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Ive asked this question once before, but circumstances have changed so here we go again.
Some friends and I are preparing to run a 3man group with act3 mp0 in mind. The group consists of me wd, a barb and a monk. We are curious as to what ehp you guys think each member should have, as well as what group dps to shoot for. (Individual dps is fine too.)
The builds we'll be running too the best of my knowledge is as follows:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#bcXYki!Zbc!aZZZcY - Barb
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#a.Sjgk!XUT!a..cba - Monk
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#YWQXRU!XeT!bbbYaa - WD
If you have build suggestions that you believe would better support the team feel free. All advice is welcome. The question of ehp is the most important right now though. I feel like Im fine at 400k ehp. I have no idea however were the melee characters would need to be to feel comfortable.
Thanks in advance =)
P.S. I know the monk build is incomplete. I havent talked as much with him about his build as the barb and I personally know the least of monks compared to the other classes. I am fairly confident however that he will be using the skills Ive listed at least.
Easy rule of thumb scales like this (buffed with passives only):
WD: 400k with spirit vessel
Monk: 800k without dodge factored in
Barb: 1.2 mil (Barb with that build is the tank of the group, need to reel the monsters in and stay in the fray long enough for the team to nuke them. Can't be kiting around.)
Higher or lower depending on skill but try not to get too much lower. Monsters will have more HP and there are times where the team isn't totally coordinated, so it's better to have more ehp.
Barb: 25k to 30k Ground Stomp: Wrenching Smash with Rend is good.
Easy scaling, haha. Let's see what others think. But those numbers are good minimums to shoot for.
Edited by MrDeAtH#1112 on 2/4/2013 6:23 PM PST
Well I dont really think its much of a good idea to farm somewhere at bare minimums lol. Not until were good and coordinated. But we dont really have to faceroll it either.. cant really learn anything that way.
So if you have other numbers to suggest go for it.
Yeah my monk is probably close to the minimum end for Act3. He's at 895k EHP and 28k unbuffed.
I've probably spent about 10 hours farming act3 and there's definitely some stuff I just have to run from. I definitely feel a bit squishy, often close to needing serenity of a potion. Haven't proc'd NDE though.
In a group it should be a bit safer though right?
Dang dude, if that's true than I've been doing it wrong.
This is my first paragon HC char and I've been farming for a little bit now and i'm just below 30k dps.. though I know I need to increase it I'm certainly not doing terrible. If I cant farm act3 mp0 i don't know what on earth i should be farming. a1-a2 mp0 are too easy and drops are garbo.
40k is comfortable. I started at 25k and haven't had dps issues.
Definitely agree on 400k EHP though. Never procced spirit vessel but there's been some Oh $#%# moments
Edited by odie#1791 on 2/4/2013 5:15 PM PST
Easy rule of thumb scales like this (buffed with passives only):
I would suggest similar values. Not sure why a barb needs 400k more than a monk though (please educate me).
This is would be a 'standard' monk build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aXSjgk!XUT!abccba
Depending on your team DPS I would consider swapping Ground Stomp for Sprint - Forced March (or maybe Battle Rage - Marauder / Frenzy - Maniac to feed the rend, if the sustain is a little low)
As for DPS: a 'good' starting DPS for a3mp0 is ~30k (more is always better).
You are a good bunch of guys and I think you should do fine, GLHF! :)
I play with Monks a lot, so I really only have advice for that...
Even 700 EHP is OK, but the more of it that comes from mitigation (as opposed to life) the better. Make sure he has significant LoH, too.
Don't use Mystic Ally. With the Witch Doctor, I don't think one more body on your side adds that much. I'd probably take BoH with the fear rune. The Witch Doctor's dogs are going to pull enemies you weren't ready for, and a Heal+Escape button will come in handy. I also don't like relying on Earth Ally's Life bonus. The things that take you down to 10% of your life tend to kill your ally, too.
Mainly, the Monk's job is to spam Overawe. Do that even without punching anything and your party is already ahead. So focus on staying alive with his gear. Even 20K DPS is fine. Less can be OK.
Since you're already spamming Overawe, I usually prefer Transcendence to NDE. Even resolve helps the whole group. I know some HC Monks refuse to play without NDE, though.
