Diablo® III

Will Diablo3 Survive until the Expansion??

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Posts: 1,637
There would need to be a complete overhaul to the character progression, itemization and skill systems

1.0.7 is considered to be a weighty patch to Blizzard and its a gigantic step backwards and a clear demonstration of their intentions in regards to the direction this game is heading and that's right off a cliff
There would need to be a complete overhaul to the character progression, itemization and skill systems

1.0.7 is considered to be a weighty patch to Blizzard and its a gigantic step backwards and a clear demonstration of their intentions in regards to the direction this game is heading and that's right off a cliff


right



Man i hate to admit this but there is less and less items in the auction house then there was before and more and more of my d3 friends are leaving diablo 3 :( but i still have a few here and there left, friends i have for over 10 years now. We all are veterans of d2 hoping d3 will reach its potential.


Just as your friends are leaving, it's probably the reason they don't allow you to see the number of users online...because only us masochists are left.


i always wondered why i couldnt check # of users online...
Good post, feel same way.
Me and a lot of my friends enjoy this game and have played it a lot since last May; when it gets boring then we quit for a bit and come back. If you or anyone finds D3 boring then you should do the same or just don't come back - Blizzard isn't holding you against your will.

I really hope your "concerns" aren't based off the people that complain on this forum or else this thread loses the little validation it had.
02/01/2013 02:40 PMPosted by StzA
Good post, feel same way.


thank you, very much.

Me and a lot of my friends enjoy this game and have played it a lot since last May; when it gets boring then we quit for a bit and come back. If you or anyone finds D3 boring then you should do the same or just don't come back - Blizzard isn't holding you against your will.

I really hope your "concerns" aren't based off the people that complain on this forum or else this thread loses the little validation it had.


My concerns are based of my own experiance of previous diablo games and diablo 3. I do the same i quit for a while and come back to play because it can be fun that way. That is how im grinding to level 100 paragon on my barbarian.
While recognizing that this is a sequel, it's important to remember that we shouldn't be looking at a brand new game through the rose lenses of nostalgia for its predecessor. Sequel or not, a game needs to stand on its own merits. Ocarina of Time wasn't an awesome Zelda game because of what came before, it was just an awesome Zelda game.

There are issues with Diablo 3 that they're working on, and yes, it appears part of this involves replacing the game's director. If I had one thing to say, it's that the quality of drops isn't at a steady upgrade level as you play through the game. The best implementation of that I've seen has been in Torchlight 2. If I could have Torchlight 2's itemization with the rest of Diablo 3 as is, I'd be taking days off from work here and there to play, because outside of itemization, Diablo 3 outshines TL2 in every conceivable fashion.

I don't see D3 in danger of dying out. There are people playing the game. It's a different era of gaming than it was when Diablo 2 came out. It's also important to realize that at release, Diablo 2 had a lot of complaints that went away as Blizzard continued work on the game. The same is happening here, but we're in an era where people more readily use public forums like these to voice their displeasure; in 2000, we were largely limited to sending emails to Blizzard if we had complaints. Context is important.

To me, that's really what needs to change in Diablo 3: the quality of itemization. I don't mind things dropping that I can't (or won't) use, as long as the frequency of legitimate upgrades improves. When the game launched, you could go through an entire act without seeing an upgrade. That isn't a good rate. It's improved slightly, but the surplus of fairly underwhelming item traits makes it statistically less likely to get a truly useful combination to drop, which forces people to go to the auction house when they hit a difficulty brick wall and no longer "would like to have" an upgrade, but actively require it to keep playing the game.

Fix the itemization, and this game would be perfect for me. As it is, I still can't wait to get home to play Diablo 3 for a bit most days. But I was there for Diablo and Diablo 2 (I can still remember picking up Diablo from a rack at Target...), and I had to fight to not call in sick so I could stay home and play. I took release day of Diablo 3 off, only to find connection issues kept me from playing nearly to the point where I'd have gotten home from work normally, meaning I gave up 8 hours of pay for nothing. That hurt.

All that said, this is still a phenomenal game I'm excited to play, and hope I'll continue to be so for years to come.
@Silentman, good points.
Edited by NeLLy#1854 on 2/1/2013 3:11 PM PST
Help us David!!!!
Posts: 1,637
02/01/2013 03:08 PMPosted by Silentman
Ocarina of Time wasn't an awesome Zelda game because of what came before, it was just an awesome Zelda game.

