Diablo® III

D3 Item Game: A Big Step Back

02/03/2013 07:27 AMPosted by steveman0


Good point D2 vanilla had runes and runewords. So then all the expansion did was add in a new act. I get it now the expansion did not exist at all. That is an illusion, D2 comparison is comparing D2 only because the expansion was never made right.

SA is showing his D2 noobdom again...


So then I need to make it blaringly obvious what part of the OP that I am replying to with that comment. I see you forgot that the OP said the following.

And please don't feed me the usual "D2 didn't have at launch" garbage,
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8135/diabloevolution.jpg
is not how a business should be progressing with their products in terms of amount of features. If D2 LOD left off with a certain feature, D3 should have improved on it or at the very least replaced it with something new. It feels like they simply deleted half the game and dusted their hands off.


Now did you see class on what part I was replying to, did I really need to make it that clear. I begin to wonder just who I am talking to.

Now if you cannot say that D2 didn't have it at launch and he includes runewords. That means that D2 launched with runewords, and who knows maybe even with five full acts, charms, jewels, etc... Where as the expansion was just an illusion. It never really existed at all.
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Agreed. I feel like Blizzard removed a bunch of content from D2 -> D3 just so they can make tons of expansions like they did for WoW. If there is an expansion for D3 it will probably only be a +10 lvl cap and maybe +50 or +100 paragon cap. Maybe some features dragged over from D2. In ten years we'll have 4 expansions and the D3 we've all waited for...
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02/02/2013 12:19 PMPosted by AvantGarde
D2 didn't have those features at launch


Well, this is a sequel isn't it? Well, if you know it´s a sequel and yet you post that, you probably agree that game went backwards then, right?
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It is funny that you put together such a huge list of complaints and can't manage to explain how D3 improved on any of these supposed faults. The reality is that D2 had far more useful uniques than D3 has of useful legendaries. D3 has just as massive if not more so of a botting problem and apparently duping problem as D2. You also neglect the power and value of high end rares and crafted items which definitely appeared in some of the BiS lists for many character builds. Where is all this variety in D3? Your post seems to have forgotten to explain how what we have now is bett


Look if this game had duping like D2 then all of the best gear in the game with godly rolls would only be worth only 1 million gold. And that is the highest price you would see in the gold auction house. In fact you would see hundreds of thousands of Echoing Furies with perfect rolls. He is no doubt correct that a lot of the uniques in D2 were in fact crap at launch. Also LOD no doubt added in more uniques than the ones at launch. So you have to go from the point that the game launched which is what he is talking about.

The only thing that the devs have to do in order to give us a better system is to fix two areas. Both of which they are no doubt working on. The first area are the classes. Promote build diversity by increasing the number of active skills, runes and passive skills that the players will use.

Next fix itemization where you can have some cool builds based off of the gear you chose for your character. They might have some of that already covered but I have not tried to see if it would work or not.

I have been thinking about taking a monk or a barbarian where they would be all about thorns just to see what would happen if I did that.
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Sturenorth
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Rune words not being in diablo 3 is possibly the biggest let down in my opinion. They are what truly gave Diablo 2 the staying power it had; because without them it would've just been an endless hunt for the next shako or arreat's will. Giving class abilities to the wrong class and seeing what they can do with them was so fun (whirlwind on assassins, fanasticism on necros).

Overpowered, sure. That's the point. This franchise is not world of warcraft. It's not meant to be an e-sport, and it's not meant to be balanced. People play these games so that they can make their characters absurdly powerful and then trounce all over the enemies. Armed with the knowledge that people are so powerful, blizzard is free to release uber / optional content that's actually difficult and requires elite gear and planning ahead of time; rather than watering the content down so everyone can do it, get bored of it and go play Path of Exile or simply not play at all. Having difficult content, they could I don't know make it actually rewarding? Oh what a dream.

Spot on!

One critical element as to what makes Diablo 2 great
Blizz did a lot of awesome stuff for D3 such as the Combat but that needs to be backed up be a inventive customization with the parameter that IT IS OKEY TO BE OVER POWERED BEYOND ABSURD ITS NOT MENT TO BE BALANCED


Oh so millions of players would keep playing a game that has absolutely zero challenge for many years right. Being OP'd is where it is at, so there is no reason to invest into any particular stat or skill at all. Just mindlessly go in a flail away until the enemy stops moving right. Games that have zero challenge just do not get played period.
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OP nailed it.

