Diablo® III

Retain NV Stacks After Changing Skills/Runes

Sad. So sad Crysalim. I'm sad. I hate thinking what could've been.

They just didn't try hard enough. At one of my favourite games. :(
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You are so clueless Crysalim. I cannot believe you driveled out 6 paragraphs of clueless drivel on how the best, novel addition should be taken out so you can sit there switching your skills constantly to make the nerfed game easier.

Gaping flaw?? LOL.
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02/04/2013 02:11 PMPosted by Mark1030
So a bunch of whiners complain because everybody has all the skills and there is no permanence in builds. Blizzard appeases them by adding in a mechanism that creates build permanence for the duration of a game, and now people are whining they can't change skills on the fly without penalty. No wonder people think Blizzard doesn't listen to them. At any given moment, only 50% of the community will be happy with anything they do, so there's always 50% that will complain. There is no way for Blizzard to win.


This may make sense to you personally, but is too simplistic a view for several reasons:

1) The addition of Nephalem Valor was not in response to the community; there never was an outcry over having too much freedom with skill selection. Any perceived discussion on this was actually about unbalanced skills
2) The way it was handled has not been used in any other cases since game launch - MF swapping didn't go away, which was much more controversial. Legendaries even ended up with two distinct versions because Blizz didn't want to simply change every person's items on the fly (which was an amazing decision, honestly). They didn't simply make the game harder when everyone started commenting on how easy Inferno was, they added the MP scale. Etc, etc..
3) Other nerfs, like the increased attack speed nerf, ended up being very good for game design. Neph stacks weren't thought of when the game was built from the ground up - many skills have really good synergy, but will never get used due to how important certain basic skills are for every class. Depending on which you choose, 1-3 skills on your bar will be shared with the majority of the player base.

To be more clear, Neph stacks aren't something that should simply go away without a replacement solution. It needs a much more thought out and delicate solution, not one like the current, which is akin to a sledgehammer being used to break a glass wall.
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Sad. So sad Crysalim. I'm sad. I hate thinking what could've been.

They just didn't try hard enough. At one of my favourite games. :(


Yeah, it's a bummer honestly, but I still play because the game is still fun as hell (even with 3/4 of endgame strategy literally ripped out from Neph stacks!)

Back when they were asking us in polls about alternate solutions to Neph stacks, one of the most popular choices was just a timed "free swap". You get one or two free skill swaps every X amount of time, say, a half hour. After that every swap would take a stack, or full stacks.

Even that is too simple for my tastes, but much better than the current solution. The D3 team would start to notice very common swaps, and could balance around those specific instances very closely, instead of assuming the worst.
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I accept Blizzard's reasoning behind the NV buff. It encourages a build that works in various situations. Look at my demon hunter. I have been able to handle every encounter with a very, very low death rate. I have skills that allow me to move while under fire and a couple very good skills for aoe and single target dps.

NV is a reward. Follow the rules needed to keep it.

Oh, and for the Blizzard dictating how the game is played argument, Of course they do! Haha! They programmed every aspect of it. Many things they changed according to community input, but even then, it was Blizzard who made the changes for everyone to follow. They are our gaming Overlords! Someone has to make the rules.

I think the current operations of getting and keeping NV are fair and challenging. Of course it is the nature of humans, when faced with rules, to demand more freedom according to their conflicts with the rules. Some of us are completely satisfied with NV as it is today. You others, you seem to want so much more. We all could think of something different. There just has to come a point where those in charge make the call, and let the dice roll as they do for each person concerning their interest in the product.

Life.

I hope they change this rule and make it so that we don't lose our NV stacks after we changed skills/runes.

I sometimes need to change gear and/or skills when I come across certain monsters/elites like those pesky reflect damage monsters.

It would be awesome if we don't lose our NV stacks after doing so. Makes the game more dynamic and fun if we can tweak our toons in-game without losing efficiency.
Edited by Lykos#1124 on 2/4/2013 2:56 PM PST
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Well, you make good points Lykos, but most all players that agree with Neph stacks in their current form by now do so out of complacency, which I'm afraid you follow suit in.

