Diablo® III

Why barbs are OP (after leveling all classes to 60)

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@GChiu, @Forelle

Are you really oblivious to the fact that char sheet dps means absolutely nothing in comparison to real dps? I'll give you 10mil gold to find a video of a DH, Wiz, or WD doing azmodan mp10 in less than 10seconds. You can't do it, because no other class gets even close to that REAL DPS. Hell, I dont think you'll be able to find a ranged do azmo MP10 in under 20seconds(over twice the barb record).

Well, it's a barb, right? Why should a barb kite? Maybe only if he is not prepared for the mp level he chose. CC immunity is necessary since he has to tank. He can not kite away and do damage from distance because he is not ranged. It makes sense to me.


I'm not asking for barbs to have to kite, although I'd argue they are VERY good at kiting due to their nados trailing behind them. I'm saying that they should either have to deal with the affixes like the rest of us, or do less damage. Right now they get the best of both worlds. They out-gun glass cannons by a long shot and are the tankiest class in the game.

Naturally, DHs have much higher DPS than barbs so that DH benefit much more from LS than barbs do.


Again, you're basing your entire argument over the completely false assumption that char sheet dps is a meaningful metric when comparing classes. The reality is that barbs actually benefit significantly more from lifesteal because they have higher effective dps.

As for lifesteal, DHs can get even more LS:
3% on weapons (6% if dual wielding) + 15% on Gloom + 3% Nether Tentacles = 23%
Whereas Barbs:
3% on weapons (6% if dual wielding) + 3% belt + 3% Bloodthirst + 9% Rend-Bloodlust = 21%


Are you seriously trying to compare a Dual wielding DH using NT and gloom to the passive lifesteal of a barb? NT kills your dps, rend boosts it. Dual wield on a DH kills your dps, while dual wielding on a barb is actually the highest effective dps build in the game... and gloom is an active skill that DOES NO DAMAGE AND COSUMES RESOURCES. You are out of your mind to try and argue that is better than barb lifesteal.

Just compare vault ToC to run with the wind. Both skills are mobility skills. Run with the wind can do a huge amount of damage in a run. Vault? Hell no, they nerf the !@#$ out of that because mobility skills weren't supposed to be heavy damage dealers. There is a huge double standard when class changes are made.
Edited by Atomize#1137 on 2/7/2013 1:04 PM PST
Hi Atomize,

Yes I do compare skills and gear, simply to show what is available and possible, not that you have to use it on your character. For instance, there are barbs who don't use LS belt but Witching Hour. So, I just wanted to show that a DH can reach a good amount of LS even without that mighty LL belt, which is only meant for barbs.

To compare a DH with a barb in general, skill-wise, is really difficult since they are different classes with a very different play style.

Run like the wind could be used for kiting. I haven't thought about it. lol However, DHs have lots of kiting skills because they are meant to kite, except you have a very tanky DH build (which is possible, too).

Btw, Rend and Sprint consume resources, too.

As it goes for the DPS, I have read that it is very hard to compare real DPS. I can just tell from DiabloPorgress that barbs are definitely not leading DPS-wise. More I cannot tell.
As it goes for the DPS, I have read that it is very hard to compare real DPS. I can just tell from DiabloPorgress that barbs are definitely not leading DPS-wise. More I cannot tell.


How can you say that? These meaningless numbers are higher than these other meaningless numbers... So barbs must have low dps! Please, show me an instance of this insane ranged damage that barbs cannot beat in practice.

As it goes for the DPS, I have read that it is very hard to compare real DPS. I can just tell from DiabloPorgress that barbs are definitely not leading DPS-wise. More I cannot tell.


It's pretty well known the eDPS (effective dps) is lot higher for a barb than a DH with the same paper doll dps.
02/06/2013 05:25 PMPosted by Waitubold
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary.

I don't think you have to worry about anyone nerfing your Barb, since Blizzard seem to have finally gotten the message that nerfs are always received negatively: 1.07's attempt at building build diversity involved buffing "underused" skills & runes, but didn't (directly) nerf any of their most-used counterparts for simply being popular, as had happened repeatedly in previous patches.

Nobody wants to spoil your fun, and if any of the devs speak of nerfing your class, we'll have your back, don't worry about that.


