Diablo® III

Regarding the so-called 'depth' in PoE

Flexy, just stop. You haven't played the game. Any character can use any skills. It's the PASSIVE tree that's permanent. It has a colossal impact on your character, yes, but it has next to no impact on what skills you're using, other than required attributes to equip skill gems.

What you can't do is magically become a completely different character in a few seconds.

What's wrong with rerolling..? I did it tens if not hundreds of times in D2, and never resented the game for encouraging me to do so. Why wouldn't it..? How is playing the game through repeatedly in different way a bad thing..? I'd kill to have a reason to reroll in D3, be it loot, or playstyle differences, or specific builds for specific tasks. There simply is no reason whatsoever to do so.
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Hey guys just a heads up that over at the PoE forums there are 'alot' of threads that the devs are taking seriously.

So make your voice heard about some of the following issues you feel strongly about like:

"we want a different loot system" because the current system is for ninjas.

"we want build respecs" because some players dont want to be locked it to certain builds.

Addressing these issues will make the game more popular to more people and thats what GGG want is for their game to be a success.

So if you feel strongly about these issues head on over and make your voice heard.

Have a great day.
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Different loot system? Meh. I'm not really one for parties outside of friends. Go for your life, won't affect me too much.

Build respecs? Gtfo. Replayability stems greatly from having to try things for yourself, investing time into something that you want to make work.

GGG have said time and again that they're well aware that their game is a niche game for hardcore ARPG fans. I strongly doubt they'd cave in so soon to such an absurd request, one that will heavily damage the longterm viability of their model.
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I realy cant believe there are people who are actually trying to tell others that d3 has more depth and meaningfull choices than poe.

This thread is fllled with retards and liars.

Go back to dual wielding credit cards so u can buy 10 pieces of gear all of which have main stat, vit , AR, crit, crit dmg and enjoy your countless choices and your infinate depth.

Its amazing how people who will NEVER admit that some games are better than d3 will try to justify it by saying things like

02/01/2013 11:50 AMPosted by pixelrage
D3 gives you choice, you can distribute stats via gear.


HHHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAHAH wow dont forget to make that "pick up radius spec" toon....

No, it's not more satisfying. In fact, it's very frustrating. For instance, though I spec'd my shadow into daggers, I've been getting some cool claw drops. However, in order to try them out, I'll have to start another shadow.


Oh WHAT? OMG i can use every weapon that drops for me thats cool and stuff cause i actually have to spec into something? poor me this is so frustrating i just want to spec into all weapons and not have to worry WAHWAHWAAAAHHHH.

And as far as the video ....."CoD has depth" HAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA
Your credibility go shot up abit right there.
CoD is sooooo deep that they need to bring one out every six months because no one has cracked the complexity of that tough nut yet.
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02/01/2013 11:19 PMPosted by Flexyana
the fact alone that respeccing is essentialy not possible, this alone actually wants me not to play the game anymore. Because it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know in advance what to play, what is good, what skills etc....minus the option to even have the ability to try things out. It's just absurd.


Use your brain and you'll know in advance, what's the point in playing any game if you know everything in advance? lol hold-my-hand plz games.
Whole point in playing a game is discovering and learning anyways. Your expectations and perspective of a game reek of a level that's beyond casual.

You want a better argument? You want to try everything blah blah option minus ability to try things out? Why do I have to level to 59 just to use Explosion -> Chain Reaction? Practically end game level pathetic. it's ridiculous if i can respec toe verything anytime i might as well learn it at level 2. Same goes for all the other skills past lvl 10 fk this game d3, weirdass skill unlocking, not even a choice i can make. whine whine whine.

I can't even fking respec my stats in d3 why would i want to gimp my char with 100 stats to dex and str when my char's main stat is int on paragon. jesus i'd rather have 200% more damage on main stat than useless +100 armor and crap next to nothing dodge. fk sakes d3 sucks in stat respec.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/2/2013 3:44 AM PST
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[quote]
You have to have a clear idea of where you're going with your character from the beginning, no matter what drops for you or what your experience is as you're leveling. That's incredibly limiting and does not encourage experimentation.


A profound wisdom. I wish many over at the PoE forum would have it. The funny thing is, while they are actually LIMITING gameplay and fun (with many things, such as no AH, no respeccing etc.) they don't even see that! They are actually *believing* they provide more choices by limiting the game.

the fact alone that respeccing is essentialy not possible, this alone actually wants me not to play the game anymore. Because it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to know in advance what to play, what is good, what skills etc....minus the option to even have the ability to try things out. It's just absurd.


There are many people who want the AH gone from D3, and even more who never wanted it in the first place, and you think its a good idea to put one in PoE? PoE IS NOT D3. If you want to play D3, fine, by all means go ahead, but please leave us one game not altered to suit casual players.
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


LOL!!!

