Diablo® III

Regarding the so-called 'depth' in PoE

85 Draenei Hunter
7530
Posts: 3,172
01/30/2013 07:47 PMPosted by TemptedNZ
Also D3s depth has every single player looking for exactly the same stats on exactly the same items. And when everyone was racing to 100 paragon level factually over 90% of people were using the same skill sets.

I think that this has less to do with the depth of the system, and more to do with the depth of the goals. In D3, almost everyone seems to have the goal of "maximum efficiency" which can be boiled down to a few top builds, and easy gear choices. People who want to feel unique change a few things around.
If PoE players all gravitate towards the same goal, you'll probably see the same thing happening there. However, without a hard currency it should me much harder to measure "wealth", so high-efficiency farming over all else seems harder to justify.

On a side note, after playing a bit of PoE, I noticed something that seems strange to me. I always thought, and even posted several times, that D3's "change anything at any time" system promoted far more experimentation than a "set in stone" system. However, after playing around a little and thinking about the possibilities, I think I was wrong. With D3's system, you can change things around and experiment, and in less than an hour, you know the results. With PoE, if you want to experiment, you have to take the time to build up and gear up a whole new character. The result is something unique and separate form your "baseline" and because of the extra investment, I think would feel more satisfying in the end. Now I'm all confused about what I believe.
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To the OP, here this is for you:
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree

Now plan me out the best build for each class starting now. See you in a year or two.

What's the difference between PoE and D3 in terms of depth? It took one look at the skills and a few hours messing around with them to determine what the best build was in D3. In PoE, its going to take years. All games can be "mathed" that's why math exists, to make sense of complexity. Eventually, every game is going to have cookie cutter extremely efficient builds, D2 had them, but it also had many other viable and fun builds, and it's looking like PoE is going to be the same way.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11835
Posts: 9,033
01/31/2013 10:31 AMPosted by Mysorona
Also D3s depth has every single player looking for exactly the same stats on exactly the same items. And when everyone was racing to 100 paragon level factually over 90% of people were using the same skill sets.

I think that this has less to do with the depth of the system, and more to do with the depth of the goals. In D3, almost everyone seems to have the goal of "maximum efficiency" which can be boiled down to a few top builds, and easy gear choices. People who want to feel unique change a few things around.
If PoE players all gravitate towards the same goal, you'll probably see the same thing happening there. However, without a hard currency it should me much harder to measure "wealth", so high-efficiency farming over all else seems harder to justify.

On a side note, after playing a bit of PoE, I noticed something that seems strange to me. I always thought, and even posted several times, that D3's "change anything at any time" system promoted far more experimentation than a "set in stone" system. However, after playing around a little and thinking about the possibilities, I think I was wrong. With D3's system, you can change things around and experiment, and in less than an hour, you know the results. With PoE, if you want to experiment, you have to take the time to build up and gear up a whole new character. The result is something unique and separate form your "baseline" and because of the extra investment, I think would feel more satisfying in the end. Now I'm all confused about what I believe.


No, it's not more satisfying. In fact, it's very frustrating. For instance, though I spec'd my shadow into daggers, I've been getting some cool claw drops. However, in order to try them out, I'll have to start another shadow. And if I start getting some good sword drops, then I'll have to start even another one. And if I get to end game and decide my build isn't working, guess what? Still another character rolled.

Having upteem characters of the same class may mean commitment to some, but to me it's wasted time and effort.

You have to have a clear idea of where you're going with your character from the beginning, no matter what drops for you or what your experience is as you're leveling. That's incredibly limiting and does not encourage experimentation.
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I think that this has less to do with the depth of the system, and more to do with the depth of the goals. In D3, almost everyone seems to have the goal of "maximum efficiency" which can be boiled down to a few top builds, and easy gear choices. People who want to feel unique change a few things around.
If PoE players all gravitate towards the same goal, you'll probably see the same thing happening there. However, without a hard currency it should me much harder to measure "wealth", so high-efficiency farming over all else seems harder to justify.

