Diablo® III

Regarding the so-called 'depth' in PoE

Well said Berethos.
I am running a build that uses Glacial Hammer and Ground Slam. A hammer is required for Glacial Hammer and I knew this going into the build. Even so, I tend to choose melee damage nodes rather than weapon specific nodes as it offer flexibility within the build should I decide to change it up a bit at a later time. He is a two hand weapon user so I have some of those nodes for damage, an example of a meaningful choice within a flexible system.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
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The trade goes from Alteration, to Jeweler's, to Fusing, to Chance, to Scouring, to Regret...and then on to Alchemy. It will be absolutely possible to obtain enough without relying on them dropping that you can make significant changes to a character.


You're right, I don't have to farm Orbs of Regret. I can purchase them from vendors. According to PoE's wiki, it takes 64 Orbs of Alteration to eventually purchase one Orb of Regret. That means that for a level 40 character, for instance, I would need approximately 2,600 alt orbs to respec.

But I don't have to farm those either. I can also purchase them. Each Orb of Alteration costs four Orbs of Augmentation, so I would need 10,400 augmentation orbs.

I can purchase an Orb of Augmentation orb with four Orbs of Transmutation, so that means I would need 41,600 transmute orbs.

An Orb of Transmutation costs seven portal scrolls, so I would need 291,200 scrolls.

A portal scroll costs three scrolls of wisdom. So I would need 873,600 wisdom scrolls.

I can get wisdom scrolls by selling white/normal items, which do drop like confetti. One normal item = one scrap and it takes five scraps to make a scroll. So I would need to vendor 4,368,000 normal items.

Of course, I might get lucky with the Orbs of Regret drops (so far I have three) so I won't have to purchase as many of those other orbs and whatnot. Still, I somehow think it really may be better just to start that level 40 character over :P

02/05/2013 03:44 PMPosted by Berethos
That said, the general wisdom I've seen around is that you don't want to spec into weapon specific nodes unless you intend on building a character around those weapons. It's your choice on when you want to restrict yourself to performing better with a given weapon type, and especially early on it's very unlikely you will hamper yourself by not locking your character into a weapon type right away.


Looking at my characters, I don't see how you can avoid making skill choices. For instance, if my shadow were using swords, I would grab all the duel-wielding agility I could get. However, with most daggers and claws I need intel also.

I wanted my templar to be staff-wielding caster. So that means that instead of chosing strength for the normal sword and board build, I went elemental damage and intel.

On my maurader I chose an agility/duel-wielding build. But now I'm wondering if I should've gone strength/two-hander as I've been getting some great two-hander sword drops.

Even with my ranger, which seems to be a very straightforward class, I've had to chose right off the bat between projectile and melee damage. Same with my maurader, though that was a little more subtle with the choice being a tanky vs. a dps build.

In fact, the only class where I hadn't had to make an immediate decision on what kind of weapon(s) I would use is my witch.

Anyway, I've been for the most part enjoying PoE. I just wish we weren't locked into character choices so early in the game.
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Of course, I might get lucky with the Orbs of Regret drops (so far I have three) so I won't have to purchase as many of those other orbs and whatnot. Still, I somehow think it really may be better just to start that level 40 character over :P


Which is completely intended, at least at that level. In one of the interviews (I really recommend listening to all of them if you can and haven't already - there's a refreshing amount of transparency in them from Chris, the Lead Designer and Producer) they pretty much state as much. Up to a certain point it's better to reroll, after a certain amount of time you'd be able to earn enough wealth to make the changes.

With the orbs and such though, I was using the above method to pick-up a couple Alchemy Orbs, since those are the next step in the process...took me about an hour and a half between magic/rare drops and the occasional Jeweler's orb to skip a step at level 40...I'd call anyone farming Wisdom scrolls to progress upward insane, ha.

It's also worth nothing that (if I recall correctly) the Alchemy ones can be sold straight to a vendor for an Orb of Regret as well, and there are a couple ways to get Alchemy Shards from vendoring rares that you don't need and/or don't have good stats - believe two of the same base name type (such as two Elegant Foils, for example) will net you some shards, with 20 needed for the full stack.

Looking at my characters, I don't see how you can avoid making skill choices.


Say you wanted a Ranger, but you weren't sure if you wanted a melee or bow user.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgIBm42v6wHRCC4Zju2D2OsJEP660341kk7I7g4j9u_wWkhW-vzFZ6CHdt0NkL6w0tGpeOvcgucKOrM1hp2quc1KfQ==

32 points used without investing in a single weapon specific node - you'd definitely want some more life, and some evasion (can increase that to greater effectiveness and/or pick up Iron Reflexes later for a more tanky build), and definitely attack speed, movement speed is nice to have and very useful later, some dexterity, and a bit of strength (or int) depending on what skill gems you want to use.

