Diablo® III

D3 Item Game: A Big Step Back

This is a good post, and doesn't even get in to how you can use Perfect Gems to work your way up to high runes and good items. D2 gives you lots of chances to acquire wealth; D3 seems much more in despair because of the riches of the auction house gurus :/
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How long did it take D2 to get launched? I have a better question..

How long did it take D3 to de-evolve from where D2 left off?

"Look if this game had duping like D2 then all of the best gear in the game with godly rolls would only be worth only 1 million gold"

Here is another problem with the game.. some players valuing their items based on worth rather than how they can use them. Probably before this game's itemization can be fixed at all, people have to get this notion out of their head.
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 2/4/2013 1:43 AM PST
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02/04/2013 12:52 AMPosted by ShadowAegis


Being "OP'd" doesn't mean the game can't be challenging. If you actually read what I posted then you'd realize that if players could actually become more powerful then developers would be able to actively implement more challenging content in the form of optional ubers or super bosses just as they did in Diablo 2.

For some reason people mistake difficulty for longevity and enjoyment. Diablo 2 wasn't a difficult game. It still has a following today, people still enjoy playing it. By your logic no one should be playing it because it's not hard enough; but that clearly isn't the case.

Challenge is great to have in a game when it's done right. It's important that it be paced appropriately though. People aren't interested in sitting down to play D3 for hours at a time and being thoroughly challenged the entire time. They want to build their character, struggle to improve it, but ultimately be rewarded for their time. Their goal is to be able to zone out, listen to some music; maybe watch a movie while murdering their way through plenty of monsters and not feel like their undivided attention is required at all times.

When they feel more interested in being challenged they want the option to go into higher level areas, or areas with tougher npcs (worldstone keep, nilathak runs, basically anything in act 5).

Allowing for greater character growth lets the developers implement content that is more challenging, but in doing so also more rewarding perpetuating the 'carrot' for end game-centric players.


So then by your logic I could build a game where a naked level 1 could be the highest level monster in the game right. Heck by that logic I would have 10 billion players playing for the next 10,000 years right. Look when I said zero challenge I meant zero. Where you would not have to invest a single stat/skill point if you had them to spend. You would not have to have any gear at all. Just a simple level one could do just what I said. Now tell me in reality how many players would be playing.

Why do you think that MP was put into this game if challenge is not important to a game. It was put there because it had to be in order to provide the challenge that the majority was craving. Players will walk away from a game that represents no challenge at all. That is a known fact, a fact that cannot be changed.

D2 represented a baby challenge as far as I am concerned. Sure there was a small amount of difficulty but it was just a blip on the radar.

That game used a cheesy tactic and called it challenge having monsters that were immune to certain types of attacks. That just meant you had to have a character that had different types of damage on you at all times if you wanted to solo.

Now if you keep on going in this game and get gear that is more than just decent enough to clear inferno, like I did. Then you will be mowing through the game without any challenge at all. More so when patch 1.0.7 hits the live servers.

What is the point of playing if I play through 90+% of the game and I can be doing a whole bunch of other things and still not die. It is like saying that you become so powerful that you could be in the middle of a fight. Go to answer the phone, then eat lunch, go take a bio break. About a half an hour later you come back and your character is still there and his/her health globe did not budge at all. You might love that kind of baby challenge that uses cheesy mechanics in order to represent a so called challenge. But I want more than just a baby challenge, I want a real man's challenge.


True enough, d2 wasn't really hard, but that doesn't have seem to stopped it from becoming a huge success. However, I don't see where d3 offers a real man's challenge either. Gear enough, everything becomes super easy. Look at the top players. The only thing that separates anyone from them is time/money invested in the game. The skill ceiling is laughably low. Each player only has 6 skills with a cooldown on most of them, there's very little actual skill involved in the PvE aspect of the game (can't speak for PvP). Running in circles a couple of times, avoiding ground effects, waiting on cds, rinse and repeat. If anyone thinks fighting elites in D3 is a challenge and not a grind, he or she needs to play some actually difficult games.
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100 Undead Mage
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Posts: 1,094

Whites (Commons): Sell for lots of gold (People will say gold was worthless in D2, no... It wasn't.

