Diablo® III

Why barbs are OP (after leveling all classes to 60)

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You cannot say its cheaper to gear a Barb to strengthen your point that Barbs are OP or too strong or whatever. The class is not responsible for how much REAL people place value into those items on the Auction House whether it be real money or gold.

There is also no way to verify the amount of gold you spent on ur barb in total, so your forcing us to take your word for it so to speak. So to conclude, your points, although mildly thought out, lack a lot of credibility. So I hereby rule that your stance on Barbs is subjective and NOT to be taken literally or at all.


Barb gear is NOT cheap. Just because someone can gear a char for 10m (questionable figure also, but that's for another time), and kill some monsters very slowly at some higher mp levels proves nothing. When you start really gearing your char to run higher mp levels with some speed is when you'll discover that your initial "cheap" concept in regards to gear, goes out the window in a hurry.

A question for those that say it's cheap. How much would you expect to pay for my helm, chest armor, and belt? Got an answer? Ok, you're wrong, and look it up on the AH to prove gear ISN'T cheap.
The problem is resource regeneration. Barbs have infinite while other classes have no way to sustain infinite resource regeneration.

For example Witch Doctors would be more than viable in mp10 if we didnt run out of mana. Even with full mana regen from items and vision quest we still cant hold our mana for the rediculouse life mp10 monsters have. Yeah we can cast rain dance but it has a 120 sec cooldown.

So in short to make other classes viable at high MP we need to find ways to give end game characters near infinite mana while still taking skill to maintain that mana much like the WW barb does.
Edited by TimeSpike#1874 on 2/6/2013 3:02 PM PST
Btw, for an "underpowered" monk class, I don't know why my monk farms experience, and legendaries quicker than my barb with tempest rush up 100% of the time (no cooldowns, or spirit issues if you know what you're doing). Maybe most of the monks out there just don't know how to gear, or what skills to use in order to farm efficiently. Maybe this is the issue with all the other classes that people are complaining about. Hmm ...


Your monk does have some serious spirit issues. Was kind of surprised when I took a look at it and why you thought it better than your barb. Then I took a look at the DPS on your barb and his equipment, not really made for farming...
Anyway, my monk beats you all at farming with a TR build in MP0 so technically he's probably the "best" farmer. Problem here is that MP0 is still the best difficulty to farm in. They should improve higher MP, and then my monk would really fall short.

Reason why monk is extremely good at farming MP0 is that it's all about running fast and with TR monk can become the fastest running class. It's that simple. But running speed is about the only area where the monk is superior to other classes, at least DH and Barb which I've both played to paragon 25+ so I do at least have a bit of insight.

For reference as I play on EU servers http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Faffner-1572/hero/357121
The problem is resource regeneration. Barbs have infinite while other classes have no way to sustain infinite resource regeneration.

For example Witch Doctors would be more than viable in mp10 if we didnt run out of mana. Even with full mana regen from items and vision quest we still cant hold our mana for the rediculouse life mp10 monsters have. Yeah we can cast rain dance but it has a 120 sec cooldown.

So in short to make other classes viable at high MP we need to find ways to give end game characters near infinite mana while still taking skill to maintain that mana much like the WW barb does.


Disagree. Barbs don't even use most of our fury as WW, we literally waste 90% of it. The whole point of the build is to have enough fury gain to maintain WOTB and sprint (which requires around 20-25 fury per second). Most WW barbs just end up spamming battle rage/sprint so we don't cap out on fury (fury gained over the cap doesn't add to our WOTB duration).

As for the CC immunity, I can understand complaints about that. Having a high uptime on CC immunity is pretty strong in PVE, but in PVP it's impossible to maintain.

When I leveled my wiz to 60, I watched a budget CM/WW build guide. For less than 3m the guy built a CM/WW set, zoned into keep3 MP10, freezelocked and killed an elite pack. It took him a couple of minutes, just like the OP in this thread. As for comparing how much more CM/WW costs to gear at a high level than WW barb, it's because IAS is expensive. For WW you can totally get away with 4 slots of IAS + an Echoing Fury. For CM? IIRC the minimum is like 7 slots + Chantodo's.

TLDR: People don't know much about the game complaining about some other class they don't understand.
02/06/2013 02:31 PMPosted by LocoMagic
Well I guess I must be useless at this game, I've spent about 300mil on gear for my barb and I cannot keep wotb up or farm anything greater than mp5 comfortably. I don't use wotb because its always on cooldown when I really need it.