Keep trying...
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Limitations create choices. You will note that the video discusses false choices such as WoW's old talent trees, which aren't really choices. PoE is the same, but on a much larger scale. There will be a mathematically optimal passive build for each class, and possibly one for skills as well.


Just because there is a choice doesn't mean it is interesting. D3's system offers you several flavors you can choose from at any given time and the fact that you can change them whenever you wish negates the impact of even making a choice. The only other facet of your character in D3 is the items he or she is wearing and since every character makes use of the same stats (the only difference being your main stat) there are no interesting item choices to make either.

WoW's original talent trees were awesome. You can call it illusion, a false choice, or whatever you want really, the fact of the matter was you could take your character and then specialize in something to make him/her different from other characters of the same class, a character that played differently than others of the same class. That is the point of the genre, to develop your character and customize it to suit your play style. I am not a Magic player but I have some family/friends that are very into it and if you look up the four types of players they make cards for it will give you an idea of what I am talking about. Even though you might have only had three distinct play styles per class that was still pretty good, and there was still room for customization and experimentation within that.

Flash forward to PoE and really the possibilities are damned near endless. Every level and every passive skill point earned unlocks the theory crafter in my brain. Even halfway through a level I can sit there and stare at what I want to work towards next and plan how to min/max my character. While doing that I will see other nodes that aren't really beneficial to my current build but make me excited to make another character and try out a completely different play style. Then I start thinking to myself what totally insane/impossible build could I do that really should NOT work but that I might possibly be able to pull off. So whenever somebody sees my character and sees what he can do they are like LOL WTF THAT'S AWESOME!

does diablo 3 offer any of that? no. did diablo 2? yes. this is why we are disappoint blizz. There is no wow factor to this game. you made an incredibly grindy game, more grindy than the imported f2p asian mmo's i've tried but you completely removed all customization from it, EVEN the illusion of customization. there is no strategy to d3, there is no thought process that goes into it. was virtually every single one of my 100+ barbs i've played in d2 almost exactly the same as every other whirlwind barb in d2? probably. did it still feel like every single one of those barbs was a total bamf and not just any bamf but my bamf barb? you better believe it did, why else would we have kept coming back for more every time? did i enjoy every crazy !@# build i tried in d2 that shouldn't have worked (and many didn't)? absolutely. i will never forget the time a sorceress came into a pvp game i was in with a 2 handed sword and enchanted it and ran outside, how i laughed to myself thinking wtf is this idiot doing lol i'm gonna go own this noob. only to run out of town and watch her transform into a werebear and take a massive dump on me. my only reaction being LOL WTF WAS THAT!? HOW THE **** DID THAT HAPPEN!?

d3 will never offer this.
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[quote][quote][quote]
There are many people who want the AH gone from D3, and even more who never wanted it in the first place, and you think its a good idea to put one in PoE? PoE IS NOT D3. If you want to play D3, fine, by all means go ahead, but please leave us one game not altered to suit casual players.


There are, indeed, "many people" who want this or that, and those are likely the same people who keep bashing D3 since the very first day since release. 90% of those "wants" and "I dont like X in D3" are entirely idiotic - such as the request that D3 would be improved by taking the AH. Or how bad the fact is "you need to be online" or 1000s of other reasons where any "normal" person just can laugh.

Again...it seems to be hard to comprehend that an AH would be a GOOD ADDITION rather than a halfa$$ "barter system"...in the same way as an AH in a game like WoW (or D3 or whatever other similar game) is a good thing to have.

50% of the fun in D3 is from trading, selling and finding items in the AH. It's an *integral* part of this game. You farm loot, then sell in the AH, make money, get updates, whatever. It's MORE interesting that *just* farming and NOT having this option. Is this so hard to comprehend?

It's also typical (again) that anyone who voices a critical opinion is labeled a "casual player", Now tell me where there is a link between "casual players" and having an AH available which would provide a PROPER means of trading, rather than a silly halfa$$ "bartering" via chat?

However, if you really think this is better, go ahead. Accept all the LIMITATIONS you are imposed on while playing PoE (and there are PLENTY!) - and give yourself entirely to the illusion how this is so much better and call anyone who disagrees a "D3 fanboy" or "casual" ..as so often the case.
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Build respecs? Gtfo. Replayability stems greatly from having to try things for yourself, investing time into something that you want to make work.


When there is a skill-tree with 1050 or so skills and no proper way to respecc, at some point you will be sick and tired of re-rolling and having (!) to do the entire game over again just for the sake to work towards a new skill tree you want to try out.

You call that "replayability"... some others might call this a "mindless drag" and/or insanity,

Given there are over 1000 skills, one would have PLENTY to do to experiment and try around, working towards a good and enhanced tree (eg. in endgame, but also PvP etc.) - PLENTY of opportunity even *IF* respeccing would be entirely free and possible at any time. There are ENOUGH passives for that purpose.

