Diablo® III

Quickening/WoL-Empowered vs Cookie Cutter PTR

So after being very vocal and supportive of the changes in 1.07 (most specifically Quickening + WoL-Empowered Wave) many asked for hard #s or testing specifics. I really don't get why others can't test for themselves as it really isn't hard AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ~2.00+ aps and ~50% crit chance.

Here are stats used:
weapons
MH Echoing Fury (950 dps with 100% emerald)
OH Sledge Fist (150 dps :) with 45% emerald)
other
90k total dps
41.5% crit chance
2.85/3.20 attacks per second
1 spirit per second (exalted soul)

*the gear on my profile is different than what I tested on PTR such as the EF is lower DPS and lifesteal on PTR (I like to test stuff :P )

Here are the results:

Azmodan MP 5

I used Exalted Soul as a Passive for both builds. I find the +100 spirit globe and 1 spirit per second as great burst for WoL but NOT necessary.

FoT-Thunderclap
Breathe of Heaven +15%
Nearly 100% up-time of Mantra of Conviction +24%

Time in seconds (3 runs):
45
42
44


FoT-Quickening
WoL-Empowered Wave (instead of Breathe of Heaven so an automatic -15% dps)
Nearly 100% up-time of Mantra of Conviction +24% while between the 3-4 seconds spamming WoL (usually 3-5 Bells)

Time in seconds (3 runs):
33
32
33


As you can see there is a noticeably difference between the two. I'm telling everyone... at least go try it with ~2.00 aps and ~50 crit chance - you WILL notice your farming/boss runs go much faster. Now will you like it better? Who knows... that's your choice. It can be a little tricky keeping Mantra up while Spamming Bells. But from my experience even if you get lazy and don't spam Mantra of Conviction, you will STILL notice faster farming runs.

Probably an even faster "standard farming" build would be Deadly Reach-Strike from Beyond instead of FoT-Quickening. While you will spew a few less Cyclones because of the slower attack speed, you will spew even MORE bells. In high mob density I was noticing easily x2 more bells. With DR, Exalted Soul might be necessary (or a really good idea) as you can probably get over 150 spirit in a second or two from DR hitting 8-10+ mobs (10 mobs = ~50 spirit x 3.0 aps + 6 = 156 spirit).

Personally, the build I've been playing with in MP 8/9 on PTR is FoT-Quickeing with DR-Foresight along with Combination Strike as ideal. However, those "godly geared" would probably farm MP 10 faster with Deadly Reach-Strike from Beyond. Again, obviously single-target farming would be better with FoT-Quickening.

Yay, 1.07! Yeah it sucks we lose the snapshot trick but at least Sweeping Wind got a light buff AND we have more than viable spirit spenders in WoL and LTK.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 6:40 PM PST
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*something else to consider when deciding between "cookie cutter" and WoL for "standard farming" (not bosses/ubers) --->

You will lose the 35% AoE from Thunderclap and extra Cyclone procs from high mob density. However you will gain a nice hit-box from WoL AND a 45% line-aoe - if you pratice, you can get hit A LOT of mobs.

Again, from my farm testing in MP 8/9 it was minutes faster using the new WoL-Empowered Wave so I would assume by that fact and the above testing that the WoL damage MORE THAN makes up for the loss of 35% AoE and some Cyclones.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 6:49 PM PST
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Thanks for the feedback, I can't wait to test it out on the regular servers when the patch goes live.

Sounds like the WoL will be amazing against single targets (bosses and Ubers) and maybe elite packs...only problem with the WoL (bells) will be the spirit regen...I'm so used to spamming Overawe in co op when doing high MP ubers/keys that it's gonna be a hard habit to break:)
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see, the problem with your testing method, is it's on a boss, bro.

when ur fighting mobs in standard runs, dropping 1 bell will knock them right out of your attack radius, it's not like you can keep dropping bells because the targets won't stand in one place.
And you can't teleport with quickening either.

With the standard setup with TC, you can just blink to mobs and keep generating a lot of cyclones that deal faster damage, whereas with dropping bells, the bell has to crit to be good.

So tell me this, how can dropping 1 bell a second (when you have spirit) that has three opportunities to crit on landing,
be better than having 10+ cyclones on screen that each lasts 3 seconds, each zapping like crazy, and continuously critting?