Everything is easier, cheaper, faster, and better when someone else is doing it. I don't understand the difficulty when there are 5B+ gold geared players streaming how it's done all the time. lol

Btw, for an "underpowered" monk class, I don't know why my monk farms experience, and legendaries quicker than my barb with tempest rush up 100% of the time (no cooldowns, or spirit issues if you know what you're doing). Maybe most of the monks out there just don't know how to gear, or what skills to use in order to farm efficiently. Maybe this is the issue with all the other classes that people are complaining about. Hmm ...


The Monk is a bit "underpowered". They have the least amount of passives and are locked into 2 functional builds with slight variability in each. Because of the design flaws of Inna's set, Monks have a harder time maintaining a good balance between resists and life than the other classes. Stacking single resists for OWE is required for the vast majority of Monk players because of this balance issue. It should not work that way. None of this matters once you're at the end game, but for those who are building up to that point, it's a bumpier road than the others.

Tempest Rush is getting buffed, but for now, it's a niche build that is only efficient at MP0 and MP1, which is great for farming right now, but what about after the scaling of MP experience in 1.07? I haven't had the time to test it out on the PTR yet, but I would venture to say that 155% weapon damage isn't anywhere near enough for a high MP build, not with its reliance on low APS.
I enjoy all the classes, they all have their own feel and strengths.

They all have a fast low MP farming spec:

Barb: WW
Wizard: Archon with Scramble and Teleport
Witch Doctor: Acid Cloud with Jaunt and Stalker + Grave Injustice
Monk: Tempest Rush
Demon Hunter: Tactical Advance with Multi-shot or Ball Lightning

They all have a high MP spec (there are more than what I've listed here):

Barb: Smash
Wizard: CM/SNS
Witch Doctor: 0dog, Bears
Monk: Thunderclap
Demon Hunter: __________

I've only played Demon Hunter on high MP with a group, so I don't know how their solo play in high MP is. I would assume its Gloom face tank?
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary. This game is extremely time consuming to say the least but it's fun in multiplayer. This isn't a type of RPG in which everywhere you go someone might PK you or challenge you to pvp.

The person who you're trying to Nerf is that same friend who you ask for help or join their game. If you can't do it alone and his character just got nerfed cuz you was crying about his class being better than yours, then what will you do after both of you can't do anything together?

Instead of crying for Nerf, cry for an increase or boost for another class.

Say no to NERFS. What tha hell are you benefiting from for getting that class nerfed.

Where is the benefits of gettingb barbs nerfed???

Who is going to benefit from this?

Who is going to tank if barbs are as weak as the rest of the classes?
I enjoy all the classes, they all have their own feel and strengths.

They all have a fast low MP farming spec:

Barb: WW
Wizard: Archon with Scramble and Teleport
Witch Doctor: Acid Cloud with Jaunt and Stalker + Grave Injustice
Monk: Tempest Rush
Demon Hunter: Tactical Advance with Multi-shot or Ball Lightning

They all have a high MP spec (there are more than what I've listed here):

Barb: Smash
Wizard: CM/SNS
Witch Doctor: 0dog, Bears
Monk: Thunderclap
Demon Hunter: __________

I've only played Demon Hunter on high MP with a group, so I don't know how their solo play in high MP is. I would assume its Gloom face tank?


For high MP, use Bola Shot for your hatred generator in combination with Spike Trap - Echoing Blast and go the Gloom tank route. For Bola, I've found Volatile Explosives, Thunder Ball, and Imminent Doom all effective in their own ways. Thunder Ball really shines with high APS (such as using Calamity) for the stun if you're having difficulty surviving, and it's great for fighting the ubers. Volatile Explosives is great for farming speed, and no other hatred generator can match the damage of Imminent Doom.
The problem is resource regeneration. Barbs have infinite while other classes have no way to sustain infinite resource regeneration.

For example Witch Doctors would be more than viable in mp10 if we didnt run out of mana. Even with full mana regen from items and vision quest we still cant hold our mana for the rediculouse life mp10 monsters have. Yeah we can cast rain dance but it has a 120 sec cooldown.

So in short to make other classes viable at high MP we need to find ways to give end game characters near infinite mana while still taking skill to maintain that mana much like the WW barb does.


What do you mean no way to sustain? Wizards have AP on Crit. Monks have Spirit Regen and high APS makes Spirit spending a non-issue. DHs may suffer a little in Disc, but you could use Vengeance, Nightstalker, or Legacy Nat's to help. Such is the trade off if you want to use Bears for high MP. I use Bears for speed farming low MP. Try out 0 Dogs for high MP and watch mana cost become negligible.