The same with experimenting with their "skill gems", linking and whatnot..which is a MILLION of possible combinations.

Obviously, someone's weird idea behind to disallow respeccing is that all this experimentation would not be possible if respec would be possible - THEIR logic is it us much better to re-level toons over and over again from 1-100 - RATHER than allowing people time to spend exploring skills.
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Obviously, someone's weird idea behind to disallow respeccing is that all this experimentation would not be possible if respec would be possible - THEIR logic is it us much better to re-level toons over and over again from 1-100 - RATHER than allowing people time to spend exploring skills.

They have it on their website where you can explore the tree as much as you like and calculate what's given to you. D3 requires 0 planning its just shoot and miss here and there until you get somewhere.

Sorry but planning is what makes some games accomplish the illusion of progression or simply progression and 0 illusion.

To limitlessly respec at any given point means you just won't think at all and be a dummy. D3 copies a lot from Guild Wars 1 on like a microscopic scale vs. GW1's pool of skills which doesn't work on a SOLO basis vs. 99% of their situations in the game so it requires n^8 times more thinking since you can also set up builds for 7 other heroes apart from yourself,

other than that d3 made stats absolutely pointless other than main stat + vit and 0 weapon proficiency.You should already get a good idea of where you're going regardless even about 10-20 levels in on PoE. If it takes you 100 that's pretty bad. If you switch your mind half way and think no full respec is stupid then I don't think you actually know what RPG really means. Know your role.

Small respec is fine for little errors, but for a whole job change? wtf? Want to knwo why Dark Souls is good and they have 0 respec?

Also about this
50% of the fun in D3 is from trading, selling and finding items in the AH. It's an *integral* part of this game. You farm loot, then sell in the AH, make money, get updates, whatever. It's MORE interesting that *just* farming and NOT having this option. Is this so hard to comprehend?

It's also typical (again) that anyone who voices a critical opinion is labeled a "casual player", Now tell me where there is a link between "casual players" and having an AH available which would provide a PROPER means of trading, rather than a silly halfa$$ "bartering" via chat?


D3 has no "trading" , it's all anonymous, as far as you know you're dealing with a bunch of automated bots roaming on that thing. Lmao. Or Blizzard generating items and filling it in with good stat-rolled items, they do have the source code, and it wouldn't be hard, and it's all anonymous so you can't exactly say they don't do that because it'd be stupid in a business sense not to. Natalya Set 3 discipline/sec anyone? Fksake broken set effect.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/3/2013 1:35 AM PST
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Obviously, someone's weird idea behind to disallow respeccing is that all this experimentation would not be possible if respec would be possible - THEIR logic is it us much better to re-level toons over and over again from 1-100 - RATHER than allowing people time to spend exploring skills.


Chris Wilson (the leader producer and designer - you can at least acknowledge where the "weird idea" came from) has talked about some of the reasoning behind their decision to allow full respeccing - they believe in the idea that creating a character is a journey, and being able to quickly and dramatically change that character in a game where builds are a strong part of what defines a character diminishes that journey.

Now - and this just might blow your mind - that decision and that design in gaming is EVERY bit as valid as allowing flexibility of builds in a system where classes have distinct identities at the start, like in Diablo 3. Both are systems that are meant to interest different audiences.

I really don't get where this idea that only one way is the right way.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
12290
Posts: 9,916
02/02/2013 03:24 AMPosted by Warzone129
Oh WHAT? OMG i can use every weapon that drops for me thats cool and stuff cause i actually have to spec into something? poor me this is so frustrating i just want to spec into all weapons and not have to worry WAHWAHWAAAAHHHH.


Now, you know I didn't say that. There's nothing nowhere in my post that states that I want to be spec'd into all weapons all the time.

Stop making stuff up.
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02/04/2013 02:24 PMPosted by Ryaskybird
Oh WHAT? OMG i can use every weapon that drops for me thats cool and stuff cause i actually have to spec into something? poor me this is so frustrating i just want to spec into all weapons and not have to worry WAHWAHWAAAAHHHH.


Now, you know I didn't say that. There's nothing nowhere in my post that states that I want to be spec'd into all weapons all the time.

Stop making stuff up.


You implied it. It was your next logical step in your position against permanence in character builds.
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you can do a full respec in poe, it will just cost you 5 exalted's

if u think u will find that much by releveling, try again, would rather just retry a new build on a new char and keep the old one

fun game to me very many choices and you can use as many skills as u want technically you can use about 24 skills if u really wanted to

main hand + shield or 2 hand = 6
armor = 6
helm = 4
boots = 4
glove = 4
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Again...it seems to be hard to comprehend that an AH would be a GOOD ADDITION rather than a halfa$$ "barter system"...in the same way as an AH in a game like WoW (or D3 or whatever other similar game) is a good thing to have.

