Diablo® III

marquise ruby question, damage gain

I just plugged in a marquise ruby into my EF and a marquise emerald into my offhand and its saying I gain 9760 damage. This is more DMG gain from using 2 marquise emeralds. Is this accurate? Can anyone double check it? These rubies seem like are gonna be pretty good
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Wait till patch is released. I believe they mentioned that Black Damage is not being calculated correctly and they corrected this for Ruby min/max damage calculation but left it alone for now for base black damage weapon calc. They should be on par though but we shall see.
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01/31/2013 02:03 PMPosted by yumyumyum
put the ruby in your offhand and the emerald in the main hand and see if the dmg gain is even greater..


It should be.

The ruby should go in whichever wep is faster because you swing with that one more frequently.

In this case, his mainhand is 1.44 and his offhand is 1.54 so the axe should yield higher DPS from a Ruby.
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01/31/2013 10:30 AMPosted by CaptainCarl
Wait till patch is released. I believe they mentioned that Black Damage is not being calculated correctly and they corrected this for Ruby min/max damage calculation but left it alone for now for base black damage weapon calc. They should be on par though but we shall see.


This made me sad - I really wanted to see what a ruby would do for my skorn with the bug.
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Due to the bug with how bonus damage is calculated on black weapons, however, the bonuses received from the new Ruby values are currently much larger than intended. So, to help with this issue, all the rubies which received a damage buff -- as well as Marquise Rubies -- will also be switching to a new calculation, one that better matches what you would intuitively expect. (As KirusAlufras pointed out, Rubies don’t work consistently between physical damage weapons and non-physical damage weapons, and we’d like to correct that.)The new buffed Rubies will do exactly what the tooltip claims. If a tooltip says +80 to Minimum Damage and +80 to Maximum Damage, then the damage on the weapon will go up by those amounts when the Ruby is socketed.

So, for example, if you have a weapon with 150 - 200 damage and your Ruby adds +80 Min/+80 Max then your weapon will do 230 – 280 after inserting the Ruby.

As another example, you have a “black” physical damage weapon that does 300-450 damage. If you insert a Ruby with +80 Min / +80 Max then your weapon will do 380 – 530 damage.

One more example: You have a Fire damage weapon that does 150 – 200 damage and an extra 50-100 Fire damage. If you insert a Ruby with +80 Min / + 80 Max then your weapon will do 230-280 damage with an extra 50-100 Fire damage.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7810050948

i think ruby can be alternative to emerald and need to test out edps when the correction has been done..
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put the ruby in your offhand and the emerald in the main hand and see if the dmg gain is even greater..


It should be.

The ruby should go in whichever wep is faster because you swing with that one more frequently.

In this case, his mainhand is 1.44 and his offhand is 1.54 so the axe should yield higher DPS from a Ruby.


I keep hearing people talking about Rubies benefitting weapons with faster attack speeds, so I'm missing something. Isn't the the thing that matters most the damage on the weapon? If I put a +100 damage gem in a weapon that does 500 damage per swing, doesn't it have the same relative affect to an emerald regardless of it's attack speed? Isn't damage per swing the thing that really matters?

Also, I'm pretty sure I swing with each weapon almost exactly half the time. There may be a very small difference in the amount of time I spend with one particular hand active, but even then it's a small difference and I'd think I spend more time with the slower hand active. (And even this only really effects SW damage, and only a little bit)

Final question: do rubies benefit from the +X% damage on a weapon?

I'm probably going to have to play around with damage cakculators to get a better understanding of this stuff. Does d3up have the latest "fixed" ruby calculation? (I guess that's actually the final question)
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 1/31/2013 5:28 PM PST
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It should be.

The ruby should go in whichever wep is faster because you swing with that one more frequently.

In this case, his mainhand is 1.44 and his offhand is 1.54 so the axe should yield higher DPS from a Ruby.

If you're not using FitL, it won't matter. A +60 damage ruby is +30 to average damage no matter which weapon it goes into, and no difference in attack speed will change the result. The following combinations produce the same EDPS in the absence of FitL, no matter which weapon you use for the ruby:

1. 800 AWD @ 2 APS, 400 AWD @ 1 APS
2. 800 AWD @ 1 APS, 400 AWD @ 2 APS

Everyone uses FitL in 1.0.6, but a percentage of the monks will (rightfully) move away from it when 1.0.7 hits.
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01/31/2013 05:09 PMPosted by Demiwraith
Final question: do rubies benefit from the +X% damage on a weapon?