Your monk does have some serious spirit issues. Was kind of surprised when I took a look at it and why you thought it better than your barb. Then I took a look at the DPS on your barb and his equipment, not really made for farming...
Anyway, my monk beats you all at farming with a TR build in MP0 so technically he's probably the "best" farmer. Problem here is that MP0 is still the best difficulty to farm in. They should improve higher MP, and then my monk would really fall short.


You missed my monks ammy. I have enough spirit that I don't need the third spirit passive that you have, and I can use fleet footed (so I'm even faster).

When my barb is fully geared (gear that I have, but am not using at the moment), I'm doing about 140k dps. I'm scaled down, because of fury issues and keeping wotb up in lower mps (where experience farming is more efficient). With full gear on, I also have almost 70k vita, and around 700 res all unbuffed. I'm working at getting my barb to the next level (200k+ dps) with great survivability even for doing MP10 ubers. Unlike what you've heard though, it isn't cheap.
Bears would be too powerful if you could get unlimited mana. As it is, you can still spam a lot of bears and regen your mana pretty fast if you have the right gear. WD is underrated imo.
Edited by Dirk#1799 on 2/6/2013 4:13 PM PST
There are questions of balance, but different characters have their specialties and in this sense I think there is more balance than we sometimes give the game credit for. A wizard is awesome against a single, powerful opponent - you can keep that opponent incapacitated, k'db , or slowed while you barrage them with ranged attacks. At Inferno MP1, my wizard can clear an area faster than my barb (possibly due to inexperience with the barb) even with Sprint because my wizard can infinitely cast arcane torrent (item bonuses + arcane regen > cost of arcane torrent) and freeze opponents with frost nova and slow them with blizzard while they take incredible damage. However, at around MP4 playing my wizard might as well be flying a kite. The barb can handle this easily with dmg buffs and health regenerating attacks. I don't have as much time to play, so I'm not experienced with the WD and DH, but the monk, wizard, and barb have very different specialties. I maintain that a barb is the ideal character for key farming, a wizard is great for gold farming (try heaven on hell-10 and get back to me if you think I'm crazy saying this, you can rip through the entire act in 20-30 minutes and walk away with nominal repair costs and sell all equipment without worrying about it), and a monk is good for survivability - ideal if playing hardcore. Balance doesn't necessarily mean that every character is equally good at everything you might want to do. Thoughts?
Btw, my profile doesn't show my inferno farming gear for my monk (that gear I use for leoric signet runs). My dps is around 84k, 510ish res all, and 40k vita. I get enough life steal from the skorn I use to keep me going just fine.
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary. This game is extremely time consuming to say the least but it's fun in multiplayer. This isn't a type of RPG in which everywhere you go someone might PK you or challenge you to pvp.

The person who you're trying to Nerf is that same friend who you ask for help or join their game. If you can't do it alone and his character just got nerfed cuz you was crying about his class being better than yours, then what will you do after both of you can't do anything together?


+1

Exactly, and how much effort did that person that you just requested to get nerfed, actually put into their char? Probably way more than the person crying for the nerf.
The problem is resource regeneration. Barbs have infinite while other classes have no way to sustain infinite resource regeneration..


Barb has infinite? Barb is the only class that actually looses resources (fury) over time (if not hitting anything or using Unforgiving), whereas some other classes (DH, WD, Wiz) even gain it back.

CM Wizzes can even have unlimited arcane resource with enough crit chance, including no cooldowns on their skills. ;)

DH can switch back and forth between skills, producing hatred. Discipline is more difficult to sustain, but can be improved with gear and Backup Plan.

Monks can use spirit generating gear and certain skills to improve spirit generation. However, whenever they hit monsters, they produce spirit, as barbs produce fury.

WD has mainly gear (mana regen and max mana) and certain passives to improve resources. However, bears are not "mana cheap" at all. I personally prefer Spirit Barriage, which has nearly same damage, but costs much less mana compared to bears. With rush of Essence and Spiritual Attunement you can spam it quite a lot (if not unlimited with very good gear).
Edited by Forelle#1338 on 2/6/2013 5:06 PM PST
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary. This game is extremely time consuming to say the least but it's fun in multiplayer. This isn't a type of RPG in which everywhere you go someone might PK you or challenge you to pvp.

The person who you're trying to Nerf is that same friend who you ask for help or join their game. If you can't do it alone and his character just got nerfed cuz you was crying about his class being better than yours, then what will you do after both of you can't do anything together?

