Diablo® III

Why barbs are OP (after leveling all classes to 60)

(Locked)

Barbs are only good because of WotB. Lifesteal on a belt is unnecessary at high dps, it can be switched to a witching hour for a huge dps gain. The only thing that makes them good is the permanent CC immunity and the bonus movespeed. They kill just as fast as any other class as far as I've seen, even in MP10. Every class has its pros and cons, but I believe they are all fairly balanced aside from WotB.
Edited by Skorpse#1663 on 2/5/2013 10:43 PM PST
Complain much? If you think barb is to OP then play a different class or quit complaining. I've spent like a few hundred mil on mine to finally be able to MP10 somewhat effeciently. It still takes forever and is only for key runs. Why are you calling for more freakin nerfs? If anything you should be asking for buffs to the other classes you like so they can do mp10.

WoTB isn't even needed except for mp10 ubers.
Edited by Joemama#1866 on 2/5/2013 10:49 PM PST
I also have all classes leveled and I can tell you its not that Barbs are op ... its that they require very little gear to farm at a reasonable speed on lower mp's ... if I could have a class with max gear I would pick Wizard ... they farm mp10 as fast as barbs farm mp5 .

If you can't clear keep depths 2 in 5 minutes that's not doing.


Youre giving him 5 minutes? why so long ... give him like 2 minutes before it would become better to farm mp7. I can farm mp10 on my crap geared character ... it also takes 150 times longer than mp5.... if only blizz was improving the mf per mp next patch would i ever bother taking all that time.


Well, I just recorded my barb killing a pack in 1 min 30 at MP8. But in your definition of what is doing, I can't do it, it seems. I could never clear a level in 5 minutes at that speed. That was not the point I was trying to make, but still. My WD or DH could NEVER farm MP8 with better gear than my barb. They would just die in a few seconds. My barb doesn't die, and it kills packs pretty much easily. It just takes a little less than 2 minutes, like I said before.
I also have all classes leveled and I can tell you its not that Barbs are op ... its that they require very little gear to farm at a reasonable speed on lower mp's ... if I could have a class with max gear I would pick Wizard ... they farm mp10 as fast as barbs farm mp5 .



Youre giving him 5 minutes? why so long ... give him like 2 minutes before it would become better to farm mp7. I can farm mp10 on my crap geared character ... it also takes 150 times longer than mp5.... if only blizz was improving the mf per mp next patch would i ever bother taking all that time.


Well, I just recorded my barb killing a pack in 1 min 30 at MP8. But in your definition of what is doing, I can't do it, it seems. I could never clear a level in 5 minutes at that speed. That was not the point I was trying to make, but still. My WD or DH could NEVER farm MP8 with better gear than my barb. They would just die in a few seconds. My barb doesn't die, and it kills packs pretty much easily. It just takes a little less than 2 minutes, like I said before.


So I'm not sure why your calling for a nerf on barbs? why are you not calling for buffs for your WD and DH? The fact that you can kill a pack in 1 min and 30 seconds in mp 8 is not really anything special even with cheap gear. Its all about farming mp0 or 1 as fast as possible or being able to do mp10 ubers effeciently which I highly doubt you could do with your current setup.
So I'm not sure why your calling for a nerf on barbs? why are you not calling for buffs for your WD and DH? The fact that you can kill a pack in 1 min and 30 seconds in mp 8 is not really anything special even with cheap gear. Its all about farming mp0 or 1 as fast as possible or being able to do mp10 ubers effeciently which I highly doubt you could do with your current setup.


Really? I never talked about nerfing anything. Don't mistake what others say for what I said. It was just a fact I was pointing, that barbs are really powerful compared to other classes.

Killing things in MP8 is not special? I can't do it with my DH or my WD, and their gear is 4 to 5-6 times more expensive.

I only play at MP8 for fun and for keys. Most of the time, I whirlwind through MP1, or vault with my DH, and it's very efficient.
I also have all classes leveled and I can tell you its not that Barbs are op ... its that they require very little gear to farm at a reasonable speed on lower mp's ... if I could have a class with max gear I would pick Wizard ... they farm mp10 as fast as barbs farm mp5 .



Youre giving him 5 minutes? why so long ... give him like 2 minutes before it would become better to farm mp7. I can farm mp10 on my crap geared character ... it also takes 150 times longer than mp5.... if only blizz was improving the mf per mp next patch would i ever bother taking all that time.


