Diablo® III

Finally caved and tried PoE. Diablo 3 is better.

90 Night Elf Hunter
0
02/09/2013 01:16 PMPosted by vexorian
because he was basically helping promote the game, and not by the request of the developers.
hahahha

Yeah right.


I guess he thinks that GGG's devs have created PoE out of the goodness of their hearts and not because they want to ultimately make a profit.

He also must think that GGG's devs aren't savvy enough to know the marketing power of having top streamers play PoE--which, in turn, would make said game more profitable.

That's a powerful word in the business world--profit. It doesn't matter if you're making widgets, gadgets, or games, your success depends upon how much money you generate.
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Leveling in POE feels like a horrid grind to me. The combat is really boring, even later in the game. If they can fix that I may return.

D3 is great fun until you are item hunting or looking to theory craft.
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^ lol. until you item hunt or theory craft? Aren't those two of the most important parts of this genre????
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02/10/2013 01:07 AMPosted by stryker
^ lol. until you item hunt or theory craft? Aren't those two of the most important parts of this genre????


Most important is smooth, fun, fast paced combat. There's no excuse for not getting that right before anything else. D3 has that and can easily add theorycrafting and better currencies. POE is unlikely to fix the poor combat. I've yet to see a game this close to release ever make the big fixes to combat. It jsut never happens.

Item hunting is fun if the combat is fun. I loved D3 til the end game. That's why I don't play it. I dislike POE leveling so getting to the item hunting part is a boring grind. I wouldn't theory craft until I had good items for leveling alts. I may quit before that ever happens.
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^ lol. until you item hunt or theory craft? Aren't those two of the most important parts of this genre????


Most important is smooth, fun, fast paced combat. There's no excuse for not getting that right before anything else. D3 has that and can easily add theorycrafting and better currencies. POE is unlikely to fix the poor combat. I've yet to see a game this close to release ever make the big fixes to combat. It jsut never happens.

Item hunting is fun if the combat is fun. I loved D3 til the end game. That's why I don't play it. I dislike POE leveling so getting to the item hunting part is a boring grind. I wouldn't theory craft until I had good items for leveling alts. I may quit before that ever happens.


i completely disagree, to have an action game be RPG it's what PoE has achieved and diablo has only achieved Action but not RPG.

to me d3 is a short-lived action game much like going to arcade and inserting 1 dollar to play for about 10-30 mins, PoE is more like something i'd spend hours playing like pen & paper with friends or something

edit: actually that's a pretty good way to see it anyways, pen & paper cost like nothing AKA free practically these days, and d3 costs $.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/10/2013 4:11 AM PST
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02/10/2013 04:09 AMPosted by KradisZ


Most important is smooth, fun, fast paced combat. There's no excuse for not getting that right before anything else. D3 has that and can easily add theorycrafting and better currencies. POE is unlikely to fix the poor combat. I've yet to see a game this close to release ever make the big fixes to combat. It jsut never happens.

Item hunting is fun if the combat is fun. I loved D3 til the end game. That's why I don't play it. I dislike POE leveling so getting to the item hunting part is a boring grind. I wouldn't theory craft until I had good items for leveling alts. I may quit before that ever happens.


i completely disagree, to have an action game be RPG it's what PoE has achieved and diablo has only achieved Action but not RPG.

to me d3 is a short-lived action game much like going to arcade and inserting 1 dollar to play for about 10-30 mins, PoE is more like something i'd spend hours playing like pen & paper with friends or something

edit: actually that's a pretty good way to see it anyways, pen & paper cost like nothing AKA free practically these days, and d3 costs $.


to each their own. I got about 180 hours out of D3. Pretty good bargain. I got about 40 hours out of TL2. Not as good of a bargain.

I could definitely see playing 100 hours of POE for no cash. But if I got into it hardcore it would probably cost a lot more than D3 per hour.
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I guess he thinks that GGG's devs have created PoE out of the goodness of their hearts and not because they want to ultimately make a profit.


Delving into a developer's motivation is tricky waters.

Do they want to make a profit, enough that the game supports the company and its employees? Of course - they couldn't continue to run the company and keep producing content for the game otherwise.