None of the starting positions really lock you in, and you can go quite a while picking useful passive nodes before committing one way or the other. 30 or so points and you probably know what play-style you really want for that character, and have had a chance to sample some different weapons type...even, for the Ranger, trying the difference between melee and ranged.

However, you do have to decide if you're going to let what drops define how you play. When I create a character and start working on it, I do have a general idea of what direction I want to go in. If some really nice swords start dropping for my bow focused Ranger (and they did, actually, during CB), then I consider those either good trade items with other players or I start having ideas for a new character. If I don't plan on making that type for a while, or no one is buying what I'm selling, I can also use it to get orbs to upgrade weapons and other items that do have a use for my build.

I definitely understand the desire to try out the different weapons and such that cross your path, especially when some are really sexy items (a good unique is particularly tempting), but I personally don't let drops define that character. Character might become a bit schizophrenic if you try.
Edited by Berethos#1965 on 2/6/2013 1:27 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Hunter
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Posts: 10,424
Say you wanted a Ranger, but you weren't sure if you wanted a melee or bow user.http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgIBm42v6wHRCC4Zju2D2OsJEP660341kk7I7g4j9u_wWkhW-vzFZ6CHdt0NkL6w0tGpeOvcgucKOrM1hp2quc1KfQ==32 points used without investing in a single weapon specific node - you'd definitely want some more life, and some evasion (can increase that to greater effectiveness and/or pick up Iron Reflexes later for a more tanky build), and definitely attack speed, movement speed is nice to have and very useful later, some dexterity, and a bit of strength (or int) depending on what skill gems you want to use.


Setting aside waiting until level 32 to spec into weapon skills, as I said before, the ranger is pretty straightforward. You have the choice of agility or agility, and if you you don't like that, there's agility. So whatever direction you go, your core attributes won't change.

That's not the case for my caster Templar. There's strength or intel, and no amount of selective skill placement will change the fact that from the beginning I'm locked into a certain kind of play style.

The same with my duelist; strength or agility.

The same with my shadow; agility or intel (and if you're going intel, might as well pick up some elemental damage as well).

In any event, I'm not about to gimp my characters by speccing into weapon skills so late. That ranger build you linked has rock solid survivability, but she would hit mobs like a wet noodle.

02/06/2013 01:26 AMPosted by Berethos
It's also worth nothing that (if I recall correctly) the Alchemy ones can be sold straight to a vendor for an Orb of Regret as well, and there are a couple ways to get Alchemy Shards from vendoring rares that you don't need and/or don't have good stats - believe two of the same base name type (such as two Elegant Foils, for example) will net you some shards, with 20 needed for the full stack.


Vendoring rares is a crap shoot. Sometimes I get Alteration shards; sometimes Transmutation shards, sometimes even a Chromatic Orb. Very, very rarely have I gotten an Alchemy shard. Again, it's just easier to start over.

02/06/2013 01:26 AMPosted by Berethos
However, you do have to decide if you're going to let what drops define how you play. When I create a character and start working on it, I do have a general idea of what direction I want to go in. If some really nice swords start dropping for my bow focused Ranger (and they did, actually, during CB), then I consider those either good trade items with other players or I start having ideas for a new character. If I don't plan on making that type for a while, or no one is buying what I'm selling, I can also use it to get orbs to upgrade weapons and other items that do have a use for my build.


This is what I mean by having your character set in stone the minute it's created. That is frustrating to me, especially when I'm starting a new game and have yet to experience it firsthand. Also, the treasure hunt is a large part of my enjoyment in games like this. If some particularly toothsome treasure drops and I have to level another character because the spec of my current character is all wrong, that kills the fun for me.

Again, I'm not asking for D3's fluid swapability (is that a word?). That would mean a radical redesign of PoE. I just want a little more flexibility to accommodate experimentation and the game's inherent RNG.
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Setting aside waiting until level 32 to spec into weapon skills, as I said before, the ranger is pretty straightforward. You have the choice of agility or agility, and if you you don't like that, there's agility. So whatever direction you go, your core attributes won't change.

That's not the case for my caster Templar. There's strength or intel, and no amount of selective skill placement will change the fact that from the beginning I'm locked into a certain kind of play style.

The same with my duelist; strength or agility.

The same with my shadow; agility or intel (and if you're going intel, might as well pick up some elemental damage as well).

In any event, I'm not about to gimp my characters by speccing into weapon skills so late. That ranger build you linked has rock solid survivability, but she would hit mobs like a wet noodle.