Whereas in D3 you basically don't even read white/blue text that dr


Would like to point out the contradiction in your argument here.

On one hand you claimed that gold was useful in D2 for gambling, but later on you say that you don't pick up most yellow drops etc.

The gambling system in D3 (the blacksmith) pretty much requires that you pick all the yellows and blues for salvaging.

Admittedly, the blacksmith is worthless at level 60 , but the archon patterns in 1.07 should surely fix this :)
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100 Undead Mage
15950
Posts: 1,094
02/04/2013 03:23 AMPosted by candlejack
True enough, d2 wasn't really hard,


Because you could portal exploit, in fact I'd say it was a requirement since monster damage (bosses) was so high you couldn't outgear...Diablo's lightning for example.

Actually...any difficulty in Diablo II was always the result of bad speccing on the part of the player. Didn't put any points in Dexterity..well now you can't kill Duriel especially if you have no frost resistance.

Diablo III didn't throw up this brick wall until the second act of Inferno, yet with Diablo II it happens with every end of act boss. Good thing about Diablo II is the items were good enough that you didn't have to spend as much time grinding.
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Agreed.
Used only during levels 1-10 and very much optional at those stages.


Wrong.
Blues get plenty of use from levels 1-40ish.
In the endgame they are valuable as materials which often sell for decent gold.


Wrong.
Extremely useful from levels 1-60.
After which they are heavily used during the early MP inferno stages.
Some yellows even offer endgame stats and so they hold a purpose at all stages of the game.


Wrong.
95% of players here have several legendary items worn.
Usually worthless? Brimstones have value.
Many of us consider 20k for a single item to be a good deal. They also have crafting benefits.


Wrong.
Not everyone is at the endgame. Poorly rolled set items are still strong because of their set benefits. In the long run people will want to upgrade them for further power but early on it's all about the bonuses.
Truly terrible ones are brimstones which have value.

The OP is posting this from an elitist standpoint.
They've clearly lost touch with the importance of items.
I'm not claiming that itemization is great...but it's not as worthless as the OP would make you think.


...............

How is he posting from an elitist standpoint..? Is the fact that most of the game is at max level an "elitist standpoint"? How is white items occasionally being used from 1-10 relevant? How is blue items occasionally being used from 10-50 relevant? This is a gear-based ARPG, with heavy emphasis on end-game (because there sure as hell isn't any reason to reroll one of the same class, which kinda blows your "but but but they're good for levelling!" nonsense out of the water).


+1 the response. Who cares if they are semi useful from 1-60. 1-60 takes total of 5-15 hours depending on skill/gear level. The argument that items are useful 1/100000000000000 of the total game is meaningless. The real game is inferno
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Item Overview In D3
Edit--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Different Manticore Drops (D3)
* 2 sockets, dex, 1401.4dps, increased crit dmg 94%, 10% attack speed (Sells immediately almost 2 billion)
* 1 socket, strength, intelliegence *throws up in mouth*, 845dps, attack speed 10%, crit dmg 66% (Doesn't sell after 1month, salvaged)


The idea is that you take the 2 billion or so from the item you sold at the AUCTION HOUSE and buy exactly what you want with it!!!!

So many players want every piece of gear they pick up to be perfect for them or be an awesome weapon just because its orange/yellow.

Diablo 3 does not work that way and will not work that way - in fact you may not realize it but if the itemization worked the way you are all wanting it to everyone would stop playing. Right now, the "adventure" for lvl 60+ characters is finding gear.

The colors are for when you are leveling your character - blue and white become useless after a certain level because thats just how it works - who give a crap if your item color value changes? does it REALLY bother you that you can't use blues/whites after a while. I mean COME ON dude.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that you sold an item on the auction hose for 2,000,000,000,000 and are COMPLAINING about the system. EVEN though YOU bought into the system enough to play it to a point where you could get that much gold from selling ONE piece of gear.

