Diablo® III

Wizard skills - The Great Overhaul

If any class is due for an overhaul, it's WD.
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Reducing the power of CM, will still not make me want to use the rest of the passives are practically useless.
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01/31/2013 08:28 AMPosted by danitefox
If any class is due for an overhaul, it's WD.


WD already got an overhaul.
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Paralysis: works with all lightning skills.
Teleport: no cooldown. Can teleport through walls and obstacles. Removes debuffs.


FIX TELEPORT

wiz was a let-down for this reason alone
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Bump
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doubling the range of all channel spells to offscreen so that it becomes a real range skill rather than a melee skill if you want to keep it in the spirit of range wizard would also another way to go about it
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Post the math underlying your suggested changes otherwise its just empty words and senseless numbers. I bet you did not even calculate *anything*, that stuff is not for kids.
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02/01/2013 03:31 AMPosted by Shuun
Post the math underlying your suggested changes otherwise its just empty words and senseless numbers. I bet you did not even calculate *anything*, that stuff is not for kids.


Do you mean how the cooldown stuff works with Prodigy? Or the damage?

If you mean the cooldown, then yeah you're effectively doing a bit better than halving cooldowns. 2 casts in x cooldown is better than 1 cast in x/2 cooldown. How well you will survive depends on too many variables to actually "calculate", but survivability would gain a very substantial upgrade. By substantial I mean like doubled. As that seems to be the primary concern with ranged Wizards, I don't see what else I need to provide to justify the changes. Sure, numbers can slide up or down a bit depending on actual testing (PTR?), but the idea should be solid.

As for damage skills and the %s I gave, I did pull them out of my !@#, though I would argue that it's well-informed $%^-pulling. For example, Arcane Orb suggestions are based on full readings of all the Arcane Orb threads in both the Wizard and the PTR subforums, as well as personal experience with the skill and comparisons with similar skills from Wizard (Meteor-Star Pact) and other classes.

And for Power Hungry it's simply smoothing out the AP gain so that you get a steady diet of AP rather than spiking full AP then depleted the next second.

For Galvanizing Ward I simply mixed in a scaled factor while keeping the constant for low leveled characters.

Does that satisfy? Or are you asking for something more specific?
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02/01/2013 03:31 AMPosted by Shuun
Post the math underlying your suggested changes otherwise its just empty words and senseless numbers. I bet you did not even calculate *anything*, that stuff is not for kids.


There is something to the layman's perspective though isn't there? Not all of us are programmers, but we can tell when something works or doesn't work.

I think enough of the Wiz players would agree and have been clamoring for some retooling of the passives and skills.
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There is something to the layman's perspective though isn't there? Not all of us are programmers, but we can tell when something works or doesn't work.


You still dont pull anything out of !@#. Like seriously. How do you know it does not work, if you dont even know *how* it is supposed to work?

I would like you guys to be more... i dont know... basic. Like dont dwell into numbers, but try to explain what you tried (specific build), what items and stats did you use for build, link to the build that did not work, but you think that it should and then lets talk about what could be the reason why it does not work like you expect, and be clear of what you really expect from it. No one is going to make changes that break the game, just because you like that build, that would just break all class balance and make everyone want to go wizard, with that exact build.

So please, keep on posting in manner as i suggest and lets see how it goes!
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I like and agree with most of your ideas, necro, but i think this person said it best:

I understand the OP's rules, but the problems completely revolve around CM being overpowered.

The evocation passive could reduce cooldowns by 75% and it would still be the inferior choice. Buffing all options to be as powerful as CM (in the late game) is simply unrealistic.


That said, some very interesting ideas going; i particularly like your version of Mirror Images. Not sure about giving Archon a life steal rune, wouldn't everyone just flock to it and nothing else? I felt they did a good job of making the Archon runes an interesting choice through recent changes.