Not to mention with Quickening, your LoH sustain would be gimped, and LS return gimped too because not enough cyclones to leech.

Azmodan is a fatty that doesn't move much, so it's easy to use him like a punching bag to test these. But in regular fights, this doesn't apply, because -> monsters get knocked back. :]
Edited by CountFury#1192 on 1/30/2013 7:25 PM PST
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So tell me this, how can dropping 1 bell a second (when you have spirit) that has three opportunities to crit on landing,
be better than having 10+ cyclones on screen that each lasts 3 seconds, each zapping like crazy, and continuously critting?

Not to mention with Quickening, your LoH sustain would be gimped, and LS return gimped too because not enough cyclones to leech.


You realize I'm still using Sweeping Wind-Cyclone with WoL, right? ;) ... ~2.00+ aps & ~50% crit chance will spawn a TON of Cyclones with just Quickening or DR.

The only way you would be losing 10+ Cyclones is if you are surrounded by a good amount of mobs and even then you should be able to just about 1-shot them with Primary and a WoL Bell.

*remember every 3rd hit by FoT and the range of DR AoEs procs cyclones. So, for example comparing Thunderclap to Quickening, you are only losing the "35% proc" from 2 of the 3 hits.

So... like I said in the 2nd post... the massive amount of WoL dps gains seems to easily surpass the loss in a few cyclones and 35% from Thunderclap.

when ur fighting mobs in standard runs, dropping 1 bell will knock them right out of your attack radius, it's not like you can keep dropping bells because the targets won't stand in one place.
And you can't teleport with quickening either.

With the standard setup with TC, you can just blink to mobs and keep generating a lot of cyclones that deal faster damage, whereas with dropping bells, the bell has to crit to be good.


This is a fair and good point. But seriously the knockback isn't that bad. You can easily spam 2-3 bells and hit the same target while it's being slightly moved.

I can do MP 8/9 with 900 LoH and 3.00 aps with FoT-Quickening. I'm sure there might be some lower MP builds that would miss the extra proc from Thunderclap. But if your build/gear supports aps/cc for WoL-Empowered, this still seems ideal.

*AND, you usually will be dropping many more than 1 bell per second depending on mob positioning. With Quickening, I can usually do 2-3 and add 1-2 more if with Strike from Beyond and mob density. It depends on how consistent you are with spamming Overawe. If you do keep Overawe's 3-second buff up then it's a little harder to drop as many bells.

Don't knock it if you don't try it ;) !
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 8:00 PM PST
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Here is why you believe it is better:

You're offhand weapon is terrible.

If you don't understand why that is so important to the two builds you are using, I really don't know what to say.
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Here is why you believe it is better:

You're offhand weapon is terrible.

If you don't understand why that is so important to the two builds you are using, I really don't know what to say.


Yeah elaboration is constructive. Last time I checked everything was based on Main-hand so where's the difference? How is Thunderclap (the variable) better than Quickening with a better off-hand??

And for the record, I have NOT been using Sledge Fist when farming MP 8/9 on PTR where I initially noticed the substantial difference in farming time.

I can gladly go test it without a Slege Fist. I only used it to lock the boss down. But I don't see how a better off-hand is going to make the "cookie cutter" (thunderclap) better... both builds should do the exact same primary/cyclone damage unless I'm missing some super secret about thunderclap and an off-hand.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 8:15 PM PST
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@ blhotz

I'll back you on this. I've been using a build similar to yours for a while.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#adhYSe!XUW!YbcccY
Even did a uber MP 10 run with Jco and Nasty. Think I died...once all three bosses. It's a viable build, just need higher attack speed to pull it off.
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Currently trying a new twist to that build
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WahYSe!gXU!bacccY
higher damage helps in some situations :P
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Currently trying a new twist to that build
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WahYSe!gXU!bacccY
higher damage helps in some situations :P


Crippling Wave is interesting - I like the better AoE and debuff. I tried CW-Rising Tide but not near to the extent of FoT-Quickening and DR-Strike from Beyond. Maybe CW-Rising Tide does give more spirit than DR-Strike from Beyond in high mob density? Feel free to share results!