I just try to pretend Diablo 3 never happened. DECKARD CAIN WAS KILLED "WHILE YOU WERE ON YOUR ERRAND" BY A BUTTERFLY FAIRY THING! Diablo is just annoying and not frightening at all. Ugghhhh. Did these people not play Diablo and Diablo 2? They were dark games. This is a very juvenile game. It's like they took pointers from 'other' Blizzard titles and ignored the Diablo franchise. They went WAYYYY backwards with the quests (no rewards or incentive), WAYYY back with the waypoint system, and WAY WAY WAY back by adding a Call of Duty style matchmaking thing. Ughhhhh. I won't even mention itemization because it doesn't exist.

Quite frankly, it makes me sick. All of it. 5/10 and that's being generous.
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Who is this 'ShadowAegis'? Why does he keep posting? And why does he counter-point in the same fashion as Bill O'Reilly? Upset that people are criticizing your favorite game?
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02/03/2013 05:41 PMPosted by SuperduperJW
They were dark games. This is a very juvenile game.


My favorite is how this Mature rated game, about the Devil and hell and sin, has automatic chat filters for bad words.

EVIL...
IS...
BACK...

But please, let's watch the language.
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Oh so millions of players would keep playing a game that has absolutely zero challenge for many years right. Being OP'd is where it is at, so there is no reason to invest into any particular stat or skill at all. Just mindlessly go in a flail away until the enemy stops moving right. Games that have zero challenge just do not get played period.


Being "OP'd" doesn't mean the game can't be challenging. If you actually read what I posted then you'd realize that if players could actually become more powerful then developers would be able to actively implement more challenging content in the form of optional ubers or super bosses just as they did in Diablo 2.

For some reason people mistake difficulty for longevity and enjoyment. Diablo 2 wasn't a difficult game. It still has a following today, people still enjoy playing it. By your logic no one should be playing it because it's not hard enough; but that clearly isn't the case.

Challenge is great to have in a game when it's done right. It's important that it be paced appropriately though. People aren't interested in sitting down to play D3 for hours at a time and being thoroughly challenged the entire time. They want to build their character, struggle to improve it, but ultimately be rewarded for their time. Their goal is to be able to zone out, listen to some music; maybe watch a movie while murdering their way through plenty of monsters and not feel like their undivided attention is required at all times.

When they feel more interested in being challenged they want the option to go into higher level areas, or areas with tougher npcs (worldstone keep, nilathak runs, basically anything in act 5).

Allowing for greater character growth lets the developers implement content that is more challenging, but in doing so also more rewarding perpetuating the 'carrot' for end game-centric players.
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+1 OP - I agree 100%

I have mentioned this in other posts and will do so here as well, as I don't think it has been mentioned yet.

Gear and itemization is only 1 of D3 core flaws. Skills/ runes are just as big an issue in the game if not more so then gear itemization is. The disaster of gear itemization is only because of the way the skill system was built.

Skills NEVER gain power throughout the course of the game in D3, they get unlocked at a certain lvl and are what they are for the rest of the game.

D2 your character gets 1 skill point per lvl from 1-99 to increase the power of whatever skill you want, this alone adds a lot of choices that are now removed from D3 in regards to equipment and skill diversity.

D3 the only way to do more damage and be able to handle increasing difficulty in the game is by stacking affixes that provide damage to your equipment over 13 character slots.

Basically all D3 characters are pigeon holed by skills and gear because of this. If you could raise your skills lvl and characters damage by doing so, items could become more diverse, with different effects that produce fun effects and make your character feel somewhat unique.

The game is flawed at its core. If the way skills aren't changed, then itemization won't change either. It will continue to be a damage stacking contest on 13 slots of gear, and the same 6 skills/ runes will be used on every character.
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The game is flawed at its core. If the way skills aren't changed, then itemization won't change either. It will continue to be a damage stacking contest on 13 slots of gear, and the same 6 skills/ runes will be used on every character.


This 100%

And, with every addition to the game so far, it's clear Blizzard doesn't get this or doesn't care about it.
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All of my upgrades on my monk came from the AH. I'm not even kidding. I used found gear from levels 1 - 20, but after that, I just gave up any hope of finding decent drops. It's ridiculous. If I relied on dropped items, I'd be geared terribly, and my gear would also be about 10 levels below my current level.

Loot drops should have a better chance of getting the stats that your class needs. This game feels more like a second job than a game. You play to get gold (because you're NEVER getting something usable), then you spend your gold to buy nice things. Maybe in 1.08 they'll introduce a mortgage simulator, or an insurance company that won't cover your operation (being an adventurer is a pre-existing condition?! COME ON!) Where is the fun, exactly, and how do I cut to it?

