Diablo® III

Multiplayer is wrong NOT Itemization

You people keep complaining about Itemization being wrong.. but it isn't, if you played Diablo 2, there was fewer options in which Unique/Legendary Options, or sets, etc, if you wanted to make a sorc/wizard, you already had in mind which rings, which orb, which shield, which helmet..

In Diablo3 you have a lot of different options to make your build, plus the rares that can be really good, in my honest opinion, it's all correct, the game gotta be hard, you're not supposed to find 20-100 millions equips every other day, then you'd be high-end and no more fun...

What is wrong is the concept with multiplayer, not being able to see the games, or choose the game you want... only having up to 4 players in a game, that's what is wrong, it was the best when we could join big runs with the same people over and over that you didn't know.

I think what is missing is the customization to search/create games and more players in a game.
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No, loot in D3 is terrible.

Multiplayer is bad too.

All around the game is a failure. I haven't actually logged into D3 since I got Dark Souls.

You want real action RPG gaming with plenty of variety, good loot, and hard bosses?

That is the game you play.
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1st half, no...just no...Gear in D3 is entirely boiled down to stats, nothing else. Once you hit 60 &100kdps all you do is upgrade to the same piece of gear just with higher stats. There's no alternate routes to a new build, no item is going to make you change your mind and try something drastically different from anyone else. It's a treadmill of stacking meaningless points.

D3 has the foundation (with the ability to change skills whenever you feel like) to having an itemization pool FILLED with unique crazy !@# gear that could get you motivated to trying something new/more efficient/less efficient but FUN. Itemization is the MAIN THING holding this game back from being great. We wanted a D2 sequel and got a WoW spinoff.

2nd half of your post, yes completely agree with. Multiplayer is a form of punishment and besides Ubers, has no point.
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Posts: 1,076
OP is so wrong about itemization but so right about multiplayer.

In D2, I can find awesome items like occy, lidless, mageplate, etc. in nightmare which is saying something. You don't find anything worth more than junk in D3 until you're level 60 (not counting a LS because that's like 1 item seriously). D2 had items that granted you skills of other classes which allowed a whole variety of builds and characters to pop up. Diablo 3 restricts you to your own class's abilities (of which only a few are actually viable in end-game scenarios).

The problem with multiplayer in D3 is as you said: there's no reason to. Before, there was a reason not to due to higher damage on mobs, but then blizz removed it because it punished the players too harshly. That's one way to deal with it, but it still doesn't give us players any desire to play with others outside of "herp let's play together man."
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OP says he played D2, but obviously didn't. There were far more unique gearing options there than D3. The loot in D3 is just awful. There really are no positives to the current system. The only way anyone could possibly think that the current system is good is if they don't have ARPG experience and can only speak from an MMO perspective.
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02/05/2013 04:35 AMPosted by steveman0
OP says he played D2, but obviously didn't


D2 was many different things to many different people... you saying this is no different than Jay Wilson saying that we have false memories of D2. You are generalizing your own experience with D2 to be everyone else's.

You are dead wrong for doing so.

Now, OP has a point.. there weren't many options for your characters in d2.

Sorc for instance? Caster.. hmm helms.. Shako for PVE.. Nightwings/Griffs for PVP. That's a whopping 2(3) choices. lol.

Rings.. rare FCR ring for some specs, or SOJ/BK for Blizz spec (whopping 2 or 3 choices)

Weapon slot Occy for PVE... or Death's Fathom/Eschuta's for PVP (again, 2 or 3 choices)

Belt.. Arach or various sorb belts for bm PVP

etc..

As you can see, the choices was really limited. Barb's wear Arreats or CoA for their helm, or if you were super rich a Visionary Rare.. oh look, 3 viable choices.

There's many more choices for different specs in D3. There literally 1,000s of items you can wear, some of the best rolled rares can still surpass BiS legendaries, if you get that exceptional perfect 6 affix roll.
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You people keep complaining about Itemization being wrong.. but it isn't, if you played Diablo 2, there was fewer options in which Unique/Legendary Options, or sets, etc, if you wanted to make a sorc/wizard, you already had in mind which rings, which orb, which shield, which helmet..