Get over you self and go to hell - to kill some demons.
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Item Overview in D2
Whites (Commons): Sell for lots of gold (People will say gold was worthless in D2, no... It wasn't. Watch someone die in a Baal run and every cockroach B-lines for the pile. Helps with repairs, buys consumables, and gambling), can be used for socketing, can be used to make rares
Gray (Ethereal): Can be used to make godly crafted weapons (RWs) or godly mercenary gear
Blues (Uncommons): Can be used to make random crafted items
Yellows (Rares): If the stars line up, you can find something better than any unique. If not, sells for a lot
Oranges (Crafted): If the stars line up, you can find something better than any unique. If not, sells for a lot
Gold (Unique): Almost always good, stats roll between exceptional and godly
Gold (Rune Words): Possibly the most inventive, creative, interesting, and fun crafting mechanics I've ever experienced in a game, why they didn't carry it over blows my mind to pieces (They were a bit OP, ok... So tone them down, problem solved). Also if you found lower more "useless" runes you could combine them and work your way up. Even the freaking useless items in D2 could be made useful, and again stats roll between exceptional and godly
Green (Sets): Most sets suck but again you know what you're getting, stats roll between exceptional and godly

I really like your post but you kinda butchered your d2 details...

Whites – High elites were good for crafting & imbue quest and they were never picked up for gold. Gold was pretty much worthless. It had like a sentimental value… That’s why it was so fun to pick up when people died because it dropped in such large lump sums.
Greys Ethereal/Sockets – These were only good for rune words and Ethereal items could roll higher DPS than anything else.
Blues – Could these even be used in crafting? I don’t ever remember crafting with blue items. I could be wrong but check your facts. And they were not called uncommons lmao… they were called magical.
Yellow – Yes, some really high end gear was typically yellow.
Orange – There were no orange items in d2 unless something has been patched in recently. Crafted items were Yellow.

Over all +1... You have my support. Thanks for highlighting the most important issue in this game (itemization).
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Item Overview in D2
Whites (Commons): Sell for lots of gold (People will say gold was worthless in D2, no... It wasn't. Watch someone die in a Baal run and every cockroach B-lines for the pile. Helps with repairs, buys consumables, and gambling), can be used for socketing, can be used to make rares
Gray (Ethereal): Can be used to make godly crafted weapons (RWs) or godly mercenary gear
Blues (Uncommons): Can be used to make random crafted items
Yellows (Rares): If the stars line up, you can find something better than any unique. If not, sells for a lot
Oranges (Crafted): If the stars line up, you can find something better than any unique. If not, sells for a lot
Gold (Unique): Almost always good, stats roll between exceptional and godly
Gold (Rune Words): Possibly the most inventive, creative, interesting, and fun crafting mechanics I've ever experienced in a game, why they didn't carry it over blows my mind to pieces (They were a bit OP, ok... So tone them down, problem solved). Also if you found lower more "useless" runes you could combine them and work your way up. Even the freaking useless items in D2 could be made useful, and again stats roll between exceptional and godly
Green (Sets): Most sets suck but again you know what you're getting, stats roll between exceptional and godly

I really like your post but you kinda butchered your d2 details...

Whites – High elites were good for crafting & imbue quest and they were never picked up for gold. Gold was pretty much worthless. It had like a sentimental value… That’s why it was so fun to pick up when people died because it dropped in such large lump sums.
Greys Ethereal/Sockets – These were only good for rune words and Ethereal items could roll higher DPS than anything else.
Blues – Could these even be used in crafting? I don’t ever remember crafting with blue items. I could be wrong but check your facts. And they were not called uncommons lmao… they were called magical.
Yellow – Yes, some really high end gear was typically yellow.
Orange – There were no orange items in d2 unless something has been patched in recently. Crafted items were Yellow.

Over all +1... You have my support. Thanks for highlighting the most important issue in this game (itemization).


He is right they are orange, the last I checked. In fact here is a quote from Arreat Summit.

Items in Orange are Crafted Items.