Going on the PTR to find out right now, but I believe the answer is "no." Not that I trust the answer to stay the same for more than a Tuesday at a time lately.
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Or I would, if I weren't getting error 33 on the PTR.
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Should add that the new tornado damage calculation (active hand determines damage) will affect this somewhat. In general, though, if the damage per attack is equal, I believe (eyeball test) you should put the ruby in the slower weapon because it will be active more often, which results in better tornado damage overall.

Vortex damage already accounts for APS, so I am reasonably confident it's unaffected by weapon speed. But tornado damage will definitely favor different weapons. I'm confident someone brought this up recently, but I can't find the thread.
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It should be.

The ruby should go in whichever wep is faster because you swing with that one more frequently.

In this case, his mainhand is 1.44 and his offhand is 1.54 so the axe should yield higher DPS from a Ruby.

If you're not using FitL, it won't matter. A +60 damage ruby is +30 to average damage no matter which weapon it goes into, and no difference in attack speed will change the result. The following combinations produce the same EDPS in the absence of FitL, no matter which weapon you use for the ruby:

1. 800 AWD @ 2 APS, 400 AWD @ 1 APS
2. 800 AWD @ 1 APS, 400 AWD @ 2 APS

Everyone uses FitL in 1.0.6, but a percentage of the monks will (rightfully) move away from it when 1.0.7 hits.

Edit:

Okay, I was thinking about duel wielding incorrectly. I will re-do my math and try and figure this out again.

Sec.

So, when you duel-wield, you essentially have 1 weapon with combine stats of both the weapons you use.

If you have a 1.0 APS wep in one hand and a 2.0 APS wep in the other hand, you are essentially swinging a single 1.5 APS wep with damage equal to the average of the two weapons. This is because your faster 2.0 APS wep must "wait" for the slower 1.0 APS wep to complete its swing in order to swing again.

Because of this, in a duel-wield situation, adding a ruby to either weapon will result in the same increase in DPS because they are treated as one "melded" weapon.

However, if you have only 1 weapon equipped, that weapon's APS DOES determine how strongly a Ruby will effect it.

If you have two completely equal DPS weapons:
1. 200 damage, 1.0 APS: 200DPS
2. 100 dmaage, 2.0 APS: 200DPS

The ruby will be exactly 2x more effective in weapon 2 than it would be in weapon 1.

Here is where it gets fun though.

In a duel-wield situation, the 1.0 APS weapon is "present" for exactly 2x more time (66% compared to 33% of the 2.0 APS wep).

This means that the Ruby is, again, a net-wash when it comes to how it benefits "skills" such as Sweeping Winds (which sample your APS and your Damage continuously).

If you put the ruby in your slow weapon, it gives less "dps" but it gets more time. If you put it in your fast weapon it gives more "dps" but it gets less time to do that DPS.

It does seem that this would not be the case for Cyclone though. In every sample-situation I can think of, you would want the Ruby in your slower weapon. If Cyclones "snapshot" their damage. IE: the 6 hits from each Cyclone are based on the damage of the weapon that was used to spawn them, then it is a wash. A ruby will be equally effective in either Weapon.

If Cyclones dynamically sample their damage from the current mainhand, a Ruby in your slow weapon is more effective because each weapon spawns cyclones at a given rate that is uneffected by rubies, but the slow weapon is present 66% of the time and therefore the ruby would increase Cyclone damage at 66% efficiency compared to only 33% in the fast weapon.

Conclusion:
I think this is a much more accurate analysis than my previous (deleted) statements.

Thoughts?
Edited by Druin#1518 on 2/1/2013 11:03 AM PST
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You have two weapons.
1. 200-400 damage 1.0 APS
2. 100-200 damage 2.0 APS


I think the thing is, you're holding DPS constant and then saying that the weapon with the fastest attack gets more benefit from the ruby. Yes that's true... but its true because it's a weapon has less damage per attack (what I think Vrk refers to as average weapon damage)

But it's only useful to say that the faster weapon benefits more from a ruby when the weapons have EXACTLY the same DPS. If I tell you I have one ruby and one emerald, and I have one weapon with 1.5 APS and another with 1.2 APS, and I have to know which gem to put in which weapon, you can't answer that without knowing the DPS and then back calculating the average weapon damage.