In Diablo3 you have a lot of different options to make your build, plus the rares that can be really good, in my honest opinion, it's all correct, the game gotta be hard, you're not supposed to find 20-100 millions equips every other day, then you'd be high-end and no more fun...

What is wrong is the concept with multiplayer, not being able to see the games, or choose the game you want... only having up to 4 players in a game, that's what is wrong, it was the best when we could join big runs with the same people over and over that you didn't know.

I think what is missing is the customization to search/create games and more players in a game.


You have an interesting perspective but there are a lot of problems linked to itemization.

In d2 you had a lot of creative elements to work with. Trying to reach break points with a number of different things like block rate, cast rate, movement speed, attack speed, etc… You also had to work around strength requirements of items and max block rate. There were affixes that added to certain types of elemental damage like nightwings helm for a cold sorc or using a 160/60 shield and using facets. Even other class skills showed up on certain items like teleport and enigma. Different items made fun and amazing builds in d2.

In d3 it is dumbed down. Its all about failed itemization. You get optimal item stats and that’s it. There is no thought or creativity in d3 itemization like d2 had. I really like the easy to join game feature in d3. Trying to find a game in d2 sucked. Are you crazy? I understand how this is going to be an issue when it comes to dueling but that should be a patchable fix. You can fix itemization in a patch.
Edited by OldSchool#1359 on 2/5/2013 4:49 AM PST
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02/05/2013 04:46 AMPosted by Paz
OP says he played D2, but obviously didn't


D2 was many different things to many different people... you saying this is no different than Jay Wilson saying that we have false memories of D2. You are generalizing your own experience with D2 to be everyone else's.

You are dead wrong for doing so.

Now, OP has a point.. there weren't many options for your characters in d2.

Sorc for instance? Caster.. hmm helms.. Shako for PVE.. Nightwings/Griffs for PVP. That's a whopping 2(3) choices. lol.

Rings.. rare FCR ring for some specs, or SOJ/BK for Blizz spec (whopping 2 or 3 choices)

Weapon slot Occy for PVE... or Death's Fathom/Eschuta's for PVP (again, 2 or 3 choices)

Belt.. Arach or various sorb belts for bm PVP

etc..

As you can see, the choices was really limited. Barb's wear Arreats or CoA for their helm, or if you were super rich a Visionary Rare.. oh look, 3 viable choices.

There's many more choices for different specs in D3. There literally 1,000s of items you can wear, some of the best rolled rares can still surpass BiS legendaries, if you get that exceptional perfect 6 affix roll.


people dont understand this

if u were mf char, 90% of all mf chars had the same gear (same uniques/runewords>

if u were pvp char, 90% of pvp char had same gear (same uniques/runewords)

for those two types, upgrades were already impossible to find

but in d2, there were a lot more builds imo but alll builds had same end gear and upgrades were impossible to find

80% of uniques in d2 were useless
50% of runewords were uselss

drop rates on "gg" uniques were super super low

as i remember over 90% of teh mf drops i had were useless

but ladder was the "king" which made uniques (lower class ones) worth something UNTIL everyone had access to the lower class ones (such as shako, occy)
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You people keep complaining about Itemization being wrong.. but it isn't, if you played Diablo 2, there was fewer options in which Unique/Legendary Options, or sets, etc, if you wanted to make a sorc/wizard, you already had in mind which rings, which orb, which shield, which helmet..

In Diablo3 you have a lot of different options to make your build, plus the rares that can be really good, in my honest opinion, it's all correct, the game gotta be hard, you're not supposed to find 20-100 millions equips every other day, then you'd be high-end and no more fun...

What is wrong is the concept with multiplayer, not being able to see the games, or choose the game you want... only having up to 4 players in a game, that's what is wrong, it was the best when we could join big runs with the same people over and over that you didn't know.

I think what is missing is the customization to search/create games and more players in a game.

No the fact that I can find an EF that is worth a brimstone or worth $7000 is what is wrong. The gap is way to large and therefore to random.
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What could Blizzard change to make MP more desirable to play?

Double the enemies with each player including champion packs? More exp and more loot.