Then again, this is a game that started as a project financed by their own savings and made practically out of a garage for the first couple years (the gameplanet podcast interview is where Chris talks about the start of the company back in 2006 - well worth listening to).

If you really wanted to make something, but needed a continued revenue stream to keep working on it and to keep making sure others could enjoy it as well, wouldn't you want to make a profit as well?

Trying to make something just to make a profit would be like what the WarZ guys tried to do.

Given the history of the company, and the fact that this game is *it* for GGG (they have no plans to produce any other game - all resources will be poured into PoE), lends weight to the idea that generating a profit is less of an ultimate goal and more of a strong enabler for what they want to do.

Suppose how one views it might depend on how cynical one is toward businesses, though.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0

I guess he thinks that GGG's devs have created PoE out of the goodness of their hearts and not because they want to ultimately make a profit.


Delving into a developer's motivation is tricky waters.

Do they want to make a profit, enough that the game supports the company and its employees? Of course - they couldn't continue to run the company and keep producing content for the game otherwise.

Then again, this is a game that started as a project financed by their own savings and made practically out of a garage for the first couple years (the gameplanet podcast interview is where Chris talks about the start of the company back in 2006 - well worth listening to).

If you really wanted to make something, but needed a continued revenue stream to keep working on it and to keep making sure others could enjoy it as well, wouldn't you want to make a profit as well?

Trying to make something just to make a profit would be like what the WarZ guys tried to do.

Given the history of the company, and the fact that this game is *it* for GGG (they have no plans to produce any other game - all resources will be poured into PoE), lends weight to the idea that generating a profit is less of an ultimate goal and more of a strong enabler for what they want to do.

Suppose how one views it might depend on how cynical one is toward businesses, though.


I do not discount the passion GGG has for PoE. That still doesn't negate the fact that in order to stay in business and grow, they have to make a profit. And, in order to do that, they have to be savvy in how they market their product, especially nowadays with the vast reach of social media.

To think that GGG won't take advantage of the internet's power players (in all meanings of the term) is being extremely naive.
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I could definitely see playing 100 hours of POE for no cash. But if I got into it hardcore it would probably cost a lot more than D3 per hour.

in what sense? all content is unlocked for the price of 0$, and inventory space is adequate if not abundant. i'm not sure where your money would go other than to make different pretty colors fly out of your character's weapons and things.

D3 it costs 60$ to experience everything. and additional money if youw ant to speed it up through RMAH.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/10/2013 8:46 PM PST
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To think that GGG won't take advantage of the internet's power players (in all meanings of the term) is being extremely naive.


True enough, and my earlier response was a bit more of a musing on the subject and less a response to the actual discussion.

So, regarding that - who again believes they are "making it out of the goodness of their heart" when the debate between Saga and Paz was Kripp's place in all of this, particularly as it relates to what he was streaming and how it is attached to PoE?

It's true that GGG sought Kripp out after Kripp was already streaming and promoting the game to help provide the game more exposure, but I really don't see what GGG taking advantage of that has to do with Kripp endorsing the game, nor Saga's point, which was that Kripp came to the game on his own in the first place.

Which, of course, was scoffed at by vexorian, and apparently led to your comments...which seem to have !@#$ all to do with Saga's actual point.
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Best part about PoE is that it's not pay to win.

Many complain graphics but I disagree. D3 doesn't look anything like D2, it had extremely annoying candy graphics, there is no atmosphere. I found PoE way more close to d2 more darker feeling. Also d3 story is so damn childish + annoying.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0

To think that GGG won't take advantage of the internet's power players (in all meanings of the term) is being extremely naive.


True enough, and my earlier response was a bit more of a musing on the subject and less a response to the actual discussion.

So, regarding that - who again believes they are "making it out of the goodness of their heart" when the debate between Saga and Paz was Kripp's place in all of this, particularly as it relates to what he was streaming and how it is attached to PoE?

It's true that GGG sought Kripp out after Kripp was already streaming and promoting the game to help provide the game more exposure, but I really don't see what GGG taking advantage of that has to do with Kripp endorsing the game, nor Saga's point, which was that Kripp came to the game on his own in the first place.

Which, of course, was scoffed at by vexorian, and apparently led to your comments...which seem to have !@#$ all to do with Saga's actual point.