On a side note, after playing a bit of PoE, I noticed something that seems strange to me. I always thought, and even posted several times, that D3's "change anything at any time" system promoted far more experimentation than a "set in stone" system. However, after playing around a little and thinking about the possibilities, I think I was wrong. With D3's system, you can change things around and experiment, and in less than an hour, you know the results. With PoE, if you want to experiment, you have to take the time to build up and gear up a whole new character. The result is something unique and separate form your "baseline" and because of the extra investment, I think would feel more satisfying in the end. Now I'm all confused about what I believe.


No, it's not more satisfying. In fact, it's very frustrating. For instance, though I spec'd my shadow into daggers, I've been getting some cool claw drops. However, in order to try them out, I'll have to start another shadow. And if I start getting some good sword drops, then I'll have to start even another one. And if I get to end game and decide my build isn't working, guess what? Still another character rolled.

Having upteem characters of the same class may mean commitment to some, but to me it's wasted time and effort.

You have to have a clear idea of where you're going with your character from the beginning, no matter what drops for you or what your experience is as you're leveling. That's incredibly limiting and does not encourage experimentation.


To add to your point you don't even have to reroll if you needed to adjust your build slightly you could just use those orbs that grant respec points. although for a whole complete new difference a better would be just re-roll entirely but at least you can adjust or farm enough to get 100 of those orbs @ max lvl to respec everything.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/31/2013 1:36 PM PST
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Orbs of regret aside, If you find a really cool claw, trade it for a really cool dagger that your shadow can use. There is a ton of both dagger and claw shadows. and I am sure there are dagger and claw rangers, and maybe even duelists. Hell, there can be a dagger/claw witch or marauder, if someone REALLY wants to go that route... And for pvp, i can see that as an advantage, were someone typically so mellee and tanky like marauder (barb equivalent in PoE) all of a sudden starts raining fire and brimstone on you from afar.
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01/31/2013 01:44 PMPosted by Vladis
Orbs of regret aside, If you find a really cool claw, trade it for a really cool dagger that your shadow can use. There is a ton of both dagger and claw shadows. and I am sure there are dagger and claw rangers, and maybe even duelists. Hell, there can be a dagger/claw witch or marauder, if someone REALLY wants to go that route... And for pvp, i can see that as an advantage, were someone typically so mellee and tanky like marauder (barb equivalent in PoE) all of a sudden starts raining fire and brimstone on you from afar.

i'll be making a dagger witch.
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OP: I'm glad you enjoy D3.

You won't convince me it's a good game, though. What disappointed me wasn't that D3 was bad - just that it was SO mediocre. I haven't played PoE, so can't say if it's good. Whether or not it is, though, D3 was a disappointment.
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Tell me about the choices D3 have to offer.
Tell me about how build are not optimized so there are actually more than 2 viable end-game build.


I still don't know what being "viable end-game" means in Diablo 3. Isn't endgame anything after Hell mode? Or is it now how fast you can run Act III without stopping with some super speed Whirlwind/Tempest rush build? People really suck the fun out of gaming sometimes...

To me, The depth of both of these games are relatively the same. Sure it's fair to say itemization is deeper in PoE, mostly because of how D3 kinda tied in weapon DPS and power way to closely with Skill power. But the massive passive tree is just extra complexity for the sake of it. Once you learn how the tree works, it's really not that deep, just extra complex.

In Diablo 3, I actually like PLAYING the game more than thinking about how to build my character. In PoE, I actually like STARING AT THE PASSIVE TREE more than actually playing the game. Really, it feels like leveling is just a formality so I can get back to staring at that bloated skill tree...
Edited by Connatic#1376 on 1/31/2013 4:51 PM PST
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This is like comparing human beings with dogs...and saying that dogs are less complex and therefore have more depth.
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Tell me about the choices D3 have to offer.
Tell me about how build are not optimized so there are actually more than 2 viable end-game build.