Are you really, truly locked if you at first go strength and then intel for a Templar, or agility and then intel for a Shadow? Not so much - those initial core attributes (and much of the use behind strength, intelligence, and dexterity in much of the game) is for being able to equip certain types of gear or certain gems...and especially for the "hybrid" classes (Templar, Shadow, and Duelist...notice how they are the ones that don't have a clear attribute choice right away?) you typically need both stats.

Going for the Templar? Good chance you're going to use armor or weapons that require some strength to use, even if you're going the caster route. Popular Shadow weapons include daggers, bows, and claws (even for spell-casting based Shadows), and you'll need the Dex for those as well.

Ultimately, the difficulty of the early game and the overall effect of passives at the level when you still might be exploring options isn't such that you are immediately gimping yourself. The tree is deliberately designed so that it's very tough to truly mess up a build from the get go, or even a dozen points.

Considering that most builds reach their intended design, based on a combination of gear, gem skills, and passives/keystone choices, sometime between level 40 and 60, and you will have over 120 skill points possible, a half dozen to pick up some base stats for an item or gem, or to skirt around to some other desired options, won't kill the build. You truthfully don't have to min/max to make a build that works, even for end-game maps...it just has to be a cohesive build. Wearing armor, having no energy shield, and picking up zero HP passives, for example, would not fit that description.

As for the Ranger build, I'm probably going to be trying it like that myself, to see just how well it handles the first difficulty tier. From my experience with a Ranger before, attack speed and movement speed did more for me than bonuses to actual damage and so I am confident it can handle normal difficulty just fine, but I did pick up projectile damage bonuses early on the last time I played Ranger (only took it to level 30 in the beta). I'm thinking that weapon damage, other gear, and skill gem choices for the first 30 levels have a greater effect than passives, and so such a build wouldn't be gimped much in the damage area, but I'd like to really confirm that before commenting further.


Vendoring rares is a crap shoot. Sometimes I get Alteration shards; sometimes Transmutation shards, sometimes even a Chromatic Orb. Very, very rarely have I gotten an Alchemy shard. Again, it's just easier to start over.


It's actually not. The reason you sometimes get a Chromatic Orb? The item had a red, blue, and green socket, and it was at least a 3-link item. Want some resist rings? Trade a gem and an iron ring to a vendor (blue for CR, green for LR, and red for FR) and you get a white level resist ring back that can be upgraded. Low on scrolls of wisdom? Pick up and sell some white level items (though the scrolls seem to drop in excess the higher you go in level).

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Vendor_Recipes

Every item you pick up will sell to a vendor and produce specific items. It seems haphazard until you learn what trades for what. Nearly every item in the game has a deliberate and measured reason for its existence. Specific combinations or specific properties on items will produce Alchemy Shards - the crapshoot is in having the particular items drop, but given the genre that's pretty much par for the course.

Remember the Horadric Cube from D2? Selling items to NPCs is a lot like that.
Edited by Berethos#1965 on 2/8/2013 4:06 AM PST
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Rangers an awesome char -- I went bows -- I found that pierce and blind worked great with split arrow. Mows groups of monsters down in 1 to 2 hits. Only on cruel right now, early act 1, but served me well so far.

Trying a more crit oriented build, wanna see how that works. I can think of a lot of good gem combos that would really make that build shine.
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Edited by Icon0clast#1542 on 2/8/2013 7:29 PM PST
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http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity

Watch and learn. PoE has complex systems that offer little depth. D3's systems offer greater depth and keep complexity to a minimum. It is very important to distinguish the two.


Watch and learn.

Look at all the youtube build's of the week for PoE.

Even though Diablo offers a new system that promotes a simplistic depth for entertainment, a less is more model. PoE systems offer greater depth and keep complexity interesting. That's if a person wants to put some effort in and spend time distinguishing the two.
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02/02/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Flexyana
50% of the fun in D3 is from trading, selling and finding items in the AH. It's an *integral* part of this game. You farm loot, then sell in the AH, make money, get updates, whatever. It's MORE interesting that *just* farming and NOT having this option. Is this so hard to comprehend?


So you would rather play the AH than play the game? Because that's what will happen if you add an AH to PoE, just like in D3. Also there are other implications, such as re-balancing the game. I don't think you understand that if you make all gear available to everyone at the click of a button, you trivialize the difficulty of gearing your character, and the content you are facing.

Then there are people who would get rich playing the market, and people who would bot and drive prices up. What im trying to say is that while it might be convenient for you at the moment, it would not be good for the game in the long run.
Edited by Mephasm#1905 on 2/19/2013 12:11 PM PST
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!@#$ing finally.
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