Well, I just recorded my barb killing a pack in 1 min 30 at MP8. But in your definition of what is doing, I can't do it, it seems. I could never clear a level in 5 minutes at that speed. That was not the point I was trying to make, but still. My WD or DH could NEVER farm MP8 with better gear than my barb. They would just die in a few seconds. My barb doesn't die, and it kills packs pretty much easily. It just takes a little less than 2 minutes, like I said before.


To be honest Id agree that WD and DH need some redesign a many skills so long as the throughput doesn't change ... barbs dont deal more damage than half the classes but I do agree their survivability takes them a great farther for very little in terms of gold.

WHAT I WANT ... is for every class to be able to farm as fast as the wizard Avoidlol does in Mp10. Problem is blizzard's d3 is falling apart so badly they don't even know there are 5 billion problems with the auction house right now ... signaling to me they are not capable of a redesign capable of what I want.
WoTB build isn't even the best farming build... it's the only way to survive in mp 5+ and ubers.

fastest barb farming build doesn't even use wotb that op claims is op lol

every class can farm fast and do ubers with good gear.
Edited by momonami5#1405 on 2/5/2013 11:25 PM PST
02/05/2013 11:13 PMPosted by bearr
So I'm not sure why your calling for a nerf on barbs? why are you not calling for buffs for your WD and DH? The fact that you can kill a pack in 1 min and 30 seconds in mp 8 is not really anything special even with cheap gear. Its all about farming mp0 or 1 as fast as possible or being able to do mp10 ubers effeciently which I highly doubt you could do with your current setup.


Really? I never talked about nerfing anything. Don't mistake what others say for what I said. It was just a fact I was pointing, that barbs are really powerful compared to other classes.

Killing things in MP8 is not special? I can't do it with my DH or my WD, and their gear is 4 to 5-6 times more expensive.

I only play at MP8 for fun and for keys. Most of the time, I whirlwind through MP1, or vault with my DH, and it's very efficient.


So then what do you want? All your doing is complaining that a certain barb build that you made can do higher mp's than your more expensive characters. And really spending 50mil on a character is nothing. If you spent like 400-500 mil on your dh or wd I bet they would be able to mp8 better than your 10mil barb. So whats the point of the thread if not to bash on one character?
02/05/2013 11:24 PMPosted by Joemama


Really? I never talked about nerfing anything. Don't mistake what others say for what I said. It was just a fact I was pointing, that barbs are really powerful compared to other classes.

Killing things in MP8 is not special? I can't do it with my DH or my WD, and their gear is 4 to 5-6 times more expensive.

I only play at MP8 for fun and for keys. Most of the time, I whirlwind through MP1, or vault with my DH, and it's very efficient.


So then what do you want? All your doing is complaining that a certain barb build that you made can do higher mp's than your more expensive characters. And really spending 50mil on a character is nothing. If you spent like 400-500 mil on your dh or wd I bet they would be able to mp8 better than your 10mil barb. So whats the point of the thread if not to bash on one character?


Maybe he's simply making a comment on his own observations of class balance (or lack thereof). This is a discussion forum after all. People do tend to share their views. Is that such a novel idea these days?

ePeen? OP is asking for a nerf to the class im currently enjoying playing with, from what I've read, a lack of proper reasoning.


Well, it would seem you haven't read properly or maybe you didn't read every post. The OP never suggested a nerf of any kind.


I've only played Wiz and Barb, so I can't comment on other classes, but as far as the act of simply "killing", as you are referring, my Wiz was MUCH easier to kill on high MP. It isn't hard fighting frozen statues!!


How much gold did you need to spend to "easily fight frozen statues" and what is the ratio of gold spent on your barb to kill those same monsters? According to the OP and his observations, there is a discrepancy.


Yes, WW barbs can be made fairly cheap and they are great for farming but the traditional ww build isnt great for much else. Hota/Rend is better for ubers.


Well seeing as 90% of this game is farming loot...hmmm....and it's a good thing D3 allows for skill changes.


Other builds are better for PVP. Should people start making threads asking for WD nerfs since they are doing great in PVP for less gold than a barb?

Because there are so many rewards killing in PvP...


All in all, the Barb is a melee class, and as such, should have higher survivability. You SHOULD be able to survive more with a class that has to get next to an enemy to deal damage instead of use spells from afar.


Because a DH is never ever right up to monsters. That's right, I forgot those Hulking Phase Beasts only TP onto barbs and no one else. The same goes for every other fast or teleporting monster/elite pack with those affixes (or naturally present).