As far as Paralysis goes, you will need to reduce the coefficient of Living Lightning (from 10% to maybe 5-8%) or alternatively double or even tripple the coefficients on Electrocute and other Shock Pulse runes before anything other than LL will trigger Paralysis in any kind of reliable way (at which point you can buff Paralysis to be more viable). I have concluded this through both mathematical analysis and in-game testing. Wicked Wind offers a similar problem to the other Energy Twister runes with Critical Mass in place of Paralysis.

Oh and to be more specific, CM/WW problems are mostly at end-game gear levels (higher than expected crit chance + attack speed scaling with extra ticks per second), and you really only need to reduce the ceiling to balance it. I would personally love to see it re-worked to function equally at all gear levels but that might be asking a bit much.

PS. Before we all flame Shuun, consider that the developers might have a very similar perspective :) That said, i think "pulling data out of ones behind" is simply a metaphor for intuitive critical thinking and is a valid source of feedback.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 2/1/2013 4:02 PM PST
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I like and agree with most of your ideas, necro, but i think this person said it best:

I understand the OP's rules, but the problems completely revolve around CM being overpowered.

The evocation passive could reduce cooldowns by 75% and it would still be the inferior choice. Buffing all options to be as powerful as CM (in the late game) is simply unrealistic.


That said, some very interesting ideas going; i particularly like your version of Mirror Images. Not sure about giving Archon a life steal rune, wouldn't everyone just flock to it and nothing else? I felt they did a good job of making the Archon runes an interesting choice through recent changes.

As far as Paralysis goes, you will need to reduce the coefficient of Living Lightning (from 10% to maybe 5-8%) or alternatively double or even tripple the coefficients on Electrocute and other Shock Pulse runes before anything other than LL will trigger Paralysis in any kind of reliable way (at which point you can buff Paralysis to be more viable). I have concluded this through both mathematical analysis and in-game testing. Wicked Wind offers a similar problem to the other Energy Twister runes with Critical Mass in place of Paralysis.

Oh and to be more specific, CM/WW problems are mostly at end-game gear levels (higher than expected crit chance + attack speed scaling with extra ticks per second), and you really only need to reduce the ceiling to balance it. I would personally love to see it re-worked to function equally at all gear levels but that might be asking a bit much.

PS. Before we all flame Shuun, consider that the developers might have a very similar perspective :) That said, i think "pulling data out of ones behind" is simply a metaphor for intuitive critical thinking and is a valid source of feedback.


The problem with destroying CM is that top-level Wizards will all have to rebuild. I'm not sure if it's in Blizzard's best interest to do so, but if they wish to do so, it does make an overhaul SO much easier. My original post is under the assumption that CM will not be touched, as that creates the more complex problem (but a solution that could potentially satisfy everyone). Of course we would first have to go through the "CM is still better" phase, but I think making it so that there are multiple builds viable in higher MP is at least a start and a good one.

The Life Steal rune forfeits either the 25% or Teleport. Life Steal on weapon is still extremely valuable, but does not become the live-or-die factor if you wish to go this route. But for the most efficient low MP farming, Life Steal weapon + Teleport rune is still the way to go. (And with the 10% cap with the new Reflect, this may just become a luxury option for the undergeared)

I will admit that I have not spent the time to run numbers on Paralysis. I put those numbers there as more of a symbolic note that it does need changing (hence the number 42. Sad nobody got the reference =(... ). So I yield on all arguments relating to Paralysis. If you have a specific solution (with corresponding numbers) in mind, please tell me and I will put them up at the front with a big thank you note beside it =)

And I'm not on the "flame Shuun" train. He does bring up valid points, and I want to comply as much as possible, but the bulk of it do require more testing (like all things in D3, since there's always someone smarter than you who can one-up whatever build you're thinking of). Which brings me back to the point of "[this]... is at least a start and a good one".
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Shock Pulse - only rune worth using is the long ranged one that pierces. Change the other runes so their is little to no collision and a slightly longer range. Fire bolt should actually look like fire, not red electricity - make it like shoot 3 fire bolts straight but when you use it the 3 bolts are randomized (so every shot is different when it comes to where the bolts go).
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I would like you guys to be more... i dont know... basic. Like dont dwell into numbers, but try to explain what you tried (specific build), what items and stats did you use for build, link to the build that did not work, but you think that it should and then lets talk about what could be the reason why it does not work like you expect, and be clear of what you really expect from it. No one is going to make changes that break the game, just because you like that build, that would just break all class balance and make everyone want to go wizard, with that exact build.