I still don't know what being "viable end-game" means in Diablo 3. Isn't endgame anything after Hell mode? Or is it now how fast you can run Act III without stopping with some super speed Whirlwind/Tempest rush build? People really suck the fun out of gaming sometimes...

To me, The depth of both of these games are relatively the same. Sure it's fair to say itemization is deeper in PoE, mostly because of how D3 kinda tied in weapon DPS and power way to closely with Skill power. But the massive passive tree is just extra complexity for the sake of it. Once you learn how the tree works, it's really not that deep, just extra complex.

In Diablo 3, I actually like PLAYING the game more than thinking about how to build my character. In PoE, I actually like STARING AT THE PASSIVE TREE more than actually playing the game. Really, it feels like leveling is just a formality so I can get back to staring at that bloated skill tree...


Playing Game = puzzle
Building a Character = How to solve the puzzle

It goes back to the odd adage where we used to say - a puzzle is fun (reward) because of the mental challenge of solving it.

But we all know there are people who just wants a reward without having to go thru the whole point of solving a puzzle.

And that's perfectly ok, don't worry.
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


complex games can have depth

don't cry just because you don't understand a game. it's people like you that are the reason blizz made d3 as simple and linear as it is.
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Tell me about the choices D3 have to offer.
Tell me about how build are not optimized so there are actually more than 2 viable end-game build.


I still don't know what being "viable end-game" means in Diablo 3. Isn't endgame anything after Hell mode? Or is it now how fast you can run Act III without stopping with some super speed Whirlwind/Tempest rush build? People really suck the fun out of gaming sometimes...

To me, The depth of both of these games are relatively the same. Sure it's fair to say itemization is deeper in PoE, mostly because of how D3 kinda tied in weapon DPS and power way to closely with Skill power. But the massive passive tree is just extra complexity for the sake of it. Once you learn how the tree works, it's really not that deep, just extra complex.

In Diablo 3, I actually like PLAYING the game more than thinking about how to build my character. In PoE, I actually like STARING AT THE PASSIVE TREE more than actually playing the game. Really, it feels like leveling is just a formality so I can get back to staring at that bloated skill tree...


If you say so. Once you've played a few chars, even to mid level, it stops being confusing, and you're more comparing the distances between very attractive nodes.

The best thing about it for me is the permanence. That +25% crit node I get at level 3 might not seem particularly strong at level 3 when it turns my Sparks from 5% crit to 6.125% crit chance. But they start accumulating, you start getting critical damage nodes, you start inflicting more status effects from crits, you start regaining more flask charges from crits and you can really feel how you've built your character. Same with attack-speed, or shock chance, or mana regen, or life/armor/energy-shield/evasion nodes.

They really scale crazily well when you start stacking them on later, and you feel a sense of pride that YOU made your character the way it is - not some pre-packaged, same-as-every-other character besides gear that may or may not have even been earned legitimately.
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One of the most important design choice to any type of RPG game is player choice.

PoE does this very well, and D3 does this very poorly.

That is all.
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85 Draenei Hunter
7530
Posts: 3,172
You have to have a clear idea of where you're going with your character from the beginning, no matter what drops for you or what your experience is as you're leveling. That's incredibly limiting and does not encourage experimentation.

I think we're talking about two different type of experimentation. My fault, because I had a thought in my head, but never made it clear in my post.

I think you're talking about experimenting as a means to an end. You want to make the very best character, so you try out different things in order to get there. For that, I agree that having everything set in stone is not encouraging.

What I'm actually talking about is someone who wants to experiment just for the sake of experimentation. You want to know, "What would it be like if I did THIS?" Is this easier under D3's system? Yes, of course. But then you're done in an hour or two and you just go back to grind, grind, grind. Under a "set in stone" system, you have to start at the beginning, and work your way there, with speed bumps along the way as you have to work past "soft spots" in the path. Yes it takes a lot more time. But taking up time is what playing games is for, and for me, I'd rather spend my time in an elongated experiment than just grind, grind, grind every day.
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01/31/2013 08:09 PMPosted by babyliyi
This is like comparing human beings with dogs...and saying that dogs are less complex and therefore have more depth.