But play a wizard. I'm making the other classes but my main is a wizard. I do appreciate the back up lol
*YAWN*

How can you say that? These meaningless numbers are higher than these other meaningless numbers... So barbs must have low dps! Please, show me an instance of this insane ranged damage that barbs cannot beat in practice.


I can say that because I mean it. I cannot compare real DPS myself.

Btw, as I did the LS calculation, I didn't consider Blood Moon, which gives even 10% more. Just to mention it.
I can say that because I mean it. I cannot compare real DPS myself.


There's a ton vids online of people competing for highest dps on various bosses, I offered you 10m(probably more than any piece of your gear) to prove this dps advantage that ranged classes have over melee ones single target, and you just dodge the topic instead of linking a video. Seems to me you're full of !@#$.

Also, your addition to the lifesteal debate is pretty irrelevant, given that it's an active skill that uses disc(very important for mobility) as opposed to a constant passive or affix on a piece of gear.
Edited by Atomize#1137 on 2/7/2013 2:59 PM PST

There's a ton vids online of people competing for highest dps on various bosses, I offered you 10m(probably more than any piece of your gear) to prove this dps advantage that ranged classes have over melee ones single target, and you just dodge the topic instead of linking a video. Seems to me you're full of !@#$. .


Wow, now you get really personal. Why that?
I said I cannot compare because I cannot. And watching videos wouldn't give me the answer, either. Probably best would be to find a DH and a barb (or any other class) with similar DPS according to DiabloProgress, let them fight the same boss at same mp level, and measure their time they need to get him down. But still this would depend a lot on their cc (which has to do with some luck), and skills they chose. Well, I am not an expert and cannot take it to that level. But please don't start to insult me when I try to be sincere with you and tell you that I cannot. To be honest, I tried to find the 10s-barb-video and didn't even find that one.


Also, your addition to the lifesteal debate is pretty irrelevant, given that it's an active skill that uses disc(very important for mobility) as opposed to a constant passive or affix on a piece of gear.

Well, I just wanted to make aware of the possibilities, not even to start a debate on it. If you find them irrelevant for this or that reason,... well.

Wow, thanks for that! But I would say that my shoulders cost me less than a million. I bought them when I was leveling, and never changed them (about level 50 I would say). They were really cheap. For the amulet, I'm pretty sure I found it, cause I never paid that much for it for sure.


You're welcome.
Yes, I guessed so that you found some good gear in game, and some good deals in AH.


I updated my first post if you guys want to check that out. I changed my point of view a bit!


Nice to read that you gave your DH and WD a try at MP8, and with some success.
[quote]
Probably best would be to find a DH and a barb (or any other class) with similar DPS according to DiabloProgress, let them fight the same boss at same mp level, and measure their time they need to get him down.


The world record for MP10 azmodan kill is from a barb. I don't think any other class has come close to it.
02/06/2013 09:10 PMPosted by bearr
Certainly, if the DH couldn't kite as easily, and wasn't such a dps cannon then maybe I could see some validity to what a few of you claim.


But with a barb, you can achieve all that for just 10mil it seems. That's the gap that got me wondering.


You must not have read my economics lesson in that post, it's more towards the top. However, in the most remedial of ways so you can even understand, this is how it works:

Supply and demand tells us that:

More barbs = More barb gear.
More barb gear = more supply than demand
More supply than demand = cheaper costs

THEREFORE, we can conclude that it's easier to obtain gear on a budget as a barb. This doesn't mean that Barbs are, "OP". It could just possibly mean that because people who play other classes sell gear at a higher price because their is less supply and high demand.
(Barney level economics, it's not that hard to understand)

I'm not a D3 expert, you can look at my DH and let me know how, "bad" I am. Certainly though, I don't believe i'm doing horrible for spending less than your claimed 50 Million on gear pieces alone.

In the auction house, just because X-Amulet costs 100Mil doesn't mean that it's better than the one on page 20 that costs 3 Mil. Utilizing your search criteria, as well as having patience can mitigate having to spend so much on gear.

[quote="78100603797"]Barb is tank class. Sure, you can buff to 190K DPS with skills et al. Going north of 250K DPS is extremely expensive just like other classes. Classes with the highest DPS are WZ and DH. I see +200K DPS WZ and DH everywhere, even at low plvl, and I am still struggling below 200K DPS with plvl51. Come on now, you know what you are getting into when you chose your character. Tank, DPS, and those rare few that have the godly gears to have the best of both worlds, with any class.[/quote]

GC hits it on the head, but we'll still have people complain about how something is too OP simply because they are not willing to put fourth the adequate resources (time and/or/ money) to attain the best of both worlds.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDgwMjYyNDk2.html is the video.

