Diablo® III

0 DOG Guide - Updated P1.0.8 (10-18-13)

I've been doing some testing around with the skill rune next of kin. I'm finding it has more damage than for the master and more survivability than provoke the pack. My gear has very little +globes on it so it would probably work better for others. Can you guys do some of your own tests and let me know what you find out?
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Breaking point for me was throwing on 30k globes. When I had 20k I just didn't have enough life regen to survive it. Interestingly moving to 30k globes and moving to provoke seemed to be better to withstand additional arcanes. Plague and desecrators are around the same. Ghom and Azmodan tested out fine. Also, going full bore on RD packs has been sustainable.

With RD packs I have to start ramping up on globes before I make contact which means either start blasting before they get to me or spirit walk in, drop mass confuse / slam dance and go full bore. Once the globes start flowing it counters the damage.
Edited by Shockwave#1233 on 5/6/2013 7:53 PM PDT
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05/06/2013 07:20 PMPosted by Blingazinga
I've been doing some testing around with the skill rune next of kin. I'm finding it has more damage than for the master and more survivability than provoke the pack. My gear has very little +globes on it so it would probably work better for others. Can you guys do some of your own tests and let me know what you find out?


I have not actually tested "next of kin" myself but from other tests I've done the most dogs you can have summoned at a single time is 4 provided you are using zombie handler. However, *IF* "next of kin" allows you to exceed the 4 dog limit then that might be something worth testing, imagine blowing up 6-8 dogs at once that would be pretty sick.
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Breaking point for me was throwing on 30k globes. When I had 20k I just didn't have enough life regen to survive it. Interestingly moving to 30k globes and moving to provoke seemed to be better to withstand additional arcanes. Plague and desecrators are around the same. Ghom and Azmodan tested out fine. Also, going full bore on RD packs has been sustainable.

With RD packs I have to start ramping up on globes before I make contact which means either start blasting before they get to me or spirit walk in, drop mass confuse / slam dance and go full bore. Once the globes start flowing it counters the damage.


Yeah thats pretty much how I've been having to do with RD packs they are pretty much the only affix that gives me trouble with PtP, they are do able but u have to be some what cautious when you engage them, mostly just the yellows, blue rd packs aren't to much trouble.
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3% ls for me is not enough to counter RD packs. I for one use Provoke the Pack and a little switch in strategy goes a long way with RD packs.

-if it's just the elite pack and no trash, don't stand in the middle of all of them. All those dogs connecting to each elite by standing in the middle is a lot of pain. Run around them in circles stagger casting dogs/sac 3x cast per stagger until the RD pulses off. As the elites start dropping, RD becomes easier to ignore.

-SW right after SH and get in the middle, BBV, Paranioa then spam dogs/sac. If you have decent APS, the 3 seconds jaunt provides you is more than enough for the globe windup to help with the 3% LS. RD pulses intermittently and I have found the faster you can dish out the high damage, the faster the first pulse disappears (this is only a theory through observation). So far seems to be consistent tho. This provides you enough time to knockout the elites before the second pulse. If they don't drop, just rinse and repeat.

-if there are a lot of trash mobs, just herd them all into one big pile, with the elite pack somewhere in the middle, SW into the pile, dogs/sac. With decent AS, the trash mobs altogether should provide you with enough life return to make your ls workable enough to ignore RD til the elite pack is dead. Provided there are enough trash to feed ls off of.
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Net of Kin doesn't seem to be any better for me. Actually seems to be a slight delay when the extra dog summons.
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05/06/2013 08:39 PMPosted by LordAmsa
-if it's just the elite pack and no trash, don't stand in the middle of all of them. All those dogs connecting to each elite by standing in the middle is a lot of pain. Run around them in circles stagger casting dogs/sac 3x cast per stagger until the RD pulses off. As the elites start dropping, RD becomes easier to ignore.


Maybe one big difference is your DPS is so much higher than mine so return on damage would be very high. What I was finding before with 20k globes is I couldn't pile the damage on all of them like you were saying. Even lower MP was very similar. My damage output was too high and armor / AR / life couldn't protect enough. 30k became the tipping point to go in full bore with PtP.

