Diablo® III

Quickening/WoL-Empowered vs Cookie Cutter PTR

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SW damage. All damage caused by SW and cyclones is reduced during the time that your OH is active. Every tick of SW and every cyclone is less while sledge is active.

Not just each hit of your weapon.
Edited by Cayzer#6828 on 1/30/2013 9:50 PM PST
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Are you talking about Sledge Fist? The +15% (the ONLY different affected variable between the two builds) of the difference between a 150 dps and 1k dps weapon of half of your attacks would make very little difference... maybe a second or two?

Sledge Fist was doing the same damage in BOTH builds (FoT/Sweeping Wind/Cyclones) but yes the +15% would benefit Thunderclap very slightly more.

The two builds I tested come down to procs and +35% primary-target/aoe. WoL more than makes up for the slightly fewer Cyclones and +35% (and 15% BoH). However as someone mentioned above, it seems practical you could still go Thunderclap/WoL-Empowered Wave. However, I'll be testing CW/DR/FoT spirit generating builds more thoroughly for farming. They're showing me personally much more potential in the testing I've done in the past week.

You don't seem to understand the game mechanics behind the #'s your tests yielded. They're INCREDIBLY skewed in WoL's favor, I would wager.

WoL afaik ONLY uses your mainhand weapon.

While I'm not sure how SW handles damage related to both weapons on the PTR and going forward, I do know that currently (in 1.0.6) the snapshot is based on your active weapon if you're dual wielding. With that in mind, its not much of a stretch to think their solution for this included some form of averaging the average damage of both weapons, which in your case means INCREDIBLY low #'s since you're using Sledgefist.
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Are you talking about Sledge Fist? The +15% (the ONLY different affected variable between the two builds) of the difference between a 150 dps and 1k dps weapon of half of your attacks would make very little difference... maybe a second or two?

Sledge Fist was doing the same damage in BOTH builds (FoT/Sweeping Wind/Cyclones) but yes the +15% would benefit Thunderclap very slightly more.

The two builds I tested come down to procs and +35% primary-target/aoe. WoL more than makes up for the slightly fewer Cyclones and +35% (and 15% BoH). However as someone mentioned above, it seems practical you could still go Thunderclap/WoL-Empowered Wave. However, I'll be testing CW/DR/FoT spirit generating builds more thoroughly for farming. They're showing me personally much more potential in the testing I've done in the past week.

You don't seem to understand the game mechanics behind the #'s your tests yielded. They're INCREDIBLY skewed in WoL's favor, I would wager.

WoL afaik ONLY uses your mainhand weapon.

While I'm not sure how SW handles damage related to both weapons on the PTR and going forward, I do know that currently (in 1.0.6) the snapshot is based on your active weapon if you're dual wielding. With that in mind, its not much of a stretch to think their solution for this included some form of averaging the average damage of both weapons, which in your case means INCREDIBLY low #'s since you're using Sledgefist.


What don't you guys get? The Sledge Fist was doing equal damage in BOTH builds (excluding the BoH).

There is no fudging of the #s. If I replace the Sledge Fist then BOTH builds increase in DPS the SAME (again, excluding BoH) - I'm not using different attacks for Thunderclap
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 9:54 PM PST
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Let me transfer new stuff over to PTR and I'll test without Sledge Fist if you some of you don't understand how it's the same (comparatively... which is the entire point of the thread).

Also, can test Thunderclap-Overawe vs. Thunderclap-Overawe-WoL vs. Quickening-Overawe-WoL on a single-target.

Quickening-WoL should be the fastest but it'll be interesting to see how close Thunderclap-WoL is especially being as a "standard farming" build you get the extra procs and 35% primary-aoe.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 1/30/2013 10:01 PM PST
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forget about all the numbers discussion..

just tried it personally. standard cookie cutter vs wol/quicking vs wol/thunderclap vs CW/CS vs all other combination.

bottonline.

this patch is a bloody nerf. how you look at it. you can console ureslf saying oh wol burst dmg 800% but i can tell you the play style really sucks.. it SUCKS.. S U C......K...SSSSSSS compared to 1.0.6 even thou i didnt snap short on purpose. but it feels clunky. buttons alot of action. looking nice casting alot of bells down looking like alot of flare with no substance. but END OF THE DAY 1.0.6 > wadever rubbish D3 dev are forcing us to use.

dont understand why monks get screwed over and over and over again.

this is no longer funny. its really insulting the d3 community player base's intelliigence.
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^so true about 1.0.7 /sigh
there is such short foresight from the devs imo. A fix for the short term, but a problem in the long run.

aside: also who is reporting countfury? sure some people dont like him, but he actually does know a lot about this game's mechanics and synergies.
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Ran a few MP10 Ghoms to test this and I came up around 85 seconds. That's 8 - 10 seconds longer for a kill then the Combo strike/foresight with thunderclap tests I posted earlier in another thread.

Although, when the mobs allowed <meaning they weren't around me in a circle like some elite packs I ran into, or knocked out of the way of the second bell drop>, Clearing the keep's went seemingly faster this way.

Though, some elite packs seemed harder, <quillbacks/fast runners> without the teleport from thunderclap. I found myself belling nothing alot of the time in those situations.

Also, I've never had a problem killing a goblin on mp10 and I failed to kill it with the bells, trying to hit something running away while dropping bells on nothing and not having the spirit to do anything else kind of sucked.

tl;dr

Large packs in narrow spaces = awesome.
Bosses/runners/circling elite packs <like with firechains> sucky.

IMO: Viable, but not for my personal tastes/build/play style.