Increase quality of items found with each player? Larger chance of 5 / 6 property rolls ( including legendary? )

The obvious change would be to allow players to create games / browse a server list.. Now many people can do runs with others that they want just by looking at a list. And now that the next patch adds matchmaking with MP levels it would be a change that would make even more sense.

It just seems Blizzard lost sight of the entire Multiplayer aspect of this game and genre.
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80% of uniques in d2 were useless
50% of runewords were uselss

You seem to be using a different definition of "useless" than modern society. Mind sharing?
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Now, OP has a point.. there weren't many options for your characters in d2.

Sorc for instance? Caster.. hmm helms.. Shako for PVE.. Nightwings/Griffs for PVP. That's a whopping 2(3) choices. lol.


You're forgetting Tal's, and dream. Also lots use griffens eye for pve. You basically took two out of several viable sorc builds and pretended they are the only ones that exist.
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80% of uniques in d2 were useless
50% of runewords were uselss

You seem to be using a different definition of "useless" than modern society. Mind sharing?


when i say useless

it means no one will ever use for end game
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You seem to be using a different definition of "useless" than modern society. Mind sharing?


when i say useless

it means no one will ever use for end game


And in D2, there was not "end game" in the MMO sense we have in D3.

You re-rolled constantly to try out new builds, new items, etc. The idea wasn't "get to X point in the game and farm it until you quit," but rather "find items and make characters to use them in unique ways."
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when i say useless

it means no one will ever use for end game


And in D2, there was not "end game" in the MMO sense we have in D3.

You re-rolled constantly to try out new builds, new items, etc. The idea wasn't "get to X point in the game and farm it until you quit," but rather "find items and make characters to use them in unique ways."


once u reached at least lvl 80, you either had all the best gear for mfing, pvping... the only grind was exp runs to get to lvl 99 other than that, the game was done, u either pvp or keep looking for the "godliest" uniques, all other uniques were !@#$ (80%) and was useless for anything else, even for new builds, but all the good builds would require the (20%) of the "godliest uniques already

there were never new items, crafted items in d2 would require a very high level or else they all sucked anyway, 99% of the players never used crafted items anyway...the only good rares were circlets (same probability as rolling godly rares in d3) which were very rare

every paladin would have about 50% of the same gear, the rest would be changed by what build they did... auradin, hdin, smiter, zeal (which were the only builds i have seen that were "good")
and same goes for all the other classes

anyways, it would be great to have a lobby where we can see a list of games created by other players like in d2
Edited by pHkaty#1127 on 2/5/2013 10:47 AM PST
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Man, that is some hardcore dumpster English you're typing in. Let's see if I can translate from scrub to English to make sense of this...

At level 80, the game came down to PVPing, MFing, or grinding? Well, yes, this is true. If you decided to keep playing the same character, those would be your only avenues of play. I, on the other hand, would distract myself by making a new character based around an item or two that I had found. I had a bone necro at level 90, but I found a ton of poison items so I remade a poison nova necro. This, in turn, made me want to try a melee poison dagger necro. By finding new items through the leveling process, I had the ability to deck out fairly low level characters with multiple uniques focused specifically on the abilities I wanted to use. My original bone necro's finds are what fueled my subsequent necromancer builds.

So the majority of runewords were useless AND/OR required high level runes? Odd, because I recall making "Ith El Eth" weapons on almost all my leveling characters using only the runes I had found. Furthermore, orange crafting of items was something I did a lot to use all those low-end rare rings or amulets that we collected. This crafting didn't always give me great items, but it gave me a use for items that I had already decided were bad. See, the opportunity to use a poorly rolled item for something (ANYTHING) is important in making players not feel as though their time is wasted.

Everyone had the same gear? Well given that they were all following the same builds, that's to be expected. There are always specific builds, gearing setups, or ability combinations that provide success for unskilled players. These baddies (like every WW barb in D3) just use what someone else came up with to achieve a level of success they couldn't get otherwise. The simpler it is, the more likely you can expect it to be copied (see: hammer paladins). The difference is that alternatives existed so that other builds could be made. In just the paladin class, Fist of the Heavens, auradin, smiter, and zeal (5 options) you had more opportunity to make a different character than you do with two or three D3 character classes.