Again, read the entire thread, the OP isn't suggesting barbs are OP. He's only saying he's observed a class imbalance in regards to cost associated with MP level abilities.

That said, the OP's choice of title was a little off (which he corrected himself) and my response to the OP is: "Yeah, that's pretty much been like that for a while now. Nothing new to see here.".
Edited by Thanos#1268 on 2/6/2013 12:27 AM PST
02/06/2013 12:16 AMPosted by Thanos
People do tend to share their views. Is that such a novel idea these days?


Yes ... because people are afraid Blizzard is too retarded to know a noob from someone with an informed opinion to the point where they change the game to be more noob friendly ... like how i was pleasantly farming inferno act 3 2 weeks after the game came out and for some reason they decided to nerf what was already easy.

Precedence is a sturdy foundation for a healthy phobia.
I have had a considerable amount of experience playing and learning each class. All my characters are capable of high MP. If I gear and spec for high MP with every character, they all have roughly equivalent gear value (Barb - WW/HotA; DH - Bola/EB; Monk - Cyclone w/ Combo; WD - 0Dogs; Wiz - SNS). The distinction, however, is very clear in high MP. My Barb wins in both farming speed and survivability.

At low MP however, he is outmatched in speed by my Monk (TR), DH (Legacy Nat's with Bola/CA or Strafe), and Wiz (Archon). If I run Bears with my WD and spec/gear for speed farming, he's still just as fast as my Barb. However, I have also geared all my characters to a similar extent, so differences are evened out at low levels. I can say though, that my Barb reached a high efficiency level earlier on in character progression (i.e., with less gold) compared to the rest, but only due to the efficiency of the WW build. However, this experiences diminishing returns with increasing DPS, as it becomes harder to generate Fury when monsters die too quickly. His efficiency is going to reach a drop off eventually, but such a problem does not exist for the other classes.

What this all tells me is that Blizzard has done a decent job of balancing out the classes for the end game, but it's ultimately the result of three factors that Barbs have the clear advantage in almost all other areas: 1) CC Immunity from WotB 2) Blizzard did not anticipate the WW build that came to be; 3) the game poor end-game itemization and Inferno design at launch.

Number one is self-explanatory so I won't address that, but going back to what I said above, the way the WW build works right now seems like a dumb mechanic if you look at the big picture: the more powerful your character becomes, the less effective the build becomes. The way the build works is also part of the reason why Alkaizer leveled as effectively as he did (and also his farming strategy of course). If I remember correctly, his DPS during the grind to 100 was no higher than 75-80K DPS unbuffed, which, though relatively high by standards at the time, was by no means top tier even then. He was able to do it by finding the perfect balance between killing efficiency and Fury maintenance. Or maybe he was just lucky that his DPS was exactly where it needed to be. Either way, it seems apparent to me that Blizzard didn't anticipate a combination of skills being used in such a build.

Monster Power helps because high monster health allows WW Barbs with higher DPS to maintain regular Fury generation. With the exception of the WD, all other classes can benefit from improved resource generation due to increased monster health, but the ones that benefit the most are the Barb and the Wiz due to the speed of Sprint (RltW) and Energy Twister ticks, respectively. However, not only do Barbs benefit in resource management, they also benefit greatly in survivability in a way that surpasses Wizards.

A WW Barb's main form of life return lies in life steal once they reach a certain DPS whereas a CM Wizard's main form of life return lies in life on hit, as their boundary of effectiveness for life steal over life on hit has a much higher DPS requirement. This is partly because of lower possible crit damage for a CM Wiz compared to a WW Barb versus frequency of attacks, and also because of the maximum possible life steal attainable on both characters (12% Barb vs. 4.5% Wiz). Because of this, it's just not worth using life steal with a CM Wiz. Due to the difference, Wizards are stuck at a flat rate of life return independent of DPS, while Barbs gain more life with increasing DPS. On top of that, Barbs have the highest attainable life steal from gear because of Bloodthirst and mighty belts. Monks get 6%, WDs get 3%, and DHs get 6% (though it doesn't matter because of SP).

Because Blizzard didn't anticipate the WW build we have now, I suspect their original intention with giving the Barb additional life steal was because most of their skills focus on single target damage with a low area of effect compared to the other character classes and they needed it to compensate for life return versus large mobs. A wealth of good defensive passives was likely given to the Barb for that very same reason.