Instead of crying for Nerf, cry for an increase or boost for another class.

Say no to NERFS. What tha hell are you benefiting from for getting that class nerfed.

Where is the benefits of gettingb barbs nerfed???

Who is going to benefit from this?

Who is going to tank if barbs are as weak as the rest of the classes?


seems like you are the only one. let me direct you to this thread

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709282189?page=1

the title is wrong i can see LL on belt for barbs by itself does not make them OP. pretty much everyone non barb class wanted to buff their own class by having LL on belts as well. we weren't calling for nerfs for barbs might belt LL.

but it seemed like majority of barbs were against non barbs being buffed, because they didn't want to share the candy... they wanted to remain king of the hill, etc...

also another note... for some ppl, just because you leveled a class to lvl 60 (virgin lv 60), or you have a lv 60 with low dps and crap gear, does not mean you have much of a say about a particular classes strengths and weaknesses.
Agreed. Im extremely dissapointed that blizzard released a game that looks like it was balanced by 3rd graders. It's a far cry from the precision balancing of the Star Craft 2 team. In a game that is 100% pvm how did they make 1 class that is so decisively good. Nothing comes close to Barbarians. They have more than triple the level 60's of any other class!!! And the Wizards critical mass freeze lock build is another joke put into the game. Its appalling to watch. I literally feel like kids made this game. I feel like there shouldn't even need to be a number of complaints about it to get it to change. It should have just never happened.

But what im most mad about is that i decided to really commit my time to leveling and gearing my monk for end game not thinking that any team of developers could completely ignore the playability of any of the classes. Once again i was wrong. Monks are by far the biggest joke of a class past MP6-7. They cost so much more and they just simply can't survive at all compared to a barb with dirt cheap life steal. I would love to make a life steal build that doesn't start at a couple hundred million gold. Of all the buffs they hand out like candy why not make some small adjustments, just minor fixes, to the one class that the worst known resource regeneration. Once again, im so disappointed in this development team.

Someone's reported this for no good reason, so I quote in order to preserve it. We really have reached the point where this game doesn't have fans so much as partisans, haven't we?
02/06/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Gift
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary.

I don't think you have to worry about anyone nerfing your Barb, since Blizzard seem to have finally gotten the message that nerfs are always received negatively: 1.07's attempt at building build diversity involved buffing "underused" skills & runes, but didn't (directly) nerf any of their most-used counterparts for simply being popular, as had happened repeatedly in previous patches.

Nobody wants to spoil your fun, and if any of the devs speak of nerfing your class, we'll have your back, don't worry about that.
@faffner

You can see my barb and monk setup now, if you'd like. I logged out, and it updated my profile.

Both chars are a work in progress though, since I haven't put all the gear together that I want to. I'm looking to finish off my inna's set for my monk (4 piece that is), and I'm planning on changing quite a bit of gear on my barb to get him to the 200k dps, 100k hp range. I'm looking to build my barb mainly for carrying mp10 ubers, because most of my friends that still play, are a lot weaker than my chars, and I'd need to carry.
02/06/2013 05:25 PMPosted by Waitubold
I say everyone should remove the word Nerf from their vocabulary.

I don't think you have to worry about anyone nerfing your Barb, since Blizzard seem to have finally gotten the message that nerfs are always received negatively: 1.07's attempt at building build diversity involved buffing "underused" skills & runes, but didn't (directly) nerf any of their most-used counterparts for simply being popular, as had happened repeatedly in previous patches.

Nobody wants to spoil your fun, and if any of the devs speak of nerfing your class, we'll have your back, don't worry about that.


They've already nerfed them once. Actually, it was more of a double whammy nerf. Sprint/run like the wind use to proc 20% of the time, and they nerfed that down to 8% of the time. That means that the fury that you generate from the tornados was cut down by 60%. Then the old ww/tornado build used the fury spend from ww to keep your fury spend high enough to keep wrath of the berzerker up. When they cut the fury cost to ww, they forced barbs to also need to spam sprint, or battle rage to make sure they spent at least 25 fury/second to keep up wotb. It's a lot harder to keep up wotb since they made those changes, and too many people that are still looking at videos from pre 1.0.5 days, don't realize just how much they've moved the bar up on gearing to still make the build work well. It's likely that even the wrong gear can kind of work in high MP levels, because the monsters will get hit multiple times by tornados, but when you try to do efficient runs at lower mp levels, the 8% proc rate kills fury generation when the monsters get 1 hit.
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