Finally, if the Monk's DPS is low, consider Crippling Wave as his main attack. If he's not a big source of direct DPS, he might as well be de-buffing everything and helping the group stay alive.
That's my Monkly wisdom, anyway. Good luck.
Before you read this, please know that I currently main a WD and have over 600 hours into the class. I used to main a Monk and have about 400 hours on that class. When the paragon system came out I was the #1 HC World Monk for 3 days until I got bored with the class. I have about 100 hours on barb, but I have done lots of barb theorycrafting with friends. In addition to my main account profile (this one) please see my alt account's profile (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Diomedes-1388/) and my Asia account profile (http://kr.battle.net/d3/ko/profile/Diomedes-1380/).
TL;DR - I know what I'm talking about.
The barb build:
Cleave/Rupture is good at lower levels when he's likely to kill things, but not at higher levels when in reality you're going to be doing 80% of the death blows. I recommend he change to Cleave/Fury Generation.
Rend: I have never liked Blood Lust, whenever I use it I feel like it's broken or something and I never get back as much life as I think I should. I prefer lacerate or the +range rune. This is a pretty gear dependent recommendation, but the barb should have enough LL/LS on gear that this rune is not necessary.
Leap/Launch is not as good as Leap/Iron Impact, even post-nerf. Ideally he's going to be using leap a little more offensively than he thinks he will be. He is going to want to leap into the middle of stuff, Ground Stomp, and Rend while you come in for the kill with Bears or Acid.
IP/Mob Rule should be replaced with Bezerker. Your Barb as is has no way to break Freeze, and having the universal Barb "oh @#$!" button will make him a more confident tank and you a more effective group as a whole. IP/Mob Rule looks good on paper because you think, "Hey I'm helping my party" but really, let the monk do that. He's better at it. The IP/Mob Rule lasts for like 2 seconds and it's not worth it.
Passives: I don't like IP on this build because he's not using Battle Cry and the effectiveness of the IP passive will not be maximized. I REALLY don't like Ruthless because it makes no sense and does not flow with the rest of the build. Your barb looks like he's going to be more tank than face-stomp and he should use Superstition so that he doesn't get his face handed to him, and consequently get you killed.
The Monk Build:
I notice the monk has no right-click set. Good! That means there's plenty of room for Dashing Strike, because that's exactly where it should be. It doesn't look like a big deal, but Dashing Strike is a Monk's go-to defense against most CC and its spammability makes it very, very powerful. It helps you keep Sweeping Wind up because it gets you to your target faster, and It will definitely come in handy when Serenity is on Cool Down, I'm telling you that right now.
Against the norm, I don't like FoT/Thunderclap. It is one of the few Monk primary skills that don't add much of a bonus. Sure the teleport is nifty when you're chasing goblins in softcore, but in this dedicated party his role is to get punched in the face (or the shield), and try to reduce the pain when other people get punched in the face. Depending on his spec he may want to try Deadly Reach/Keen Eye or Crippling Wave/Concussion. Both are more defensive, but since it sounds like you guys are building on a budget that may be what he needs to stay alive. Crippling Wave is incredibly underrated. The base skill tooltip gives your enemies like -25% dmg and -25% move speed with every 3rd hit, which is so underrated its silly. Top that with the Concussion rune (or Resolve passive) and... wow. You should also consider that Cripping Wave hits in more of an arc than FoT, and will be useful with my next reccomendation....
Take out Earth Ally, put in Cyclone Strike. I main a WD and when a monk uses Cyclone Strike it makes farming go ridiculously fast. Like... RIDICULOUSLY fast. I find that monk, add him to friends list, and will run every game I possibly can with him until one of us dies. It is foolish how easy it becomes when the two of you learn to anticipate each other's moves. When he learns how effective you are as a wd, using Cyclone Strike will change everything for your party. That, combined with The Rendarian above (ground stomp is on cooldown for like 80% of the time) and you 3 will crush A3Mp0
Many monks fight me on this. I dislike the allies because I see them as unnecessary in group play. Sure they can add 10% life and they hold off one elite while you're soloing the other 2, but that becomes unnecessary with solid group play, especially with your extra tanks as a WD.
