, armor, and physical damage, then you want passives that focus on those while looking for affixes on gear that covers your weaknesses. Or you could start as a Marauder whom wants to focus on a bit of armor, but more energy shield, so you get gear based on Str/Int, and head into the Templar side of the tree.

And you can think that way for every class. Yeah, there may end up being a "mathematically efficient" build for each class, but there are so many other meaningful choices you can make with your stats, passives, and skills in such a way that you will rarely meet up with another character with the same itemization/build.
Edited by Begaria#1359 on 1/31/2013 6:52 AM PST
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