If I tell you I have one weapon with 400 damage per attack and one with 300 damage per attack, you can tell which gem goes where without having to know what their attack speeds are.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 2/1/2013 11:11 AM PST
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You have two weapons.
1. 200-400 damage 1.0 APS
2. 100-200 damage 2.0 APS


I think the thing is, you're holding DPS constant and then saying that the weapon with the fastest attack gets more benefit from the ruby. Yes that's true... but its true because it's a weapon has less damage per attack (what I think Vrk refers to as average weapon damage)

But it's only useful to say that the faster weapon benefits more from a ruby when the weapons have EXACTLY the same DPS. If I tell you I have one ruby and one emerald, and I have one weapon with 1.5 APS and another with 1.2 APS, and I have to know which gem to put in which weapon, you can't answer that without knowing the DPS and then back calculating the average weapon damage.

If I tell you I have one weapon with 400 damage per attack and one with 300 damage per attack, you can tell which gem goes where without having to know what their attack speeds are.


The effect of a Ruby in a weapon has nothing to do with it's damage.

If you were not duel-wielding and you had one weapon with 1.5 APS and one weapon with 1.2 APS, I could conclusively tell you that the ruby would be more effective in the 1.5 APS weapon.

Likewise, Emeralds aren't effected by weapon APS OR Damage so they are even easier to tell.

When duel-wielding, your weapons are "combine" so there is no difference to your paperdoll DPS between putting the ruby in your offhand and putting it in your mainhand.

I would bet that if you went on the PTR and flip-flopped which wep had a ruby and which had an emerald, your paperdoll DPS would be identical for both situations.

That being said, there IS a 'potential' effect on eDPS from Cyclone.

Example just to prove my point:
Weapon_1: 100-200 damage 2.0 APS - DPS: 100+200 /2 * 2 = 300 DPS
Weapon_2: 200-400 damage 2.0 APS - 200+400 /2 * 2 = 600 DPS

Add a ruby that does 100min 100max

New_weapon_1: 200-300 damage 2.0 APS - New_DPS: 200+300 /2 * 2 = 500 DPS
Weapon 1: New_DPS - DPS = 500 - 300 = 200 DPS from ruby.
New_weapon_2: 300-500 damage 2.0 APS - New_DPS: 300+500 /2 * 2 = 800 DPS
Weapon 2: New_DPS - DPS = 800 - 600 = 200 DPS from ruby.

The ruby is 100% not effected by weapon damage.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 2/1/2013 11:20 AM PST
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02/01/2013 10:45 AMPosted by Druin
If Cyclones dynamically sample their damage from the current mainhand, a Ruby in your slow weapon is more effective because each weapon spawns cyclones at a given rate that is uneffected by rubies, but the slow weapon is present 66% of the time and therefore the ruby would increase Cyclone damage at 66% efficiency compared to only 33% in the fast weapon.


Wait, what? You swing alternating between weapons. Exactly 50% of your weapon strikes are with each weapon, 50% of your crits are with each weapon. 50% of your tornadoes come from each weapon (after 1.0.7). Crits don't just happen spontaneously.

Now the vortex of SW surrounding you, that ticks every so often (twice a second?) even when you're not swinging. So that one should benefit from the weapon that is active more often. That's probably the slow weapon. So if you have two weapons that do 200 damage PER SWING, but one has 1.5 attacks per seccond and one has 1.2 attacks per second, I *think* you get a very small boost (SW vortex only) from putting it in the slower weapon.
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If you were not duel-wielding and you had one weapon with 1.5 APS and 1 weapon with 1.2 APS, I could conclusively tell you that the ruby would be more effective in the 1.5 APS weapon.


Of course the ruby would have a greater effect on DPS in the fast weapon. So would an emerald. The question is about relative effectiveness of rubies vs emeralds. A ruby will increase weapon damage by the same percentage regardless of weapon speed. So will an emerald. So weapon speed shouldn't affect your decision.

...Maybe I'm just not getting it
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 2/1/2013 11:26 AM PST
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02/01/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Demiwraith
If Cyclones dynamically sample their damage from the current mainhand, a Ruby in your slow weapon is more effective because each weapon spawns cyclones at a given rate that is uneffected by rubies, but the slow weapon is present 66% of the time and therefore the ruby would increase Cyclone damage at 66% efficiency compared to only 33% in the fast weapon.


Wait, what? You swing alternating between weapons. Exactly 50% of your weapon strikes are with each weapon, 50% of your crits are with each weapon. 50% of your tornadoes come from each weapon (after 1.0.7). Crits don't just happen spontaneously.