Remember, FoT will give you a few more Cyclones. Also personally, I do like the Foresight/Combination Sight damage bonus but that could also work with CW.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 8:18 PM PST
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Actually when surrounded it seems like I get way more cyclones with CW-Rising. could be just me, but it seems like substantially more. When the groups are small I change to FoT and don't spam bells (non elites).
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01/30/2013 08:28 PMPosted by Wannabee808
Actually when surrounded it seems like I get way more cyclones with CW-Rising. could be just me, but it seems like substantially more. When the groups are small I change to FoT and don't spam bells (non elites).


Wow, I totally forgot about CW hitting all mobs in front on the first and second strikes.

Yeah, it's possible CW will give more cyclones. Thanks for heads-up!
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See, if you're trying to say dropping bells is better than the snapshot standard build in 1.0.6 live,
that would be wrong because ppl with high crit damage and high attack speed could buff to very high damage, for example atm I can buff to around 400k dps with FiTL.

With the nerf to snapshot in 1.0.7, that won't be the case anymore,
so people are just gonna replace FiTL (or blazing wrath) with Empowered Wave. There's no Need for quickening, because TC allows you to teleport to the mob that you knockback with the bell, to cast another bell.
And Empowered Wave only costs 40 spirit, which is only 6-7 punches to get back the spirit.
Now if you count Overawe spamming on top of that, it'll take around 10-12 punches to repeat the combo, which doesn't take more than 3 seconds of Overawe's duration.

Quickening is pointless in that build because after you knock them back,
you have to walk to them, lol...
so what, bell -> walk -> bell -> walk -> punchpunchpunch -> bells -> walk?? lol.

monsters aren't gonna standstill to eat the bells like Azmodan, bro.
the time it takes for you to walk from monster to monster to monster,
cancels out the heavy damage that it deals.

-------------------------

And in the lower MPs where you're killing mobs with 1 bell,
it means you should be able kill as fast with the standard cookie cutter,
without having to worry about spirit in the first place, nor walking to between mobs.

If you're gonna use quickening, might as well use Wall of Light instead for the higher damage. And when you use Wall of Light + Quickening, might as well do it with a Skorn instead for damage lol, rather than dualwielding and trying to hoard attack speed, and for what, without the snapshot of FitL?

Not to mention Sledgefist is pseudo-attackspeed dps,
cuz it's so weak that you're be gimping yourself in the first place.

This is a cool build, don't get me wrong.
but saying it's better than the cookie cutter, is comin' on too strong. ;D
Edited by CountFury#1192 on 1/30/2013 8:57 PM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
View profile
I love hearing that you are farming MP8/9 with bells! That is my current end-game plan so it's nice to hear that someone is already having success with it!

The reason that Fitz mentioned your boss-kill speed test may be a bit on the bias side is that WoL uses only mainhand damage while FoT, SW and Cyclones all use whatever the "active" weapon are.

That means that 50% of the time your SW, Cyclone and FoT are all hitting for virtually 0 damage while Bells are at 100% effectiveness.

Just a heads up.

I honestly think this build can work.

You can actually abuse that "mainhand only" thing even farther by getting a stat-stick offhand and putting a ruby in your mainhand but an emerald in your offhand! :D

-Druin, the happy monk
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I love hearing that you are farming MP8/9 with bells! That is my current end-game plan so it's nice to hear that someone is already having success with it!

The reason that Fitz mentioned your boss-kill speed test may be a bit on the bias side is that WoL uses only mainhand damage while FoT, SW and Cyclones all use whatever the "active" weapon are.

That means that 50% of the time your SW, Cyclone and FoT are all hitting for virtually 0 damage while Bells are at 100% effectiveness.

Just a heads up.

I honestly think this build can work.

You can actually abuse that "mainhand only" thing even farther by getting a stat-stick offhand and putting a ruby in your mainhand but an emerald in your offhand! :D

-Druin, the happy monk


Thanks Druin!

But the variable is the same. 50% of the time those things (FoT/Cyclone/SW) are hitting for very little in BOTH builds so I still don't see how it's different. It's single-target so the 35% AoE will not matter. You ARE NOT spawning more Cyclones with Thunderclap vs. Quickening. If you use a better off-hand the dps of FoT/Cyclone/SW will go up IN BOTH BUILDS equally... what am I missing?