I mean... I can't groan loud enough. This is why I quit the game 3 days after it came out. Several months later, no changes. Good job, Blizz. Or should I say, Activision.

At least Starcraft II isn't awful. Did something right there.
Edited by WarrenZevon#1696 on 2/3/2013 10:24 PM PST
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The sad thing is that we've read threads like this one before. You stated it in a good way but the general statement you're making is the same as has been said time and time again. Diablo 3 messed up the game, only certain parts of it are good (with the exception of cooldowns, which are stupid). But this combat bases damage and abilities *mostly* upon weapons and less so upon other items, most of which are horribly boring or just plain useless in this game. I have one of the funniest weapons in the game (found it myself, I don't use AH). Slorak's Madness I think is it's name. It is a mixture of funny and frustrating at first when it laughs at your death, but after a while it gets olds and you tune it out (that's if you still use the weapon, I use a yellow wand with life on hit currently). The items are just so lackluster in this game. Being it is a newer game with updated processing and graphics and combat system and an auction house, you'd think the items would be legen... dary... pun/joke intended. But they're not, especially not the "legendary" items (with a few exceptions).

To repeat what I said at the beginning. The sad thing is that we've all thought this before and we've discussed this in forums before. The CM's and through them the developers have almost certainly read all this before as well, and yet we hear lame excuses as to why they don't fix bugs or overall lameness in items ' it might upset people who spent so much in buying these black items, leet attack speed items (oh wait they nerfed that), leet this leet that... if we fixed the items then people would complain because their current items would lose a lot of their value' yet they already ruined people's items before with both announced and ninja nerf patches.. so what ***valid excuse*** does development have for not fixing bugs in the game and vastly improving the power and creativity of items overall?? I really don't see any valid excuses here...
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To those saying "D2 didn't have all that at launch"... Well, duh, but they had a decade to figure out how to make a game good. Why start over with a lame product just to have people complain until they add the things they should have added from day 1? Oh and those things they'll add will probably be from expansions so, it should be pretty clear that know how to make money. They aren't stupid. They know the game people want, they will just take their time and collect their tolls while they get it there. The things they would never fix are imo some of the biggest problems, mainly the stat system. If you cry so hard that you were too stupid to make a viable build, you either shouldn't play, or you should make another character and do it right. All stats from gear/level? Why choose when you can have it all? Pathetic. A day and a half to get to lvl 60 in D3 as opposed to a lot more work in D2 + the fact that you had to work on your build for real. It was great having all different gear and making your own character unique. Even level 42 items from D2 could be used endgame. Now, even some lvl 60 items aren't close. They turned D3 into an arcade game with a save system.
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Care to provide a single example or is this pretty much you arguing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcHWeAzoXd4


^^lmao

This is the perfect example for many post from some people here!
Someone gives good arguments and tries to convince a donkey.

And +1 to this thread, a short and good summary!
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02/03/2013 07:20 PMPosted by Zero
Oh so millions of players would keep playing a game that has absolutely zero challenge for many years right. Being OP'd is where it is at, so there is no reason to invest into any particular stat or skill at all. Just mindlessly go in a flail away until the enemy stops moving right. Games that have zero challenge just do not get played period.


Being "OP'd" doesn't mean the game can't be challenging. If you actually read what I posted then you'd realize that if players could actually become more powerful then developers would be able to actively implement more challenging content in the form of optional ubers or super bosses just as they did in Diablo 2.

For some reason people mistake difficulty for longevity and enjoyment. Diablo 2 wasn't a difficult game. It still has a following today, people still enjoy playing it. By your logic no one should be playing it because it's not hard enough; but that clearly isn't the case.

Challenge is great to have in a game when it's done right. It's important that it be paced appropriately though. People aren't interested in sitting down to play D3 for hours at a time and being thoroughly challenged the entire time. They want to build their character, struggle to improve it, but ultimately be rewarded for their time. Their goal is to be able to zone out, listen to some music; maybe watch a movie while murdering their way through plenty of monsters and not feel like their undivided attention is required at all times.

When they feel more interested in being challenged they want the option to go into higher level areas, or areas with tougher npcs (worldstone keep, nilathak runs, basically anything in act 5).

Allowing for greater character growth lets the developers implement content that is more challenging, but in doing so also more rewarding perpetuating the 'carrot' for end game-centric players.