No, not even close.
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One of the most important design choice to any type of RPG game is player choice.

PoE does this very well, and D3 does this very poorly.

That is all.


D3 gives you choice, you can distribute stats via gear. For example, if I want a build with a high pickup radius, get gear with that affix. It also gives you choice in what skills you choose, and how they work with your gear. A Calamity vs. a Manticore on my DH for example, which should I use? Hrm, a choice... Because you can change your skills, and aren't locked into one build, doesn't mean you don't have 'choice', it means you aren't locked in by that choice and when you find down the road that you're not crazy about it, you choose to change it. My monk doesn't use a WKL, and uses LPSS because I chose to go with a high LPSS and regen build.

So this is just your opinion, and not fact.

That is all.
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D3 gives you choice, you can distribute stats via gear.

that is a very limited and pathetic choice

first of all, leveling is a part of an (A)rpg experience. leveling in D3 is a joke until you reach inferno

second of all, having only one choice is bad. furthermore, there isn't much of a choice once you realize all gear is governed by 3 or so main stats

show me a current endgame weapon which doesnt have main stat, any form of crit damage (including socket) or life leech in d3.

tons of pieces of gear are the same BiS item for tons of classes. like, um, vile ward.

this changed a bit with the legendaries introduced after (like Thing of the deep which does change your gameplay a bit) but most of stats in D3 is garbage. if you get a high dps weapon with no main stats socket life leech or CD=>trash. thats a part of the reason most item drops suck in D3

the lack of meaningful stats make D3s itemization. sure there is SOME choice, but there is just way MORE choice in D2, T2, or PoE. that's also a fact.
Edited by grepman#1848 on 2/1/2013 2:01 PM PST
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02/01/2013 11:50 AMPosted by pixelrage
D3 gives you choice, you can distribute stats via gear.

I hope you're joking. Because the same applies to PoE gear that grants stats as well, but also with a passive tree attached for MORE choices and variety. D3 either way is short of choices vs. PoE. So your statement absolutely nonsense.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/1/2013 9:19 PM PST
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Tell me about the choices D3 have to offer.
Tell me about how build are not optimized so there are actually more than 2 viable end-game build.
Tell me about the depths of D3.

You are just mad, about a game you don't even play and pretend to not care. That's sad.


D3 is *not* a game about "depth" and endless customization options. There are countless games for that purpose, some even from Blizzard themselves. If I want to play a game "with depth" I could pay Skyrim or and any other similar game.

D3 is an action game (not even a "RPG "in that sense, IMO) but in its own league it is excellent. The skills are "easy and simple", while STILL providing a certain level of flexibility for customization, which, IMO is in a good balance for THAT SORT OF GAME.

You keep repeating your "depth depth" argument but seem only to focus on the big skill choices one has in PoE. It is ironic that the the respeccing in PoE is basically "non existent" or extremely limited so that experimentation or respeccing for fun's sake IS NOT EVEN POSSIBLE.

In D3 I can quickly change a few skills and spells and spec out and an entirely different way. If I spent my points in PoE and dont have those orbs for respeccing, you know what my option is?

REROLLING <----

This is your idea of "increased depth", that people need to reroll their characters when they want to try other skills?

In reality this means a PoE player can only have ONE, and only one build! from that point of view I have countless more possibilities in D3 as opposed to PoE where rerolling is the only option :)
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[quote]
You have to have a clear idea of where you're going with your character from the beginning, no matter what drops for you or what your experience is as you're leveling. That's incredibly limiting and does not encourage experimentation.


A profound wisdom. I wish many over at the PoE forum would have it. The funny thing is, while they are actually LIMITING gameplay and fun (with many things, such as no AH, no respeccing etc.) they don't even see that! They are actually *believing* they provide more choices by limiting the game.

the fact alone that respeccing is essentialy not possible, this alone actually wants me not to play the game anymore. Because it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know in advance what to play, what is good, what skills etc....minus the option to even have the ability to try things out. It's just absurd.
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