Damn forum ate my post >:(

Anyway, I was speaking more to the idea floated by some that certain studios are not involved in the nitty gritty of promoting their games.

Now, whether GGG hired Krip before or after he started streaming PoE you seem to know more than I do. However, I bet you anything that they're using everything at their disposal to pursue getting as much market share as possible.

Because that's what businesses need to do in order to thrive.
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True enough, and my earlier response was a bit more of a musing on the subject and less a response to the actual discussion.

So, regarding that - who again believes they are "making it out of the goodness of their heart" when the debate between Saga and Paz was Kripp's place in all of this, particularly as it relates to what he was streaming and how it is attached to PoE?

It's true that GGG sought Kripp out after Kripp was already streaming and promoting the game to help provide the game more exposure, but I really don't see what GGG taking advantage of that has to do with Kripp endorsing the game, nor Saga's point, which was that Kripp came to the game on his own in the first place.

Which, of course, was scoffed at by vexorian, and apparently led to your comments...which seem to have !@#$ all to do with Saga's actual point.


Damn forum ate my post >:(

Anyway, I was speaking more to the idea floated by some that certain studios are not involved in the nitty gritty of promoting their games.

Now, whether GGG hired Krip before or after he started streaming PoE you seem to know more than I do. However, I bet you anything that they're using everything at their disposal to pursue getting as much market share as possible.

Because that's what businesses need to do in order to thrive.


Indie companies aren't hindered by corporate business "professionals", if your game is good it'll advertise itself, much like anything if food is good you'd tell your friends or bring them there or keep going back upon discovering.

Sure businesses need to thrive, but if this was a hobby or something made off their savings as many have said, they don't exactly need anything to thrive, everything is a bonus past release already.

The fact that they've adjusted more in their game in 2 weeks is already astounding compared to D3's 60$ entry and every monthly to bi-monthly patch to adjust a game that's less complex less depth, less choice less everything and still has come short-handed vs. PoE is just sad.

Not only that but their maintenance and application of the patch takes less than 5 hours, sometimes even a few minutes compared to D3's like 8-10 hour boringness of next to zero change and sometimes

or most often, bugs or glitches or ninja-buffed items or ninja-nerfed other bs, and pointless patch notes that specify next-to-nothing like "Hotfixed some bugs" <-- sure lik what kind? if you can't even be specific who cares why write it at all. might as well have just said "Wiped Database" <-- i'm sure that'd cause some panic but then again what database? the character? the one that holds everything? accounts? which? pointless to write if they're not descriptive at all.

To make things worse I don't even know why Diablo 3 needs a public test realm every now and then, it's completely unnecessary, didn't know we bought a product that wasn't "ready" and had to be tested. It's pretty pathetic and I don't mean to be brash here or anything but that's like saying Blizzard couldn't handle their own quality assurance or design anything with some thought in mind? Makes sense for an MMO but a 4player dungeon masher with borderline RPG elements?


You can clearly tell which game has passion injected into it and which one is just a cash grab, d3 reeks of "don't care" from my perspective as a consumer standpoint compared to PoE's patches and patchnotes and developers themselves revealing game mechanics and transparency making the game less ambiguous overall and more fun to plan play and build a character into their universe. If Diablo 3 wasn't named Diablo 3 it'd be an OKAY game mediocre at best. Definitely not worth 60$. Not falling for that again.

Also in D3 you have hidden bull!@#$ like 75% lifesteal reduction on inferno and the actual values don't even reflect the correct amount.. lik 2% becomes 0.75%? wtf(yeah i know it's on the online manual but cmon seriously.)
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 2/11/2013 12:42 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
02/10/2013 11:27 PMPosted by KradisZ
Indie companies aren't hindered by corporate business "professionals", if your game is good it'll advertise itself, much like anything if food is good you'd tell your friends or bring them there or keep going back upon discovering.


You, my fellow forum poster, are being either incredibly naive or very disingenuous.
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02/10/2013 11:59 PMPosted by Ryaskybird
You, my fellow forum poster, are being either incredibly naive or very disingenuous.


Maybe. Or you're in denial.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0


Damn forum ate my post >:(

Anyway, I was speaking more to the idea floated by some that certain studios are not involved in the nitty gritty of promoting their games.