Ocarina of Time was an instant classic
02/01/2013 02:56 PMPosted by kastermaster
already dead


i dont know about that now...
Posts: 1,621
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D3 will of course survive in the sense that there will always be a decent sized player base (given the amount of copies sold). The question is more or less what percentage of those who originally pre-ordered/purchased the game and began playing it within the first week or so, will even consider doing the same for the expansion? While I don't agree with the delivery by those who do rage quit posts, there is an understandable reason why there is so much vitriole regarding the current game. Yes, Blizzard knows about the backlash and will want to prove the naysayers wrong. But are they going to make and take the bold steps needed to correct them? I therefore do understand where your original post is coming from.

Given that the initial premise of having Inferno difficulty be the endgame (a challenge originally meant to be extremely difficult in terms of progressing and finding the gear to progress) did not live up to that original objective, that lack of endgame content now, presents an ever growing issue with the current game as time passes. Players are looking for things to do. I've logged less than 120 hours of game play since 1.0.5 was released; the only thing keeping me playing at the moment is hardcore where the journey of staying alive is part of the reward.

PvP arena still has to precede an expansion and that will keep a portion of the player base entertained for awhile (basically buying some time). For those who aren't interested in PvP though, the lack of new content will continue to be an issue.

I need to re-post what I wrote before (back in October just around the time 1.0.5 was released) about how I felt about the game so that people understand where I'm coming from:

Warning, the following is long and not meant for those who have short attention spans. tl;dr version is wall of text crits you for 100% opinion....

I wouldn't generalize all of the negative feedback as "everyone hating this game". Sure, some of the negativity ends up going way over the top, but if you pick out key phrases, you'll see words like unrewarding, uninspiring, boring, poor itemization, linear playthrough, always online, etc. In other words, there are common themes to why a portion of the player base feels alienated. Some folks prefer to rage about it while others want to provide more constructive feedback in hopes of seeing the underlying issues addressed.

I do realize that games. no matter the genre, will always have different meanings to different people. Some play games for the pure entertainment and fun value, some play for the challenges, others play for competition and ego, others play to be the absolute best and/or to always have the best items. And yes, none of these are mutually exclusive as there will always be players who are after several of these. Back in May-July, I was still having a lot of fun since after completing Inferno, I started leveling alts along with playing hardcore. Now that I have several level 60's though (two which I paragon leveled a bit while using some of the "better" drops to slowly re-gear my "yet to be Inferno played" barbarian), it's turned into a mostly unrewarding time sink.

To put it more simply, one of the main challenges that game developers have to do is to understand all of this in order to be able to satisfy a broad demographic. At the same time, they have to balance the challenges with the rewards. The majority of loot inspired games basically relate back to B.F. Skinner's Skinner Box experiment. In games like this though, the quality of the reward is relative since that is dependent on ones baseline gear. What may be a high quality to one may not be for someone who already has decent items. Yes, there are some who actually don't care about the loot and have fun just slaying demons so the following doesn't necessarily apply to those folks.

For D3, Normal to Hell difficulty isn't where the itemization issue becomes problematic. At lower levels, the rolls on items do tend to make sense including those on class specific items. This is why it is relatively fun leveling through Normal to Hell (albeit having to go through the story line questing does become old after awhile). What that tells me is that Blizzard could use that same functionality to roll stats which makes more sense on higher level items, but chooses not to do so (I understand that since grinding for loot is one of the aspects when you are working your way through and/or once you've cleared all of Inferno).

However, relegating rolls completely to the mercy of RNG for Inferno level items leaves us with the whole "unrewarding" aspect when it comes to the loot which does drop. It's not about the quantity that drops, but about finding the occasional quality reward which offers a positive reinforcement which keeps players wanting to play. If you are on the unlucky side of RNG, ultimately the desire to continue playing goes down because you'll feel like you are doing these repetitive runs for "nothing" (sure, you now at least get experience, gold/magic find bonuses from Paragon levels but that doesn't really count towards giving players their dopamine fix).

Since the items which do tend to drop is normally not even worthwhile to use on an alternate character (meaning the chances are also relatively low that someone else out there would want it) and/or is unsellable on the AH, it ends up as vendor trash/salvage. Thus the reality is that many players feel like they have to farm for gold because they are unable to come across drops which would be useful either for an alt or useful to someone else if they put it up on the AH. I'm also not advocating for the highest quality rares and legendaries to be raining everywhere like a loot pinata as that is equally and more so boring/unrewarding (might as well put in a cheat mode console like TL2). The key is finding a proper balance.

The AH itself can be its own worst enemy because some players felt driven away by it (sticker shock if they did not do more refined searches) and therefore no longer try to use it as a tool. Which is unfortunate because I've tried to put up some of the "better" stuff for not much over vendor price only to have no takers. I see profiles out there where some could have used those items which I ended up vendoring. With both rares and legendaries now dropping at a higher rate, all this means for more players is filling up their inventory even quicker while still finding the majority of it is as vendor trash/salvage material; in otherwords, generally unrewarding.

