Diablo® III

LS and EHP

So, I've been wondering for the last few days..why don't the popular calculators factor Life Steal % into EHP. I mean, EHP is supposed to be a measure of our survivability, and life steal greatly enhances that, but it's not taken into account on the calculators(at least d3up doesn't).
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u prolly know what EHP stands for , now to find out what it means :)
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I think it is because Life Steal is a bit harder to calculate, and you have to put more questionable information in. Your EHP, though, is a easy and solid marker for where your real life total is. It is meant to be more general. Some people add Dodge like Diablo Progress, and some don't (like diablo stats).

There are lots of complications.

Life Steal takes into account DPS but is changed depending on resistances and overkill damage with things like the legendary Sever.

Life Steal is worse for your character if your have a lot of HP/Vit. 300K EHP, 60K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second is better than 300K EHP, 100K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second.

1000 Life Steal Per Second can be really good, but it also depends on how hard you are being hit by monsters. Again, Life Steal becomes a unique situation for your particular gear/build/situation.

For these reasons and a lot more, it is hard to tell the quality of your Life Steal. I suspect that is why it is not calculated. But with people understanding the math a bit more - I think maybe people will add things like this more in the future.
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how could it? how many monsters are you hitting? with what skills? how often do you spam your big hit skills? how many targets are you aoe'ing with your splash damage?
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01/31/2013 03:15 AMPosted by MrMojoRisin
how could it? how many monsters are you hitting? with what skills? how often do you spam your big hit skills? how many targets are you aoe'ing with your splash damage?


That is true, but there has to be a way to at least give at least a decent guestimate. As darkmist says, as our understanding grows, it may come to pass.

Anyways, the reason for my post, is because sometime in the near future I'm going to ugprade my EF, and I'm contemplating whether to get one with CD and a socket with similar dps to mine, or Life Steal and socket with similar dps. The CD would make the 3% I have now even more effective, obviously, and lessen the chance that something will even be able to hit me as I kill quicker, but extra 2-3% Life Steal(even with the 80% inferno nerf) could probably add enough survivability to let me solo for keys on MP9-10, and Carry ubers on MP8-9. It's a tough decision, and I checked the calculators to see if they could give me an idea of how it would affect my survivability but they don't include it in their calculations for EHP.
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oops i forgot to explain

here goes

EHP = effective hit points

what it means = how much damage u can take before u die

for simple math i will not include passive or dodge

example 1)

say u have 200k EHP and 50k display hp

a monster hitting u for 175k damage will not kill u

a monster that hits u for 220k damage will.

why u cant include LS with EHP calulations

example 2)

say u have 200k EHP and 99% life steal

a monster hitting u for 220k damage will kill u

your 99% life steal doesnt kick in

hope these helps u in understanding the difference.
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I agree with Mojo. I don't think things like Sustain really belong with EH.

You should check this out: http://inprogressgaming.com/monk-survivability-model/

I've never used it myself, but I've heard it advertised as a time to live calculator.
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01/31/2013 03:14 AMPosted by darkmist29
Life Steal is worse for your character if your have a lot of HP/Vit. 300K EHP, 60K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second is better than 300K EHP, 100K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second.


Can you explain this? If life steal is the same in both instances, won't the latter still have 40k more HP? Your globe won't fill up as fast because you inherently have more HP but the base fact is that you still have 40k more HP to begin with. Confused.....

Snazzy
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01/31/2013 07:33 AMPosted by Piffle
You should check this out: http://inprogressgaming.com/monk-survivability-model/

I had http://diablo3mechanics.wikispaces.com/Monk+Survivability+Model bookmarked but it looks like it got quite the update since I looked at it last, thanks for the link :D
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"With regard to the healing argument, let's use this example. Two monks, each has 1,000 LoH and the same amount of EH.
Monk A: 30,000 health, 700 resists, 5,000 armor = 380,952 EH
Monk B: 40,000 health, 450 resists, 5,000 armor = 380,952 EH

Since they have the same EH, they can survive the same amount of raw damage. However, every time Monk A hits, he heals for 3.3% of his life; when Monk B hits, he heals for 2.5% of his life. So when we think about the heal in terms of EH, Monk A heals 12,698 EH and Monk B heals for just 9,524 EH.

The same thing happens with potions. A 12,500 pot will heal Monk A for 41.7% of his health (158,730 EH), while it will heal Monk B for just 31.3% of his health (119,048)."
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Life Steal is worse for your character if your have a lot of HP/Vit. 300K EHP, 60K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second is better than 300K EHP, 100K HP, and 1000 Life Steal Per Second.


Can you explain this? If life steal is the same in both instances, won't the latter still have 40k more HP? Your globe won't fill up as fast because you inherently have more HP but the base fact is that you still have 40k more HP to begin with. Confused.....

Snazzy


What he's saying is true only if you are using STI (or other skills that modify your ehp-affecting stats based on dps)
100k hp with 300 k ehp will be lacking in other departments like armor and res compared to 60k hp with 300k ehp because the latter has much less vit but the same 300k ehp so this means other stats are making up to fill the void. Since LS is affected only by dps this shouldn't affect the ehp at all unless STI is on which in turn adds armor when adding more dps.
So technically that statement alone is false because ehp and hp has norhing to do with dps/Ls, unless STI is being used.
Edited by Dougeefresh#1459 on 1/31/2013 9:19 AM PST
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"With regard to the healing argument, let's use this example. Two monks, each has 1,000 LoH and the same amount of EH.
Monk A: 30,000 health, 700 resists, 5,000 armor = 380,952 EH
Monk B: 40,000 health, 450 resists, 5,000 armor = 380,952 EH

Since they have the same EH, they can survive the same amount of raw damage. However, every time Monk A hits, he heals for 3.3% of his life; when Monk B hits, he heals for 2.5% of his life. So when we think about the heal in terms of EH, Monk A heals 12,698 EH and Monk B heals for just 9,524 EH.