Now, whether GGG hired Krip before or after he started streaming PoE you seem to know more than I do. However, I bet you anything that they're using everything at their disposal to pursue getting as much market share as possible.

Because that's what businesses need to do in order to thrive.


Kripp wasn't HIRED by anyone. He is not an employee of GGG, he just enjoyed the game more than D3, started playing it more and GGG reached out to him for exposure.

Just going to have to accept the fact that most of the power house D3 streamers just prefer PoE now. They are going to make money playing what people are willing to watch, and if you see streamer numbers there are more people willing to watch PoE.


I truly don't care which streamer plays what. They could play PoE; they could play TL2; they could play D3; they could play Tic-Tac-Toe. What they stream does not affect my gaming decisions at all nor my views of the gaming industry as a whole.

Once more, my point is that GGG is a business. And as a business, there are certain things that it must do in order to survive, one of which is making its demographic aware of its product. To suggest, as the poster above said, that GGG relies mostly on word of mouth is to be extremely disingenuous, especially in these days of the far-reaching internet. There are several ways a small but savvy gaming company could promote their game that don't include traditional ads and commercials--like "reaching out" to a certain pro gamer who streams on twitch, youtube or wherever the hell they stream. It is still marketing.

Or the term you used: exposure.

Both mean the same thing. Again, making potential customers aware of a product--which is not a bad thing. In fact, marketing is a very good thing when used wisely.

By the way, I'm glad that GGG is finding success with its game. First, I'm enjoying PoE. Second, the more good games that are out there, the more benefit to us as gamers. So more power to GGG. It's just annoying to see certain studios viewed more as philantropic gaming clubs rather than companies that are subject to the same market forces that affect the larger ones. Maybe even more subject, as they don't have the built-in buffers that the gaming giants have, which means they have to use all the tools available in order to succeed--including marketing.

P.S. Hiring someone doesn't mean that they're going on a payroll. It just means they're getting some sort of consideration in exchange for work performed.
Edited by Bird#1227 on 2/11/2013 3:20 PM PST
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To suggest, as the poster above said, that GGG relies mostly on word of mouth is to be extremely disingenuous, especially in these days of the far-reaching internet. There are several ways a small but savvy gaming company could promote their game that don't include traditional ads and commercials--like "reaching out" to a certain pro gamer who streams on twitch, youtube or wherever the hell they stream. It is still marketing.


Streaming and youtube videos by players is essentially word of mouth.

Some guy plays the game on Twitch or youtube...people see it, they tell their friends about this game they saw, those people check it out, they tell others about it on gaming boards and forums, and if the game is good enough to garner interest players start showing up and trying out the game.

Up until the press tour (which, as press tours go, was really small) right before open beta launched, that is pretty much how word of the game spread, and that is the modern version of word of mouth. They've never had the budget for a lot of marketing on their own, and have had to rely on players to spread the word. Obviously that does included encouraging specific visible players, such as Krip.

However, I do think you entirely missed the point of vexorian's post that led to your post mocking Saga's comments.

That post (vex's) was rather blatantly suggesting that Krip was only streaming the game because GGG was providing him with goodies/money/first looks/free first looks at content/Kiwi hookers/who knows what, and not because Krip enjoys the game.

No one said a thing about GGG needing to make a profit, or needing to be market savvy, or anything else about their business practices, until you did.

02/11/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Ryaskybird
It's just annoying to see certain studios viewed more as philantropic gaming clubs rather than companies that are subject to the same market forces that affect the larger ones. Maybe even more subject, as they don't have the built-in buffers that the gaming giants have, which means they have to use all the tools available in order to succeed--including marketing.


Well they don't have to worry about publishers and deadlines, so that's one market force that doesn't affect them. They also live in a country where the cost of living is lower, and so running the company isn't as expensive - the last figure I heard was that the game development cost, up until the supporter pack donations were figured in, for somewhere between 3 and 4 million USD, and Chris has mentioned in a couple interviews that they would not have been able to make the game if they were living in the US.

Still...would like to know what all this has to do with Saga talking about why Krip switched over, or vex mocking that and intimating that Krip streamed the game because he's got his hand in the GGG cookier jar, which is what we were talking about before you mocked Saga.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
02/12/2013 01:39 AMPosted by Berethos
Streaming and youtube videos by players is essentially word of mouth.