The monk doesn't have a sweeping wind rune chosen yet. Go with Blade Storm > Cyclone until he gets up around 30% crit. Sure, the cyclone looks pretty, but Blade Storm gets the job done better when those tornadoes aren't floating everywhere.
Monk (Continued): I love Serentiy/Tranquility in party play, it is exceptionally effective and will help a lot. It helps to have a rule with your friends so they know not to blow their cc-breaking skill too early. When I run with my friends they always know that "the first freeze is on me." This way they don't waste their Spirit Walk/Zerker at the same time as the monk using Tranq.
Zombie Dogs on leftclick? I see you're a lefty....
Either way, Dogs should be on the bar. You will rarely be casting dogs, maybe 5x a game at most. You will get more utility out of putting something else at your fingertips. Something you'll be using all the time... like Acid or Bears.
I never really liked BBVD. Its good against bosses I guess, but even then its a 20 second window of "yee haw" followed by "oh snap I really miss that buff, now what do I do?" If you're using BBVD as a lifesaving skill for your party, then your party has more problems than can be solved in 20 seconds. I can appreciate the use of Grave Injustice to lower the CD of BBVD, but like the Barb, your passives don't jive with your build. Acid is a ranged skill, while Grave Injustice is to be used with a up close and personal build (cough BEARS cough). I recommend swapping BBVD for Soul Harvest. I personally like the damage rune, but I don't play with Acid. Many Acid players I know who use Soul Harvest prefer the extended time rune so they don't' need to put themselves in the middle of the fray every 30 seconds, and they do it every 60 seconds instead.
There are people who swear by it, but I don't like Horrify. Especially with this party dynamic whose entire role is to put things into neat piles for you to instakill. I think Horrify is intended for recent SC converts who want to play their WD like a Wizard and are scared of everything. You are much better off doing more damage. Swap it out for Garg/Stinker or even Grasp/Rain of Corpses. Both would be more effective for your party.
****Arggghhh I want to go in so many directions with my recommendations to you, but the only reason for that is that you have gone is so many directions with your skill selection.****
Basically, choose one. Acid or Bears. Bears is better for your party because it deals more damage and it's not like you're playing in some pub game where you're unsure of their skills. They are going to put themselves at risk by using vaccum-style skills to bring everything together for your killing pleasure. The least you can do is oblige them, so go Bears.
kasjdflkjsadflkjasdfldsoufasdflasdjflsdajflsdjfoiasdjf but you shouldn't go bears because youre using Toads/RoT, which is a DoT and doesn't get much love from the LS you'll need with bears. Okay, you're going Acid. The rest of this post is written with the idea that you are going for Acid. If you want some Bears recommendations, lmk here and I'll update.
Swap Grave Injustice for.... well anything would be more effective than this really. Toads, Acid, Dogs, and even the Horrify (which I hope you've removed by now) all play against the idea of things dying while they're close to you.
Here's your new build:
Garg/Stinker (Can be swapped out with either Grasp/Rain or Soul Harvest if you want to run both)
Your choice of: Grasp/Rain of Corpses or Soul Harvest with whatever rune makes you jolly.
Passives: Jungle Fortitude, Spirit Vessel, and your choice of either Pierce the Veil or Bad Medicine.
BBVD's CD is downright insane, and you have no way to reduce that CD because you're not using Grave Injustice. You're not using Grave Injustice because things will not be dying near you at all, ever.
Garg/Stinker does AoE which proc's LoH, which will jive well with the fact that you're using Acid/Slow Burn, Toads, and dogs. All of which proc LoH at insanely high levels. You're stacking LoH, right? If not, you should be.
Grasp and Soul Harvest both take advantage of the fact that your 2 trusty buddies are doing their best to hold things in a small, confined place for you to slaughter mercilessly. It doesn't matter what they think their DPS is, the reality of this group dynamic is that you will be doing most of the killing. It's what WD's do.
The ever-present 15% damage reduction from Jungle Fortitude outweighs the BS 100% armor boost for 8 seconds from Horrify.
The choice of pierce or Bad medicine as a passive is up to your group. If they feel like they're taking too much damage, go with bad medicine.