So then by your logic I could build a game where a naked level 1 could be the highest level monster in the game right. Heck by that logic I would have 10 billion players playing for the next 10,000 years right. Look when I said zero challenge I meant zero. Where you would not have to invest a single stat/skill point if you had them to spend. You would not have to have any gear at all. Just a simple level one could do just what I said. Now tell me in reality how many players would be playing.

Why do you think that MP was put into this game if challenge is not important to a game. It was put there because it had to be in order to provide the challenge that the majority was craving. Players will walk away from a game that represents no challenge at all. That is a known fact, a fact that cannot be changed.

D2 represented a baby challenge as far as I am concerned. Sure there was a small amount of difficulty but it was just a blip on the radar.

That game used a cheesy tactic and called it challenge having monsters that were immune to certain types of attacks. That just meant you had to have a character that had different types of damage on you at all times if you wanted to solo.

Now if you keep on going in this game and get gear that is more than just decent enough to clear inferno, like I did. Then you will be mowing through the game without any challenge at all. More so when patch 1.0.7 hits the live servers.

What is the point of playing if I play through 90+% of the game and I can be doing a whole bunch of other things and still not die. It is like saying that you become so powerful that you could be in the middle of a fight. Go to answer the phone, then eat lunch, go take a bio break. About a half an hour later you come back and your character is still there and his/her health globe did not budge at all. You might love that kind of baby challenge that uses cheesy mechanics in order to represent a so called challenge. But I want more than just a baby challenge, I want a real man's challenge.
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Guys it's called a corporate agenda, first and foremost it about their almighty god the dollar. Just wait, in 2-3 expansions and with the implementation of a cash shop we may have a game worthy of mentioning in the next 5-10 years.

Man tears have been wept over the regression instead of innovation as far as "most" systems in this Diablo installment go. Just find something else to tide yourself over with, keep a fan site which tracks game development favorited and once you see some interesting changes in works pop back in.
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The OP is spot on, none of their points can really be argued.

The lower level items don't really matter in the game.. your only leveling from 1-60! This isn't to 99 like D2. There have been people bragging about hitting level 60 in 2 days.

You can literally spend maybe 100K on some yellows that will carry you from 30 to 50 easily and another 50K on a couple more to hit 60. The likelyhood of you finding these yellows is next to nothing, and the blues you'd find along the way simply wont cut it.

It'd be nice if we had something to do with the piles upon piles of trash that drops. Hey a stat allocation system.. something to offset the balance of stats would even do. Nope, that would take people's gear dependency away so they won't need to use the RMAH.

How many posts have we seen on here where people stated "hey I've got a job, a family, I don't have time to farm for the items so I just buy them instead, it's a smarter investment". Yes it is a smarter investment.. but it points to the glaring problem.. gear dependency when gear doesn't drop which leads people to the rmah.

"Yet in D2, you can find a unique 9-14 DPS weapon from Hell Baal.

Where do you put that weapon by the way, is it EXCEPTIONAL or GODLY?"

Terrible.. you need to use your head.. where might you think it'd be used. That's right.. when you pass it onto your lower level character... that's where.
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 2/4/2013 1:27 AM PST
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Sturenorth
View profile


Rune words not being in diablo 3 is possibly the biggest let down in my opinion. They are what truly gave Diablo 2 the staying power it had; because without them it would've just been an endless hunt for the next shako or arreat's will. Giving class abilities to the wrong class and seeing what they can do with them was so fun (whirlwind on assassins, fanasticism on necros).

Overpowered, sure. That's the point. This franchise is not world of warcraft. It's not meant to be an e-sport, and it's not meant to be balanced. People play these games so that they can make their characters absurdly powerful and then trounce all over the enemies. Armed with the knowledge that people are so powerful, blizzard is free to release uber / optional content that's actually difficult and requires elite gear and planning ahead of time; rather than watering the content down so everyone can do it, get bored of it and go play Path of Exile or simply not play at all. Having difficult content, they could I don't know make it actually rewarding? Oh what a dream.

Spot on!

One critical element as to what makes Diablo 2 great
Blizz did a lot of awesome stuff for D3 such as the Combat but that needs to be backed up be a inventive customization with the parameter that IT IS OKEY TO BE OVER POWERED BEYOND ABSURD ITS NOT MENT TO BE BALANCED


Oh so millions of players would keep playing a game that has absolutely zero challenge for many years right. Being OP'd is where it is at, so there is no reason to invest into any particular stat or skill at all. Just mindlessly go in a flail away until the enemy stops moving right. Games that have zero challenge just do not get played period.


Not at all. the challenge needs to be adjusted accordingly.
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