Probably best would be to find a DH and a barb (or any other class) with similar DPS according to DiabloProgress, let them fight the same boss at same mp level, and measure their time they need to get him down.


There is plenty of vods from top players of most of the classes going for speedkills. It's not a matter of the videos not existing, it's a matter of faster kill times by other classes with equivalent gear being impossible.

If I sound hostile, it's simply because it's annoying to see people cling to illogical ideas for no apparent reason. I mean... by the same logic you could claim the earth is flat, and point out all sorts of personal experiences that tell you that the earth really is flat. However, when you take a step back and look at the whole situation, despite your own experiences telling you otherwise, the earth is obviously not flat, and it's absurd to argue that it is.
Edited by Atomize#1137 on 2/7/2013 5:12 PM PST
lolzz. enough of this. barbs are OP compared to the other 4 classes. to say otherwise is denial, or ignorance.

/thread

More barbs = More barb gear.
More barb gear = more supply than demand
More supply than demand = cheaper costs


According to my logic it goes:
More barbs = More barb gear needed to equip the barbs
More barb gear needed = More demand than supply
...

But well, I was already told that I cling to illogical ideas... :-S
Jay Wilson played a barb.
Are you really oblivious to the fact that char sheet dps means absolutely nothing in comparison to real dps? I'll give you 10mil gold to find a video of a DH, Wiz, or WD doing azmodan mp10 in less than 10seconds. You can't do it, because no other class gets even close to that REAL DPS. Hell, I dont think you'll be able to find a ranged do azmo MP10 in under 20seconds(over twice the barb record).


There's a ton vids online of people competing for highest dps on various bosses, I offered you 10m(probably more than any piece of your gear) to prove this dps advantage that ranged classes have over melee ones single target, and you just dodge the topic instead of linking a video. Seems to me you're full of !@#$.


Are you really oblivious to the fact that we are quoting the most recognized stats that is used in this game? You keep asking us to show proof. We have shown you a list of 50K+ players on a well recognized website, using the most recognized stats. All you've got is a few Barbs that have insane gears on. You really think that represents the Barbs population?

You can't seriously believe that when Barbs are so OP, only 5 of them ended up on the top 100 list on: http://diablostats.com, and the first one that shows up is on page 2. As I mentioned in my prior post, you are taking a few outliers that have godly gears to generalize a population of Barbs that are simply grinding through just like ranged classes. Those Barbs that can kill the bosses in mere seconds aren't $10M builds. Is that so hard to understand?
02/07/2013 08:30 PMPosted by GChiu
As I mentioned in my prior post, you are taking a few outliers that have godly gears to generalize a population of Barbs that are simply grinding through just like ranged classes. Those Barbs that can kill the bosses in mere seconds aren't $10M builds. Is that so hard to understand?


Except the other classes with godly gear tried to compete with barbs in speed boss kills. And they all failed. There is a difference between paper doll dps and effective dps in battle. Barbs just happen to have the greatest magnifying factor to go from the former to the latter. No to mention their survivability in high MPs, so they're getting the best from both defensive and offensive aspects. I rolled a barb for precisely that reason, and I'm not gonna be hypocritical to deny I'm enjoying those benefits of that class.
As I mentioned in my prior post, you are taking a few outliers that have godly gears to generalize a population of Barbs that are simply grinding through just like ranged classes. Those Barbs that can kill the bosses in mere seconds aren't $10M builds. Is that so hard to understand?


Except the other classes with godly gear tried to compete with barbs in speed boss kills. And they all failed. There is a difference between paper doll dps and effective dps in battle. Barbs just happen to have the greatest magnifying factor to go from the former to the latter. No to mention their survivability in high MPs, so they're getting the best from both defensive and offensive aspects. I rolled a barb for precisely that reason, and I'm not gonna be hypocritical to deny I'm enjoying those benefits of that class.


QFT.

I don't mind that Barb's are OP. I wish the other classes were buffed to where Barb's are.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying other classes suck. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. But by and large, the Barbarian is the most well-rounded class.
Edited by Tommerbob#1808 on 2/7/2013 9:34 PM PST
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