In short, you sound like Jay "Three Chins" Wilson. Just because YOU tried to min/max in D2 by reading strategies posted online and copying builds does not mean that all people played that way. I had a very enjoyable time making and re-making unique builds around key unique items. All of this is simply not possible in D3 and it explains why so many of us have changed to playing POE.
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Man, that is some hardcore dumpster English you're typing in. Let's see if I can translate from scrub to English to make sense of this...

At level 80, the game came down to PVPing, MFing, or grinding? Well, yes, this is true. If you decided to keep playing the same character, those would be your only avenues of play. I, on the other hand, would distract myself by making a new character based around an item or two that I had found. I had a bone necro at level 90, but I found a ton of poison items so I remade a poison nova necro. This, in turn, made me want to try a melee poison dagger necro. By finding new items through the leveling process, I had the ability to deck out fairly low level characters with multiple uniques focused specifically on the abilities I wanted to use. My original bone necro's finds are what fueled my subsequent necromancer builds.

So the majority of runewords were useless AND/OR required high level runes? Odd, because I recall making "Ith El Eth" weapons on almost all my leveling characters using only the runes I had found. Furthermore, orange crafting of items was something I did a lot to use all those low-end rare rings or amulets that we collected. This crafting didn't always give me great items, but it gave me a use for items that I had already decided were bad. See, the opportunity to use a poorly rolled item for something (ANYTHING) is important in making players not feel as though their time is wasted.

Everyone had the same gear? Well given that they were all following the same builds, that's to be expected. There are always specific builds, gearing setups, or ability combinations that provide success for unskilled players. These baddies (like every WW barb in D3) just use what someone else came up with to achieve a level of success they couldn't get otherwise. The simpler it is, the more likely you can expect it to be copied (see: hammer paladins). The difference is that alternatives existed so that other builds could be made. In just the paladin class, Fist of the Heavens, auradin, smiter, and zeal (5 options) you had more opportunity to make a different character than you do with two or three D3 character classes.

In short, you sound like Jay "Three Chins" Wilson. Just because YOU tried to min/max in D2 by reading strategies posted online and copying builds does not mean that all people played that way. I had a very enjoyable time making and re-making unique builds around key unique items. All of this is simply not possible in D3 and it explains why so many of us have changed to playing POE.


ok, u win... go play poe

anyone can make useless runewords btw
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I played basically every build on Diablo2, I played since it launched...
Basically every build.... and there were some equips that were also super over priced..

Enigma was a must in lots of builds, a crappy one is cheap, a good 15/15 AP was overpriced, everything worked that way, thats why I say itemization isnt the problem..

The MULTIPLAYER is what we miss the most... being able to play with other people on random games... and not only 4 characters..

a lot of problems you guys see now can be related as well to D2 Classic, if there will ever be a expansion to D3, you'll see a lot of different things, maybe weapons that gives skills like they did in D2, whatever, and ladder would be sweet too, the rushing
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a perfect roll will always be over priced, becuase its perfect.. no more upgrading for that item.. but there should not be a brimstone vs 40kkk item.. thats the issue..
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I played basically every build on Diablo2, I played since it launched...
Basically every build.... and there were some equips that were also super over priced..

Enigma was a must in lots of builds, a crappy one is cheap, a good 15/15 AP was overpriced, everything worked that way, thats why I say itemization isnt the problem..

The MULTIPLAYER is what we miss the most... being able to play with other people on random games... and not only 4 characters..

a lot of problems you guys see now can be related as well to D2 Classic, if there will ever be a expansion to D3, you'll see a lot of different things, maybe weapons that gives skills like they did in D2, whatever, and ladder would be sweet too, the rushing


sad thing is, people dont understand this

its either..
1. they didnt play d2 like they said
or
2. they are just mad that d3 wasnt what they expected it to be (similar to d2, which i thought would have been great also but i guess im fine with this for now...)

all i know is that drop rates for d2 and d3 still feel the same, godly gear is very hard to find, semi good to very bad drops are what everyone gets mostly
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