True. However, I was refering to GGG "reaching out" to Krip to showcase PoE. That is marketing.

02/12/2013 01:39 AMPosted by Berethos
Up until the press tour (which, as press tours go, was really small) right before open beta launched, that is pretty much how word of the game spread, and that is the modern version of word of mouth. They've never had the budget for a lot of marketing on their own, and have had to rely on players to spread the word. Obviously that does included encouraging specific visible players, such as Krip.


My family is very much involved in the entertainment industry; musicians mostly but also published authors. All of them use the internet to promote their art: Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Wiki, blogs, websites, even posts on relevent forums.

That is marketing. And it is both far-reaching and free.

However, I do think you entirely missed the point of vexorian's post that led to your post mocking Saga's comments.

That post (vex's) was rather blatantly suggesting that Krip was only streaming the game because GGG was providing him with goodies/money/first looks/free first looks at content/Kiwi hookers/who knows what, and not because Krip enjoys the game.


My goodness. You got all that from "hahaha, yeah, right?"

Anyway, my read was more that vexorian didn't believe that Krip was so altruistic in his motives for streaming PoE, not that GGG bribed him with hookers. However, you said that GGG contacted Krip after he started streaming and I agreed that you appeared to know more about it than I.

No one said a thing about GGG needing to make a profit, or needing to be market savvy, or anything else about their business practices, until you did.


I've already explained why I said what I said, but I'll say it again: I was responding to a prevalent idea that indie studios don't use common business practices, i.e., celebrity endorsements, to gain marketshare.

By the way, not having corporate suits breathing down one's neck doesn't mean that there aren't any deadlines. With the firestorm that has surrounded D3, now is the perfect time for PoE and it'd be unwise for GGG to delay its release for a couple of years as it would give Blizzard time to adjust and fix, and even put out an expansion.

02/12/2013 01:39 AMPosted by Berethos
Still...would like to know what all this has to do with Saga talking about why Krip switched over, or vex mocking that and intimating that Krip streamed the game because he's got his hand in the GGG cookier jar, which is what we were talking about before you mocked Saga.


Uhm, the conversation evolved? You know, it happens all the time when people talk, even on forums. The topic shifts from D3 being better than PoE to whether Krip was paid by GGG before or after he started streaming to whether or not GGG needs to actively promote their game just like the big studios do. And if the thread continues to grow, it'll shift some more.

Don't worry, it's totally natural. Organic even.
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I didn't like Path of Exile my first few attempts trying it out. Nothing I had felt fun or interesting to use. I got beta access a while back so I've tried it a few times prior to the open beta.

I hated the animations, the environment, the audio, and couldn't get interested in the characters. I've since played it a fair amount, currently in act 2 cruel difficulty on a Duelist and I'm having a lot of fun!

Path of Exile succeeds in many places D3 fails at miserably. The music is on average better than D3, the voice acting is better (the dialog quality sounds normal if you turn down the dialog audio), the environments are just as good if not better than D3 on average. There are meaningful choices and interesting combinations, and even more when you start considering support gems, buffs, auras, and curses. The potion system is spot on, although a bit frustrating in multiplayer. For potions to be useful to you, you actually have to kill stuff to regain charges on them. Their cooldown is your ability to kill. You can even make your own "game", giving it whatever name you want, very similar to D1 and D2. The game is challenging, has much better targeting (no huge selection like D3), although it could perform better for AoE targetting (D3 fails here too). I feel there needs to be larger groups in both D3 and PoE, but going out and slaughtering stuff is just as fun in PoE if not funner than in D3. PoE is currently much more challenging too. For those who like competition, it has ladders and of course PvP.

Some stuff is preference, but it is hard to deny that PoE comes out on top in SOME aspects. I'm not ready yet to say "I like PoE more than D3". I had a really fun time playing through D3, but the game fell short in interesting play, and disappointed me on pretty much every character because I expected more (I feel that nearly every ability in D3 is lame). Once I hit end game and try out other characters I'll know for certain, but right now I'm feeling that PoE will win as my favorite.

Again, I used to dislike PoE, but was really hoping it'd pull through so I kept coming back to try it out.
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