They have been orange for as long as I could remember.
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02/04/2013 03:23 AMPosted by candlejack
True enough, d2 wasn't really hard, but that doesn't have seem to stopped it from becoming a huge success. However, I don't see where d3 offers a real man's challenge either. Gear enough, everything becomes super easy. Look at the top players. The only thing that separates anyone from them is time/money invested in the game. The skill ceiling is laughably low. Each player only has 6 skills with a cooldown on most of them, there's very little actual skill involved in the PvE aspect of the game (can't speak for PvP). Running in circles a couple of times, avoiding ground effects, waiting on cds, rinse and repeat. If anyone thinks fighting elites in D3 is a challenge and not a grind, he or she needs to play some actually difficult games.


Sure you have some challenge, but what happens when you way out level and out gear the content. I do mean ll of the content. I do not count the uber's. So Blizz North is so lazy they could not come up with more than 2 uber challenges for a level 99 BiS geared character.

I could come up with more than that if given the time and I put in some effort. Heck I could do the same for this game. If they were to remove inferno. Then put some really crazy hard monsters for those that have really good gear. They can do this by adding in additional levels to the dugeons already there. Make a secret area for each dungeon.

Like Caverns of Frost, I would make it where it would have two extra secret levels you could find it by finding the door to it on level one. It would say danger uber challenge.

It could even be based on the secret monsters we fight that are already in the game. Where they each have their own lair with their own mobs to fight. The abilities of the monsters and the bosses would be different than what we normally run into.

I might make it where it is only available to those that are level 60.

This game does give me more of a challenge than D2. How much is something that I am not about to rate just yet. But it is more challenging than D2.
Edited by ShadowAegis#1537 on 2/4/2013 6:05 AM PST
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Challenging doesn't always translate to fun, SA. You make some good points, and I think a balance could have been struck between D2 and D3, with the best of both systems being brought into the mix. After 12 years, we kind of expected that. If D3 came out 3-4 years after D2, we should have seen an evolutoinary step, or steps, in the right direction. After this long, we should have seen evolutionary LEAPS.

The community was counting on a masterpiece, and we got a cozy fixer-upper, with no ETA of when those fixes would be in place

Those faults, those half- or no answers is what drives the hate in these forums.
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This was posted months ago, probably around 1.04, and sums this whole post up quite nicely

make sure to use your zoom

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png


It's been 8 months after launch and we still have only 4 gems to put into sockets,and all we get is another tiered gem that can't be traded.Very inspiring indeed.
Edited by ArchAngel#1943 on 2/4/2013 7:09 AM PST
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the only big feture that was missing at launch was the rune system. go QQ because even without runes d2 was much better than this "graphically amazing" game. d3 looks good, but, it's still missing a lot of substance.
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That game used a cheesy tactic and called it challenge having monsters that were immune to certain types of attacks. That just meant you had to have a character that had different types of damage on you at all times if you wanted to solo.


So your definition of 'cheesy difficulty' is immunity and your definition of legitimate difficulty is giving things much more health and a moderate amount of extra damage?

I'm not sure an argument can be won if you are that illogical. Having something take 8x as long to die doesn't make it more engaging, it makes it more tedious.

So then by your logic I could build a game where a naked level 1 could be the highest level monster in the game right. Heck by that logic I would have 10 billion players playing for the next 10,000 years right. Look when I said zero challenge I meant zero. Where you would not have to invest a single stat/skill point if you had them to spend. You would not have to have any gear at all. Just a simple level one could do just what I said. Now tell me in reality how many players would be playing.


I don't even know how to respond to your hyperbolic argument. You're either trying to troll me, or you are just so confused by what I've said that you've translated my previous posts into "MAKE ME SUPERMAN, I WANT LASER BEAM EYES PEW PEW I WANT TO BE UNKILLABLE AND I WANT THE SCREEN DIE BUTTON WITH NO CD KKKKK LOLZ"

Either way, there's no point in trying to elaborate any further on the subject. You clearly have your own opinion, more power to you. If you do think we're all wrong and that the game shouldn't be changed, doesn't that mean that you like it the way it is? If you do, why aren't you playing the game instead of spending your time arguing with us; people who aren't satisfied with the game?
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This thread is dead on. Check out my proposed item changes to fix the issue here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7811152084
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Who is the butthurt blizzard fan who reported this? Honestly. What was wrong with OP?