I'm not quite set enough for MP10 but was trying out a few things out (great place to test for success / epic fail). I hit a yellow RD pack and was in the middle blasting away. No problem after 3 second jaunt. It's the freeze bombs that get me all lol. Other than that most of the stuff is manageable without a need to kite around. I need more EHP and DPS to make a good go of mp10 though.
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I have not actually tested "next of kin" myself but from other tests I've done the most dogs you can have summoned at a single time is 4 provided you are using zombie handler. However, *IF* "next of kin" allows you to exceed the 4 dog limit then that might be something worth testing, imagine blowing up 6-8 dogs at once that would be pretty sick.

When I play I hold down the sacrifice key and tap the summon key. With next of kin each dog has a 35% chance to create a new dog that blows up immediately since you're holding down sacrifice. The extra dogs also have a chance to leave behind a globe.

I was testing and timing mp9 Ghom kills using no other skills, buffs or followers to try and control the test as much as possible. Next of kin cut off an average of a full 10 seconds off my kill times. With provoke the pack I was unable to maintain enough healing to face tank him and would either die or have to kite which would botch the time even worse than for the master.

Seriously, give it a try! With your much higher +globes I think you'll do even better.

EDIT: you also see sweet pillars of light flash all over the screen every "free" dog you summon. When you hit a lucky string its almost seizure inducing.
Edited by Blingazinga#1799 on 5/7/2013 9:49 AM PDT
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I was testing and timing mp9 Ghom kills using no other skills, buffs or followers to try and control the test as much as possible. Next of kin cut off an average of a full 10 seconds off my kill times. With provoke the pack I was unable to maintain enough healing to face tank him and would either die or have to kite which would botch the time even worse than for the master.

Seriously, give it a try! With your much higher +globes I think you'll do even better.


I'll try using it again. Never thought to use Ghom for a timed kill. My attack speed is currently 2.19. What I seemed to notice was every time the ray of light shoots up for the extra dog there seemed to be some slight lag or delay to the next cast. Made it sound like a misfiring engine to put it another way. Damage ticks were displaying less damage than PtV but did seem to be higher than FtM. I'll post back when the servers are up. :)

EDIT: Well.. my results were worse. My healing was challenged against Ghom and took some 20 seconds longer. I have my sacrifice bound to the mouse wheel now which has been better for provoke. Maybe take some tweaking or increasing attack speed.

EDIT 2: Attack speed 2.3. It did seem better for heal with NoK and the delay in fire was basically gone. The time to kill was the same. Basically both tests the percentage in time to kill was around 15-20% faster for PtP. Used a set of lacunis to increase my speed and overall my kill time was 15 seconds longer than my BoA bracers.
Edited by Shockwave#1233 on 5/7/2013 11:16 AM PDT
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Updated for P1.0.8 (5-15-13) Happy Anniversary D3.
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A lot of players claim that attack speed is fake dps or inflated dps. I’m here to tell you that those players are flat out ignorant and they don’t know what they are talking about, so please do not listen to them.


I would still say this part of your guide is abit harsh and can be toned down abit considering it's the defacto guide for 0dog :D
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05/15/2013 02:04 AMPosted by Psyclum
A lot of players claim that attack speed is fake dps or inflated dps. I’m here to tell you that those players are flat out ignorant and they don’t know what they are talking about, so please do not listen to them.


I would still say this part of your guide is abit harsh and can be toned down abit considering it's the defacto guide for 0dog :D


lol, why am I not surprised that you would say that. I thought u quit?

Not sure that I'm going to change that because its true :P

Furthermore you are like the only WD I've ever encountered that actually doesn't want/like attack speed on their 0 Dog build, perhaps you should re read my disclaimer at the beginning of the guide.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/15/2013 2:11 AM PDT
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05/06/2013 08:41 PMPosted by Shockwave
Net of Kin doesn't seem to be any better for me. Actually seems to be a slight delay when the extra dog summons.


Yeah I tested it the other day, it doesn't allow you to exceed the 4 dog limit so PtP would still be the higher dps choice. But man imagine how OP that would be if it did, it would be so sick, lol. I'm actually going back to FtM for group plae unless the group is like super pro.
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i havent played D3 since 1.08. messed around with marvel heroes and now i'm going back to some lotro. bought the latest lotro expansion and never actually played it so i figure i at least need to finish the expansion. having the luxury of a lifetime account means I can go back to it anytime I'm in between games :D

kinda surprised that you didn't mention bats as an alternative for either jinx or MC. it's not a bad replacement for a different play style.

as far as the speed thing, It's something I think people should play around with as their equipment matures. as the defacto guide, you should at least leave that door open for experimentation. we all know that eventually, in an end game build, everyone will have to take haste because it's one of the trifecta stats. but in the process of upgrading to that level of gear, I feel it's alittle too limiting to have such harsh comment towards alternative styles.