But yes, you can abuse the main-hand of WoL however you want! I tried using a lower dps (950 OS) life-steal echoing fury. I would assume there will be a bigger difference (in favor of WoL) with a much higher Main-Hand.

Quickening is pointless in that build because after you knock them back,
you have to walk to them, lol...
so what, bell -> walk -> bell -> walk -> punchpunchpunch -> bells -> walk?? lol.

monsters aren't gonna standstill to eat the bells like Azmodan, bro.
the time it takes for you to walk from monster to monster to monster,
cancels out the heavy damage that it deals.


Not really... Cakewalk? No. But like I said numerous times, it's not hard at all to hit the same mob you "knockback" with multiple bells in 1-2 seconds. Also you will get better with more practice.

While I agree, FoT-Thunderclap + WoL-Empowered Wave could still be practical. I was not lying when I said Quickening/Strike from Beyond gives you many, many more bells. They do. Try it.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 9:21 PM PST
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WoL-Empowered Wave (instead of Breathe of Heaven so an automatic -15% dps)


Lets imagine this.

FoT/Thunderclap + SW Cyclone:

50% of the time SW is doing next to nothing because of your OH. Lets add a 15% dmg buff to nothing. Alright. So 50% of the time the 15% is helping your SW damage.

FoT/Quickening + WoL:

50% of the time your SW sucks even more than before, however now instead of buffing minimal damage during that period you are using a skill slot for an ability that does +809% (or whatever it is) MH weapon damage.
Edited by Cayzer#6828 on 1/30/2013 9:24 PM PST
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01/30/2013 09:21 PMPosted by Cayzer
WoL-Empowered Wave (instead of Breathe of Heaven so an automatic -15% dps)


Lets imagine this.

FoT/Thunderclap + SW Cyclone:

50% of the time SW is doing next to nothing because of your OH. Lets add a 15% dmg buff to nothing. Alright. So 50% of the time the 15% is helping your SW damage.

FoT/Quickening + WoL:

50% of the time your SW sucks even more than before, however now instead of buffing minimal damage during that period you are using a skill slot for an ability that does +809% (or whatever it is) MH weapon damage.


Are you talking about Sledge Fist? The +15% (the ONLY different affected variable between the two builds) of the difference between a 150 dps and 1k dps weapon of half of your attacks would make very little difference... maybe a second or two?

Sledge Fist was doing the same damage in BOTH builds (FoT/Sweeping Wind/Cyclones) but yes the +15% would benefit Thunderclap very slightly more.

The two builds I tested come down to procs and +35% primary-target/aoe. WoL more than makes up for the slightly fewer Cyclones and +35% (and 15% BoH).

However as someone mentioned above, it seems practical you could still go Thunderclap/WoL-Empowered Wave. However, I'll be testing CW/DR/FoT spirit generating builds more thoroughly for farming. They're showing me personally much more potential in the testing I've done in the past week.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 9:44 PM PST
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here you go, the "new" cookie cutter, lol.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aekYgS!UbX!abacYc

Either FiTL or Blazing Wrath, personal preference. :>
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SW damage and cyclone damage is affected by your "Active weapon" when DWing.

While Sledge fist is your active weapon your SW is doing very little damage. (This is on PTR where they have fixed snapshot of course) as SW damage is calculated off your active weapon not your MH.

50% of the time your SW drops significantly which makes the 15% buff a gimped ability 50% of the time, while WoL is working 100% of the time off your MH.
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SW damage and cyclone damage is affected by your "Active weapon" when DWing.

While Sledge fist is your active weapon your SW is doing very little damage. (This is on PTR where they have fixed snapshot of course) as SW damage is calculated off your active weapon not your MH.

50% of the time your SW drops significantly which makes the 15% buff a gimped ability 50% of the time, while WoL is working 100% of the time off your MH.


Yes, Man. Think I said that three posts above? But, again, 15% of a 150dps vs. 1kdps weapon on HALF of your attacks is really not that much. Not enough that I thought to clarify the fact... maybe a second or two?

To be completely factual the Sledge Fist was doing a good amount of damage :P ... remember you still add in crit chance/damage/etc. The only difference is the base damage before modifiers. And for those just joining the thread. I used the Sledge Fist for BOTH builds, *sigh!!
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 9:51 PM PST
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