2 thumbs way, way up.
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02/02/2013 12:19 PMPosted by AvantGarde
D2 didn't have those features at launch


So that means D3 should suck for 10 years and then finally be awesome? All that mentality does is give Blizzard an excuse for making a less-than-stellar game. They had everything they needed in D2 to make an awesome D3. But no, they didn't do that. They started over and tried to build an entirely new game with concepts similar to D2, but an entirely different game.
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Blizzard is supposed to be working to fix the itemization problem wonder what they gonna do. Oh yeah they did it in patch 107. New crafting plans no one will use lol.
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The community was counting on a masterpiece, and we got a cozy fixer-upper, with no ETA of when those fixes would be in place

Those faults, those half- or no answers is what drives the hate in these forums.


The real tragedy is how long it's taken thus far for blizzard to release any content for the game. I think we'd all feel less frustrated if it didn't feel like the game was being maintained by 4 people.

Then again, if the staff actually consisted of 4 people then maybe they would be able to agree on a direction for the game instead of spending their time arguing about what is or isn't broken.

The developers need to sit down and play the game live right now for a few hundred hours, say 400; and then decide if they agree with the popular forum opinions before making anymore changes to the game.

Actually...any difficulty in Diablo II was always the result of bad speccing on the part of the player. Didn't put any points in Dexterity..well now you can't kill Duriel especially if you have no frost resistance.


D2's difficulty was about planning ahead. If you were retarded then I guess the game would seem very difficult. If you actually knew what spec you were going to use ahead of time and had most of the gear already in your stash then you wouldn't have much trouble until hell.

In hell certain areas would be difficult no matter what. Who here didn't dread farming Ni'lathak for keys to farm torches? Even if you were good, there was a sound chance you were going to die to corpse explosion. Freeing Arya in hell? Ugh, glooms and stygians; the horror.

Diablo III didn't throw up this brick wall until the second act of Inferno, yet with Diablo II it happens with every end of act boss. Good thing about Diablo II is the items were good enough that you didn't have to spend as much time grinding


D3 isn't difficult anymore. There is no 'brick wall'. You seem to be talking about D3 pre-patch, when everything was absurd.

True enough, d2 wasn't really hard, but that doesn't have seem to stopped it from becoming a huge success. However, I don't see where d3 offers a real man's challenge either. Gear enough, everything becomes super easy. Look at the top players. The only thing that separates anyone from them is time/money invested in the game. The skill ceiling is laughably low. Each player only has 6 skills with a cooldown on most of them, there's very little actual skill involved in the PvE aspect of the game (can't speak for PvP). Running in circles a couple of times, avoiding ground effects, waiting on cds, rinse and repeat. If anyone thinks fighting elites in D3 is a challenge and not a grind, he or she needs to play some actually difficult games.


Agreed. D2 was a mish-mash of very easy, impossible because you couldn't break their immunities, and challenging for various reasons (the life leech and all resist hit in hell, immunities, the spike in AR requirement).

Anyone that thinks the allure of either game is the challenge is in denial. Maybe they like feeling like unique snowflakes because they are doing mp10 ubers; it makes them feel accomplished. Everyone can't do it, surely it must be their skill that allows them to do it. It couldn't be gear.

Both games are about exploiting ways to conquer things that gave you a hard time. Different skill combos, different classes, different ways to deal damage, different equipment. Main difference being in D2 you were rewarded for starting over because you could refine what you did the previous time. You swap your gear over, or you find a whole new set from easily farmed areas and then give it to your new character regardless of what class they are.

In D3 you're punished if you want to start over. Instead of having all your MF gear; blizzard wisely did away with the need for MF gear. But now our MF is tied to our paragon level. Start a new character? Well say goodbye to all your MF. You want to farm an area with a new class; but by choosing to do that you effectively just started from scratch. You'll be able to farm the area, but you'll have to spend 2x-3x as long to actually start seeing a benefit.
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