Now the vortex of SW surrounding you, that ticks every so often (twice a second?) even when you're not swinging. So that one should benefit from the weapon that is active more often. That's probably the slow weapon. So if you have two weapons that do 200 damage PER SWING, but one has 1.5 attacks per seccond and one has 1.2 attacks per second, I *think* you get a very small boost (SW vortex only) from putting it in the slower weapon.

Point 1.
Yes I agree, 50% of your Cyclones are SPAWNED by each weapon. But do we know if Cyclone damage is sampled from the weapon that Spawned it or from the weapon that is currently active?

That is my point with the Cyclone thing.

If Cyclone damage per tick comes from the weapon that spawned it, the Ruby is just as effective in either weapon.
If Cyclone damage per tick comes from the currently active weapon, the Ruby is more effective in your slowest weapon.

Point 2.
SW Samples your DPS continuously, you only see a "tick" every 0.5 seconds because that is the visual representation of the damage you have done during that 0.5 second interval. It has actually done 1 "real" tick of damage every 0.0000000001 seconds or w/e the calculation is set to.

That being said, because SW samples BOTH weapon damage AND APS, SW will gain MORE damage from a Ruby if that ruby is in a faster weapon.

However, that faster weapon, while duel-wielding, will be your "active" weapon for less of the time.

Therefore, SW is not effected by which weapon you choose to put your Ruby in.
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02/01/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Demiwraith
If you were not duel-wielding and you had one weapon with 1.5 APS and 1 weapon with 1.2 APS, I could conclusively tell you that the ruby would be more effective in the 1.5 APS weapon.


Of course the ruby would be better in the slow weapon. So would an emerald. The question is about relative effectiveness of rubies vs emeralds. A ruby will increase weapon damage by the same percentage regardless of weapon speed. So will an emerald. So weapon speed shouldn't affect your decision.

...Maybe I'm just not getting it

The Ruby would be more effective in the FAST weapon.

Edit: example:
If you attack more times, the ruby will do its damage more times.

Assume you have two weapons.
1. 0 damage, 1.0 APS
2. 0 damage, 2.0 APS

Both weapons deal zero damage.

You put a +10 damage ruby in each of them.

1. 10-10 * 1 = 10 DPS
2. 10-10 * 2 = 20 DPS

The ruby clearly increases your DPS by more in the faster weapon.

The Emerald wouldn't give a single !@#$ about the APS of either weapon because it is equally effective in either case.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 2/1/2013 11:27 AM PST
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OK, Let me try this:

I have a crit chance of 50% and a Crit damage of +0%. (Ultra simplifying here, so I can do math without a spreadsheet. If it matters, let me know)

I have two weapons, with 100 damage per swing. Weapon A has 1.0 APS and weapon B has 2.0 APS. I'm choosing between a ruby that gives +100 damage, and an emerald that gives +100 CD.

damage is AS x (base damage + ruby damage) x (1 + .5 x emerald crit damage)

Weapon A DPS with nothing: 1.0 x (100 + 0) x (1 + 0) = 100
Weapon A DPS with ruby: (100 + 100) x (1 + 0) = 200
Weapon A DPS with emerald (100 ) x (1 + .5) = 150

Weapon B DPS with nothing: 2.0 x (100 + 0) x (1 + 0) = 200
Weapon B DPS with ruby: 2.0 x (100 + 100) x (1 + 0) = 400
Weapon B DPS with emerald: 2.0 x (100) x (1 + .5) = 300

Conclusion:
Regardless of speed of the weapon, ruby increases this person's DPS by 100%
Regardless of speed of the weapon, emerald increases this person's DPS by 50%
Percentage increase in weapon damage is unaffected by weapon speed, only by base weapon damage per swing.

(EDIT: Actually, it's effected by neither base weapon damage or weapon speed for emeralds)

What am I missing?
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 2/1/2013 11:48 AM PST
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Still working on this, but here's what I have so far:

1. Vortex damage already accounts for APS, so it's indifferent to ruby placement.
2. If each of my weapons had an additional socket, I'd put the ruby in the Shenlong's (higher AWD, lower APS).
3. If my weapons had their current attack speeds, but the AWDs were flipped, I'd still prefer the Shenlong's even though it has lower AWD and lower APS.

So far, "lower APS" and "lower DPS" are the only constants. I'm going to fiddle with it some more, though.
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