Oh, and you're switching the rune on Acid Rain to Slow burn because with cyclone strike and ground stomp you wont need the + damage radius of Acid.
I hope this helps. I have to go.
Edited by Diomedes#1380 on 2/4/2013 6:15 PM PST
^ Good ideas on monk
Yup, I don't want to list numbers other than the comfortable numbers because sometimes when people reach that point, they think it's "good enough", when in fact they should be shooting to be more comfortable. =]
Barb's Rend: Blood Lust doesn't return nearly as much as you think, but may still be useful.
Blood Lust return is 700% divided over 5 seconds (only 140%, worse than Bash at 1 attack speed), and heals at 1.8 percent of that each second, so not that much. Nice when it hits tons of enemies when pulled in with Wrenching Smash, so it still has its place for tanking.
I would think of it as adding a certain amount to your life per second, rather than a huge heal like Revenge (about a couple hundred life per second when hitting a regular mob).
Edited by MrDeAtH#1112 on 2/4/2013 6:08 PM PST
Don't worry, 30k is fine for leveling solo, just takes slightly longer. I would suggest more for groups as you want to be able to handle the higher monster HP even if the group isn't coordinated.
WD: I have 350k EHP, 70k DPS. I felt fine solo farming Act 3 back when I barely had 300k and 40k dps. Pets + Jaunt + Spirit Vessel makes you a HC God. The only thing that ever worried my WD when I first started were the horde packs of Tremors in Fields of Slaughter. Fast + Shielding + Vortex is scarey. Honestly I stayed out of that zone until I got a bit stronger.
Barb: I have 800k, before warcry, no shield, non-perma wrath WW build. I feel pretty safe, but I avoid Keeps 2 and any place I could get walled in a really tight spot. If I put on a shield I'm over 1.3 Million and I'm pretty much invincible, but it's slower.
Monk. I have almost 800k before dodge and block. Overawe. Life Regen, 35kdps. I can run act 3 but I worry about getting stuck. I feel like monks don't feel safe/face roll until you hit about 50k DPS.
DH: I have almost 400k EHP, 80k dps, I wont leave Act 1 solo because I've lost too many DH solo.
Edited by Grovel#1729 on 2/4/2013 6:12 PM PST
Eh, I wanna chime in on a build for the WD. =]
I like the one in your profile better. I just adjusted some skills and runes. But you may want to change the mouse buttons. I'd do Rain of Toads on left, Zombie Bears on right.
1. Acid Rain... you will find at your dps, it will not do much damage with 3 players. Kind of waste of mana. Zombie Bears is good because your teammates will hold the monsters in place making it easy to aim. Also does way better with your lifeleech.
2. Zombie Dogs: Final Gift is not really useful without Circle of Life or Sacrifice. Changed to Leeching Beasts, but Life Link is good also.
3. Swapped out Grave Injustice for Bad Medicine. But when comfortable, use Blood Ritual. I don't' like Pierce the Veil because it's not worth it in most builds. More mana = more attacks.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far guys. I like a lot of them and taking all under advisement.
My current build in profile is not what i normally run. I usally have sacrifice and circle of life. Thus the finaly gift. The current build is, well im not really sure lol. I was running a low lvl friend through a few maps and just picked up soul harvest and garg for more dps.. prolly shoulda used bears as well just didnt think about it at the time.
I like a lot of your suggestions. Some have already been decided in favor of. I use a TotD to boost GI's distance. Having the extra spirit walk has saved my life so many times.. and every time Ive switched it out for the exact reasons you've listed Ive found myself in a situation were I felt like I was pushing my luck in a bad way not having those few seconds off my CD"s.
I suppose if the group proves to be able to control the field enough to were I dont need that extra SW anymore I could change it and feel safe.. Just have to see on that one.
TotD always has very low average dmg, and yours is REALLY low.
You would get like a 9k boost in damage from using a decent mojo with better average damage and crit chance%.
And as Death said, your weapon does not jive with your skills. Life Steal is only really good with Bears, and with the skills you're using you should be leaning towards LoH.
Manajumas is a great weapon at a cheap price, but you're much better off with a socketed LoH wep with the skills you're using.
Edited by Diomedes#1380 on 2/5/2013 12:53 AM PST
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