50% of the fun in D3 is from trading, selling and finding items in the AH. It's an *integral* part of this game. You farm loot, then sell in the AH, make money, get updates, whatever. It's MORE interesting that *just* farming and NOT having this option. Is this so hard to comprehend?


There's an appeal found in trading the old-fashioned "market place" way - you may not find it appealing, nor will others, but yet there are clearly still enough out there that prefer that type. I really don't expect you to understand that it's a valid play-style though, given your posting history.

It's also not a system that works without a unified currency, and since PoE doesn't have that they would have to reduce it down to one - or add gold - which would utterly destroy the barter economy that is already in place and already working, and is based around every item that drops having an value to its existence beyond just being a form of currency.

That said, the system could use some more convenience, and GGG is working on allowing a way of trading via the website (so you can do so without having to spam in-game, or even enter the game) and via public stashes that others can view - a sort of shopping window if you will. Think of it as sort of like Ebay as we know it, but instead of using dollars and cents people are trading chickens and glass beads after a bit of negotiating.

Half of what you describe as being half the fun in D3 is part of the act of trading - and trading is not an activity that relies on an AH to exist.
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all complexity / no depth you say...

PoE Ranger: can use any weapon, and specialise in any skill set based on those weapons.
The passive skill tree allows you to alter how your character levels to allow you to adjust the playstyle of your character as to how you want to play it ...
how the character plays is a mixture of planning, experimentation, rng, gearing, skill selection and skill training.

D3 Demon hunter... can use bow... or crossbow... automatically gains dex... must use only the spells in the class skills list that unlock at specific levels...
character plays dependant on gearing and which skill slot is active.

there is a difference to streamlining complexity and outright putting the game on rails ...
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100 Night Elf Hunter
12290
Posts: 9,916


Now, you know I didn't say that. There's nothing nowhere in my post that states that I want to be spec'd into all weapons all the time.

Stop making stuff up.


You implied it. It was your next logical step in your position against permanence in character builds.


No, I did not. I didn't say nor implied that. Nor is it the next "logical" step. What I said is that I want to be able to change my spec without farming for hours upon hours upon hours for randomly dropping orbs.

Other games accomplish this either through having the players pay an exorbitant in-game fee or do a fiendishly difficult questline (or both). However, in PoE, it is more cost effective timewise to restart a character due to the RNG nature of the orbs.

I understand why GGG did this. Not only are players used to it from D2, but also GGG relies upon its microtransaction shop for income. Having to restart a character each time we want to experience something new will certainly increase playing time--which, in turn, will increase the chance that we will buy something from the cash shop. Which is cool; GGG needs to pay its bills and maybe even make a profit. My problem, again, is that it is artificially restricting and limiting.

Besides, it doesn't make sense. My shadowy rogue could make a weapon out of a broken bottle, a couple of nails and a length of wood. Why in the world, then, would he be unable to transition from daggers to claws?
Edited by Bird#1227 on 2/5/2013 11:30 AM PST
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No, I did not. I didn't say nor implied that. Nor is it the next "logical" step. What I said is that I want to be able to change my spec without farming for hours upon hours upon hours for randomly dropping orbs.

Other games accomplish this either through having the players pay an exorbitant in-game fee or do a fiendishly difficult questline (or both). However, in PoE, it is more cost effective timewise to restart a character due to the RNG nature of the orbs.


You don't have to rely on the RNG nature of orbs, though.

By Act 3, you can trade with one of the NPCs for almost every orb that drops (except, I think, things like Regal, Exalted, Blessed, and maybe one other).

The trade goes from Alteration, to Jeweler's, to Fusing, to Chance, to Scouring, to Regret...and then on to Alchemy. It will be absolutely possible to obtain enough without relying on them dropping that you can make significant changes to a character.

Now looking at the Dagger vs Claws? There's a few hubs of those (some near the Shadow start, some near the Ranger start), and those aren't far from each other. Should you decide you want to switch, it would take around 15-20 at most to switch from one to the other (less for the ones near the ranger, which are right next to each other). Certainly not the "Oh I want to make my character a claw based fighter today" flexibility, but still very doable with a bit of time invested.

And honestly, by the time those extra stats from the weapon specific nodes become truly important to a build, you're likely at the higher levels, where obtaining the orbs you want is easier and faster (of course, you have to juggle the need to respec versus the desire or need to work on upgrading gear at that point).

That said, the general wisdom I've seen around is that you don't want to spec into weapon specific nodes unless you intend on building a character around those weapons. It's your choice on when you want to restrict yourself to performing better with a given weapon type, and especially early on it's very unlikely you will hamper yourself by not locking your character into a weapon type right away.

Still, you can choose to do that, or not do it.
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