So please, keep on posting in manner as i suggest and lets see how it goes!


The problem with this recommendation is that these suggestions change the dynamics of the Wizard game. Old builds will not be optimal at all. You will have to make new builds to take full advantage of the revamped skills.

Example:
Blizzard - Snowbound
Teleport - Calamity
Wave of Force - Force Affinity
Magic Weapon - Force Weapon
Familiar - Sparkflint
Energy Armor - Prismatic

Power Hungry
Prodigy
Glass Cannon

This is a build that is completely unexplainable in 1.06-1.07. But becomes very interesting with the suggested changes. Double Teleport - Calamity then Wave of Force = 730% damage in 3 casting turns. Then you can Blizzard to finish things off, and still have a Wave of Force open (not to mention the cooldown reset in 6 seconds).

Number crunching with old builds would not be constructive at all.
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They need to make Arcane Regen faster. Mabey reduce casting cost on top of that. Im happy with my damage. Its plenty. I would rather be able to attack more with the damage that i got then attack less with more damage.
Just my 2 cents worth.


Have a look at the suggested changes for Power Hungry. +6AP/sec is more than anything we can get from equipment right now. And note that the buff lasts 30 seconds, so it's not something that is only momentary.
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02/01/2013 06:30 PMPosted by DeMasked
Shock Pulse - only rune worth using is the long ranged one that pierces. Change the other runes so their is little to no collision and a slightly longer range. Fire bolt should actually look like fire, not red electricity - make it like shoot 3 fire bolts straight but when you use it the 3 bolts are randomized (so every shot is different when it comes to where the bolts go).


They're already buffing it substantially in 1.07. Until we see the full results reflected in new builds, I don't think it's wise to suggest further changes.
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Bump
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Bump
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02/01/2013 06:20 PMPosted by necropuddi
The problem with destroying CM is that top-level Wizards will all have to rebuild. I'm not sure if it's in Blizzard's best interest to do so, but if they wish to do so, it does make an overhaul SO much easier. My original post is under the assumption that CM will not be touched, as that creates the more complex problem (but a solution that could potentially satisfy everyone).


Fair enough... but i'm going to disagree that a CM nerf would break Wizards completely. I have experimented a lot within the CM framework with mid to high end gear and believe it or not you can actually survive without even several of the usually considered "mandatory" skills in a CM build. If anything, the balance usually feels pretty good when i'm trying new variations, with the main exception being we just don't quite have the damage outside of Explosive Blast / Meteor spam and Shocking Aspect abuse. However, i feel the damage problem could easily be fixed with simple number tweaking - the kind of thing they're doing with Blizzard / Arcane Orb right now. The only reason it isn't working right now is because the ceiling of CM is too high and simple damage buffs will never catch up.

I really, really wish they go with the overhaul idea because i think it will be the least amount of work overall, and i want to see the finished result as soon as possible, but for people playing every day i can understand they might prefer a more gradual change... shrug.

02/01/2013 06:20 PMPosted by necropuddi
I will admit that I have not spent the time to run numbers on Paralysis. I put those numbers there as more of a symbolic note that it does need changing (hence the number 42. Sad nobody got the reference =(... ). So I yield on all arguments relating to Paralysis. If you have a specific solution (with corresponding numbers) in mind, please tell me and I will put them up at the front with a big thank you note beside it =)


Lol i can't believe i didn't notice that. I even wondered how you got to that number but the answer simply didn't occur to me!

Anyway in terms of specific solution for Paralysis... i think i would start with simply halving the coefficient on Living Lightning (from 0.1 to 0.05) and bring Paralysis up to 15% (just under double), see how that plays out.
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