Anyway, this is why I've become even more cynical whenever the development blog goes on about increased rewards. The philosophy of the Diablo III decision makers have tended towards one that does not fully understand what makes games like this fun and rewarding to continually grind the same content over and over again. They want things like the PvE game play to be overall balanced and the build diversity of each character class to also be balanced. They buff and then overcompensate with nerfs elsewhere. They offer challenges and increased difficulties but the rewards themselves tend to end up being extremely lackluster. Inferno previously had some pretty obvious defined gear checks including enrage timers on elite packs. That shows the kind of design philosophy the decision makers have in place as to what constitutes a challenge- by introducing MMORPG mechanics into an ARPG where the objectives are simple; slay demons, collect loot, use/trade loot to progress. For every step forwards, it is offset by a few steps backwards. Players often times say they feel powerful at the beginning of the game but feel weak once they hit the later difficulties which is counter to the notion that there should be a general feeling of progression as your game time increases.

During the start of the PTR, the Hellfire Ring bug (unbeknownst at the time) made many players excited because it was the exact kind of reward they've been looking for to keep themselves busy. While I understand the bug made it way too overpowered, the decision makers instead of capitalizing on this, decided to over nerf the ring as opposed to finding a sweet spot where players would still feel compelled to continually grind for the ring. This further cemented in my mind that this development team does not fully grok the rewards aspect of the grindfest and are still taking an MMORPG mindset when it comes to balancing the PvE aspects of an ARPG.

Generally speaking, Diablo III is great when it comes to its graphics and fluid combat mechanics. It falls short on the larger execution though when it comes to the game world (not very randomized), linear quest based story line which gets in the way, unbalanced rewards in relation to the challenge, difficulty, and time sink involved, lack of useful in-game gold sinks which goes towards progression, etc. And if you read peoples postings, there are numerous other reasons including comparing D2 (more specifically, the LoD expansion) and D3. Sure, some things which may have been cut out from D3 may end up returning in an expansion but as it stands, Blizzard is burning through the goodwill legacy of the Diablo franchise with some of its customer base. Back in July, there were numerous threads asking if you'd purchase an expansion. My own response at the time was that either way, I could not say at the time since it would really depend on how Blizzard addressed many of the games shortcomings. As it stands now, I've been playing less and less since 1.0.4 and even though 1.0.5 offered a host of positive changes, bottomline, it still feels unrewarding. With the current design philosophy of those in charge of the franchise, I just can't see myself as a prospective customer for any Diablo III expansion at this juncture.

And this is why many are trying to provide feedback (some do it better than others) because there are still those of us who truely want to see them make some fundamental changes to the quality of rolls on Inferno level items and to scale the rewards with the difficulty and challenges to where the whole fun aspect of the game will return on its own. However, unlike others who will continue rehashing the same thing over and over again, I know when it is time to just step away for awhile and to check back again once several patches have passed.

So I did stop playing for around 6 weeks and resumed playing just before 1.0.6a was released. Since we're now at least a week or two away from 1.0.7, again, there are some positive changes but I need to be blunt, they are basically just mostly bandaid fixes. I look at something like the crafting and Marquise gems for example as lost potential of really adding a rewarding element. And this just further increases my own perception that this development team doesn't quite get how you deal with the carrot on a stick in terms of giving players that real dopamine fix. If they don't get it by now, I doubt they'll ever get it.

It's why when I wrote my proposed open world/free roam mode, that a key PvE/PvM element of it was to give something that players could also strive for in terms of both challenges and rewards. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708951097 (you were the first one to post in it too).

I also realized that the above was an exercise in futility because I just don't see this type of philosophy being demonstrated based on what is considered rewarding in the current design. Such feedback as the above is like clapping with one hand. I can't see myself buying an expansion if all it does is add back some of the things that were removed, adds an act or two, adds some new classes, but fails to address the underlying core systems which bottomline, plays a key role in the rewards aspect of the game when it comes to loot.

Like you, I have or should I say, had hope. But I've kind of reached a level of indifference. At this point, I'm just going along for the ride since I already paid for this game. Good or bad, Diablo III is what it is and the ball is basically on Blizzard's side of the court in terms of proving (not by rhetoric but by game play experience) they want to make this version of the game the best in the franchise.
Sorry OP, this game has been diminishing for quite some time... 10 million copies sold... guess how many are still playing? im sure its less than 100k around the world
There would need to be a complete overhaul to the character progression, itemization and skill systems

1.0.7 is considered to be a weighty patch to Blizzard and its a gigantic step backwards and a clear demonstration of their intentions in regards to the direction this game is heading and that's right off a cliff


^^^^Sadly, I couldn't agree more.
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