I was lucky that my friend was able to hand me his old gears as he upgraded when I came back to D3 a few months ago. so I suppose my view on the 0dog has always been abit different. I got used to seeing those big crits and it's hard to let it go :D but it also opened up possibilities for my gear selection beyond going full haste. it allowed me to experiment with different int levels since it's alot easier to look for bifecta with high int then trifecta with high int :D

anyway. i'll be hanging out in middle earth for awhile. i might come back once the economy settles or maybe i'll just wait and see what itemization brings to the game.
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I watched a WD live stream CoB/0 Dog yesterday, although he did well in his 1st group because he had a CM wiz and a monk his build did not do well when he wasn't grouped with that same make up, he started dying a lot and when he played solo he couldn't tank and also died a lot which = fail build.

So that's why I didn't include it in the guide along with the fact that the two skills kinda cancel each other out one being dependent on high attack speed and the other not. But I could see u running a build like that based on your view of the 0 Dog build. I just don't promote builds to players that's going to get them killed.

However, I did watch another WD run CoB/Bears and that build works very well. So a nice group would be a CM Wiz, Monk, 0 Dog WD, and CoB/Bears WD.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/15/2013 3:09 AM PDT
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With the new monster density changes, has anyone switched to the languish rune for Soul Harvest? I actually multibox my 0dog Wd with a cyclone monk to change things up once in a while, and found that this complemented the combo very nicely. With the relatively short CD to SH it would seem easier to get a full 5 SH and thus more viable now with the increased monster density.
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05/15/2013 09:49 AMPosted by d3tox
With the new monster density changes, has anyone switched to the languish rune for Soul Harvest? I actually multibox my 0dog Wd with a cyclone monk to change things up once in a while, and found that this complemented the combo very nicely. With the relatively short CD to SH it would seem easier to get a full 5 SH and thus more viable now with the increased monster density.


Sounds like a good idea especially for elites that run away lol, thx for posting. Next chance I get Ill add that to the guide.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 5/15/2013 5:05 PM PDT
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@heyguyslol,

FANTASTIC guide, really comprehensive covering all the points someone could want to know, congrats. I hit the forums for a pal who just built a 0 dog for the heck of it (he's already got 3 other classes that can run MP10 fine), but as we ran our WDs together found he was still dying in MP8, so asked me to research.

One thing you might want to change in your guide is a line in the section: "Should I stack All Resist or Armor?"

You said the correct ratio is 15AR = 100 armor, not the 10=100 often quoted. Actually there is no general rule, so both can be wrong for most people. The specific indifference point or equivalence point varies by the amount of AR or armor the toon already has. So as you stack more of one, the marginal benefit of stacking more of the same drops as compared to the other. Simply put, if you divide your armor by 10, then whichever of armor/10 or AR is lower will give you more benefit when adding either 1AR or 10armor. For you and most WDs who naturally have high AR due to Intell, the tradeoff ratio will probably be close to as you say 15AR=100. (Actually my crappy WD has so little armor that his indifference point is 18AR=100Armor)

Because maximum AR rolls higher than Armor for most slots, it's generally cheaper to stack AR than armor, so for almost everyone the 1:10 ratio of AR:armor is not the most economical goal for which to aim. The only way to know the specific tradeoff for any given toon is by using D3up or using the specific damage reduction formula in a spreadsheet (which can be looked up on-line).

Hope my volume of text does not distract from what really is one of the best build guides I have ever come across. Too bad I can't afford to build a 0 dogs myself, your guide certainly tempted me

Thanks again
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Just looked at your profile @heyguyslol, wow your secondary toon monk is great too, can certainly slap my main around :) Congrats
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Good work HeyGuysLOL, I'm going to do some Skull Grasp analysis to see what effects different stats have on DPS. Of course I have to finish Metro Last Light first, I love stealth games!
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