Edit: I'd like to try this build while dual wielding if someone on the Ptr has a 1200+ Ef with Cd and OS I could use.
Edited by Narcolepsy#1563 on 1/31/2013 5:59 AM PST
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The offhand issue doesn't really make any difference to the comparison, because it's the same offhand in both scenarios. If you switched the Sledge Fist to something else, then the cookie cutter build would increase its dps, but so would the WoL build. It would be important if the OP was trying to achieve the highest possible dps, but he's not. He's looking at the _relative_ difference between two builds, one with WoL and one without.

What might make a difference is if the comparison used Blinding Flash/FitL instead of BoH/BW on the cookie cutter side. I think it was shown that FitL still gives higher dps if your attack speed is high enough. Don't know if it would be sufficient to catch up to WoL though.

Also, the knockback issue is overblown IMO. I was using a WoL build with a two-hander for months and never had any problems with it -- in fact, it was useful for things like interrupting those giant cows in Act 1 and in the Caverns of Frost. Sure the mobs get knocked back, but it's only for a few yards and then they come right back at you. If you can deal with chasing EF-feared mobs around, this should be a piece of cake. That's assuming the extra damage from the new WoL doesn't just mince them up, that is.
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question guys:
Would the bell be viable with cyclone strike to gather the mobs before dropping the bell?

Sure I would waste a skill for this from my bar, and some spirit, but the dps of the cyclone is not to be ignored, and also there are items with -spirit cost to cyclone strike...

Anyone tried this or thought of this?
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I've been using different bell builds for a long time now, with two handed Skorn or Warmonger. Can farm mp7+ with it. I prefer "pillar of ancients rune" myself as it doesn't knock the mobs very far. Had responded to threads about 2hander bell builds but no one really seemed to care back then about it lol. This patch made me a bit happy since I love using bells but it didn't really address other pressing monk issues.

Been testing it with a lot of different assortments of gear ie. 2+ spirit regen inna's helm and soj. I found once you get past 7+ spirit regen it's great with guardians path. Add quickening to this mix then its a lot of spirit I tell you. Works for me but I prefer not to use quickening though.
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question guys:
Would the bell be viable with cyclone strike to gather the mobs before dropping the bell?

Sure I would waste a skill for this from my bar, and some spirit, but the dps of the cyclone is not to be ignored, and also there are items with -spirit cost to cyclone strike...

Anyone tried this or thought of this?


I've tried it using 2 hander, it's a good idea in theory but in reality, too much spirit drain and effort. Even tried it with -5 cyclone strike helm + soj etc...just use pillar and thunderclap lol. Didn't test this in ptr though, but like my post I've been playing bell builds for a very long time and when I do tests they are on high mp8+
Edited by Pekson#6284 on 1/31/2013 6:58 AM PST
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ok, thanks Pekson, I will however test this... being thinking on it for some time.
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Dassem it is fun to do however and makes you feel like you are doing something cool.. I did that with loads of spirit regen as well but for higher mp levels it just doesn't make the cut due to spirit issues. If blizz reduced spirit costs this patch that would probably make it awesome!
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What don't you guys get? The Sledge Fist was doing equal damage in BOTH builds (excluding the BoH).

There is no fudging of the #s. If I replace the Sledge Fist then BOTH builds increase in DPS the SAME (again, excluding BoH) - I'm not using different attacks for Thunderclap

/facepalm

What people are saying is that your tests are skewed toward WoL being better.

This is because when you are using the cookie cutter build, a large portion of your damage is coming from Sweeping Winds and Cyclone. But when your sledgefist is active, your damage from SW and Cyclone is very low.

However, when you use Quickening/WoL, much less of your overall damage is coming from SW/Cyclone. This means that when your sledgefist is active, your overall damage is affected less.

So, to recap:

FoT/TC - lots of your damage is coming from SW/Cyclone. Therefore, when SW/Cyclone's damage goes down, your overall damage goes down a lot.

FoT/Quickening - much less damage is coming from SW/Cyclone because a lot of it is coming from WoL. Therefore, when SW/Cyclone's damage goes down, your overall damage does not go down as much.
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I really suggest that for "real world" (aka not fighting the block of tofu that is azmodan) people try Deadly reach withe +10 spirit on crit and a cold SoJ.

Slightly less single target DPS but way better performance overall.

Also if you use WoL and don't use dashing strike: quicksilver to maintain positioning you are doing it wrong.

You don't need serenity in a WoL build if you have dashing strike. I'm not sure whether I want to use FitL for mega burst or BoH for perma 15% though.
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What don't you guys get? The Sledge Fist was doing equal damage in BOTH builds (excluding the BoH).

There is no fudging of the #s. If I replace the Sledge Fist then BOTH builds increase in DPS the SAME (again, excluding BoH) - I'm not using different attacks for Thunderclap

/facepalm

What people are saying is that your tests are skewed toward WoL being better.

This is because when you are using the cookie cutter build, a large portion of your damage is coming from Sweeping Winds and Cyclone. But when your sledgefist is active, your damage from SW and Cyclone is very low.

However, when you use Quickening/WoL, much less of your overall damage is coming from SW/Cyclone. This means that when your sledgefist is active, your overall damage is affected less.

So, to recap:

FoT/TC - lots of your damage is coming from SW/Cyclone. Therefore, when SW/Cyclone's damage goes down, your overall damage goes down a lot.

FoT/Quickening - much less damage is coming from SW/Cyclone because a lot of it is coming from WoL. Therefore, when SW/Cyclone's damage goes down, your overall damage does not go down as much.


Exactly.
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I'm not sure why so many people think Q/WoL isn't going to be competitive. If you had enough spirit regen to fuel it like a primary, it would obviously outperform TC/Cyclone by a very, very wide margin. Play style difficulties aside, I believe it will be viable when the patch goes live, based on some back-of-the-napkin calculations and a previous comparison of Empowered Wave and Wall of Light.
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