Additionally, Blizzard most likely did not originally anticipate DPS and crit numbers reaching the height that they're at now to have an effective gauge on life steal's potential. This is a mistake that arose as a result of poor end-game itemization for an Inferno mode that was too difficult when the game was released. Legendaries and sets got boosted because of this, and Inferno subsequently got several nerfs. Even higher possible DPS numbers were made possible in the form of increased ilvl 61+ drops with the implementation of Monster Power levels. With vastly improved DPS, the effectiveness of life steal was also boosted. The powerful passives given to Barbs in conjunction with high life steal and the overall reduced damage dealt by monsters in Inferno afforded them the ability to sacrifice defensive gear stats for greater DPS. This is also the reason why even non-WW builds such as Rend/HotA still possess a great level of effectiveness at high MP.

TL;DR: Other than WotB, Barbs have an unfair gear cost advantage because when Blizzard designed their skills, they did not have something like the WW/Sprint build in mind, but instead designed the class around low AoE builds. The gap between Barbs and the other classes only widened as a result of poor end-game itemization for Inferno at launch and its subsequent fixes.
So what your telling us OP, is that you did well gearing out the barb, but failed at gearing the other classes?
02/06/2013 03:21 AMPosted by RagingKoala
So what your telling us OP, is that you did well gearing out the barb, but failed at gearing the other classes?


I'd like to hear what I failed please? (I'm still working on gearing my monk and wizard) And it's harder to gear 5 characters than to gear just one, as you do not want godly, but good ratio of good quality and price.

02/06/2013 12:16 AMPosted by Thanos
Maybe he's simply making a comment on his own observations of class balance (or lack thereof). This is a discussion forum after all. People do tend to share their views. Is that such a novel idea these days?


Thanks for your comment!

And thanks Thanos and Umbra for great posts!
OP is a moron... /thread

2min per elite pack is probably the most retarded thing ive ever hear. so u can survive but it takes u the entire WOTB cooldown to kill one elite packs? i would never play this game if it took me that long.

you say barbs are "OP".. do u suggest barbs armor and defenses be reduced? cause last time i checked barbs and monks are the only classes that are actually for melee. so obviously it would make sense for those classes to have better defenses. monks dont necessarily have high defenses but they have 123091278390127319873 heals. OP is an idiot
OP is a moron... /thread

2min per elite pack is probably the most retarded thing ive ever hear. so u can survive but it takes u the entire WOTB cooldown to kill one elite packs? i would never play this game if it took me that long.

you say barbs are "OP".. do u suggest barbs armor and defenses be reduced? cause last time i checked barbs and monks are the only classes that are actually for melee. so obviously it would make sense for those classes to have better defenses. monks dont necessarily have high defenses but they have 123091278390127319873 heals. OP is an idiot


Funny how the ones that understand that I want the barbs to be nerfed always write stupid post, insulting and stuff. This is a discussion about something I noticed. Read the previous posts before commenting like you did.
OP is a moron... /thread

2min per elite pack is probably the most retarded thing ive ever hear. so u can survive but it takes u the entire WOTB cooldown to kill one elite packs? i would never play this game if it took me that long.

you say barbs are "OP".. do u suggest barbs armor and defenses be reduced? cause last time i checked barbs and monks are the only classes that are actually for melee. so obviously it would make sense for those classes to have better defenses. monks dont necessarily have high defenses but they have 123091278390127319873 heals. OP is an idiot


Please learn how to read.
Thanks for starting this excellent thread, bearr. Monk players have been posting about our class's problems for a while, but it's good to have impartial confirmation from someone folks who have played all of the classes so extensively -- I was starting to doubt my own sanity for a sec, there.

I really don't want Blizzard to nerf Barbarians, or in any way reduce the fun of those that play Barbs. I just want Blizzard to properly balance the other classes by comparison, so that we can all have just as much fun.
02/05/2013 09:21 AMPosted by DamageInc
Diablo 3 is a PvE game. PvP is, and always will be an unbalanced tacked on mini game.

I agree that PvE is the core of any ARPG, but I think that many, many players hope your prediction about D3's PvP offerings turns out to be wrong. Blizzard do need to finish developing and balancing PvE, but they promised PvP, and should do a proper job of that, too. D2 managed to satisfy in both areas, so we know that it's possible, and D3's combat engine was designed from the ground up with multiplayer in mind -- if anything, D3 should be more than capable of handling both, not less.
This topic is locked.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]