The same thing happens with potions. A 12,500 pot will heal Monk A for 41.7% of his health (158,730 EH), while it will heal Monk B for just 31.3% of his health (119,048)."

This. And it's exactly how I calculate it for spreadsheet purposes. You can't really combine the two (effective life and effective sustain) because it's not true that 600K EL and 80K eSustain per second means that you have a 1,000K EL pool over 5 seconds. If you're not taking damage during that time, it's a moot point; if you take a sufficiently large shot (anything over 600K) at any point during those 5 seconds, you're dead.

Sustain is heavily tied to incoming damage. If the 600K/80K monk I just mentioned is taking anything up to 80K efffective damage per second, he's not losing anything; if he takes 100K effective damage per second, he's losing 20K per second and has 30 seconds to live unless he can change that rate.

Once you have enough EL to avoid getting killed in one shot,* more EL is rarely as important as more sustain.

* This includes getting killed if several decent shots land at once, which is possible when surrounded by particular mobs. It also includes being frozen or otherwise immobilized and taking damage during the entire time, which is essentially the same as taking all that damage at once.
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What he's saying is true only if you are using STI (or other skills that modify your ehp-affecting stats based on dps)
100k hp with 300 k ehp will be lacking in other departments like armor and res compared to 60k hp with 300k ehp because the latter has much less vit but the same 300k ehp so this means other stats are making up to fill the void. Since LS is affected only by dps this shouldn't affect the ehp at all unless STI is on which in turn adds armor when adding more dps.
So technically that statement alone is false because ehp and hp has norhing to do with dps/Ls, unless STI is being used.


Statement is true. Effective healing is being described. STI has no bearing on the example given as this would be a common feature, between both character examples to obtain the 300k ehp.

The example simply depicts that one has stacked vitality, while the other has stacked resistance, to arrive at the same EHP. In either case theoretically the tradeoff is that the roll instead of being vitality was a resistance or armor modification.

Again there was nothing false in the example, and it shows exactly how effective healing works.
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Statement is true. Effective healing is being described. STI has no bearing on the example given as this would be a common feature, between both character examples to obtain the 300k ehp.

The example simply depicts that one has stacked vitality, while the other has stacked resistance, to arrive at the same EHP. In either case theoretically the tradeoff is that the roll instead of being vitality was a resistance or armor modification.

Again there was nothing false in the example, and it shows exactly how effective healing works.

I'm talking about whether one is better than the other when it comes to actual healing from doing a hit. Because LS is based on damage there is no difference in healing amount. Survivabilty wise, yes, the first example is better because of higher resistance/armor to make up the ehp deficit.
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Statement is true. Effective healing is being described. STI has no bearing on the example given as this would be a common feature, between both character examples to obtain the 300k ehp.

The example simply depicts that one has stacked vitality, while the other has stacked resistance, to arrive at the same EHP. In either case theoretically the tradeoff is that the roll instead of being vitality was a resistance or armor modification.

Again there was nothing false in the example, and it shows exactly how effective healing works.

I'm talking about whether one is better than the other when it comes to actual healing from doing a hit. Because LS is based on damage there is no difference in healing amount. Survivabilty wise, yes, the first example is better because of higher resistance/armor to make up the ehp deficit.

Ok, let's try this again.

Let's say that we have two players. Player A and Player B.

Player A has 30,000 health, 6300 armor and 630 resist ... or 385k EH.

Player B has 60,500 health, 3500 armor and 350 resist ... or 385k EH.

Both players do 100k DPS and have 5% LS. Both players will heal for the same amount of health per second - 7,000 health per second.

Except, because the players have a different amount of health, this is a far more effective heal for one of them.

7000 health is 23.3% of Player A's health ... or 89,833 EH. So every second, he is healing for 23% of his effective health.

7000 health is just 11.5% of Player B's health ... or 44,545 EH. So every second, he is healing for 11.5 of his effective health.

So, we can see that even though both players have the same amount of EH, the same amount of DPS, and the same amount of LS ... that Player A's Lifesteal is more effective because lifesteal is healing him for a larger percentage of his health pool.
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01/31/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Dougeefresh
I'm talking about whether one is better than the other when it comes to actual healing from doing a hit. Because LS is based on damage there is no difference in healing amount. Survivabilty wise, yes, the first example is better because of higher resistance/armor to make up the ehp deficit.


Where is CharlesDur with his facepalm.

Piffle has already re-explained, you obviously are not grasping what effective healing is.

@Piffle, you know that he's just gonna come back and tell you about the armor and resists on player B and completely fail to grasp that both can take the same amount of damage before dieing. Maybe 3rd time is the charm tho (it is the 3rd now right?)
Edited by Enot#1820 on 1/31/2013 1:04 PM PST
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@Piffle Thanks for the detailed example. I was interpreting the OP's question incorrectly.

@Enot Don't be a jerk. Just trying to contribute.
Edited by Dougeefresh#1459 on 1/31/2013 6:32 PM PST
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