I personally believe is not a good mechanic, and that we are just adjusting our game style to accommodate for it. The idea itself is based on a (very debatable, but rarely mentioned) belief that we should be encouraged to stick to one playstyle.

Addressing that belief directly, to the D3 team (and supporters like yourself) this is a self-evident truth (in other words, it's not open to discussion - this is just how it is without question), and it never really reaches our design conversations because of this. It's a bit of a fallacy to simply assume build stability is optimal, and we're probably much better off on talking about whether this is true in the first place. Tying this to an incredible buff then almost becomes a catch 22, because this buff is so important to the game that it's extremely easy to advocate and even agree with the skill restrictions that come with it.

Blizz also tries a bit too much to make things simple to reach a wider audience, which in itself is really a great goal, but they sometimes miss the sweet spot between customization and ease of play as a result. Neph stacks are like this (and to some, the new talent system in Warcraft is as well). Simplicity with true depth is the best, and if that can't be done, I'm inclined to sacrifice simplicity instead of depth.

It is very easy to understand how Neph stacks work, and just get your game on. It removes what could have been the most fun part of the game however, which is creating builds to counter certain game mechanics. To some, this is a good thing, but I'm willing to put forth that the majority of players would welcome as many options as possible instead.

The most important thing to remember is that true build customization and the Neph stack buff don't have to be mutually exclusive - this is just the choice Blizz made, and the one that should change.
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Well then do what I do at the beginning of a fresh game. Consider changing something. I'm never permanently complacent with any particular build and have made adjustments to my DH skills such as making my sentry heal my instead of fire homing rocks. I did that on a new game. No loss.

I'd say, for you few who are so tormented by a skill trap, to simply look at it as a bonus. If you do not like the restrictions, get some 75% mf gear, get your paragon up and simply ignore it. Blizzard should not just be willing to say, "Hey, guys, you're unhappy, so we're just going to give you the +75% or 60% if you change a skill." Magic find at the start of the game is zero. They do not hand it over to you, and they do not have to hand you over bonus magic find later.

Granted, people want that bonus, so I suppose you'll argue that players feel they have no choice no matter how much MF their gear or paragon offers. You want to ease the player mind and let them have all the cake they want. I understand. Players should be happy, but look at a challenge for what it is: a challenge. NV isn't meant for everyone.
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Bottom line is NV forces you to play the game THEY want it played. No freedoms within this game. The NV was purely a way to force people to play longer. They blinded people with the guaranteed rare drops, but they were so trashy it didn't matter. You can up the number of rare drops as high as you want, but the ultimate outcome is still the same extremely low volume of quality items. The increased MF was the wool being pulled over the player's faces. It's also contradictory to the whole reason they went away from a fixed skill tree. If they wanted us to be stuck with one build they should have stuck with the fixed skill tree. Don't tout a variety of ways to play and then institute "fixes" which restrict them and people will stop complaining. Personally, I haven't used the auction house so my gear is pretty weak and stopped playing a long time ago because it takes a minimum 1 hour commitment to do some decent farming. I played d2 all the time and for years after release. This game does not compare to that. No quest rewards and the lack of diverse builds give this game zero replay-ability. Why would I farm for gear in this game. You used to be able to find items worthy of a specific character skill tree build, which was incentive to keep looking for new things and starting over. Having quests with good rewards only encouraged starting over. Ugh this game needs a redo.
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Yeah, that is what I do (well, what everyone does). An ubers build > is not a MF build > is not an exp build, for example. This sort of experimentation is actually quite fun, and that's why I'm all for making it available at all times, not just at the start of a game.

A much easier way to explain this to you is to correlate the subject to gear. Gear for different situations are not equal, yet we can MF and gear swap at will. This makes the penalty against swapping skills quite arbitrary; the logic used to restrict skill swap could have been universal, but was unfortunately cherry picked in this one situation instead.

The point of the matter is that changing skills on a whim is fun. What build can I use to counter X mechanic? The Neph stack bonuses are independent of this, and already are a technical requirement to get 5 stacks for keys and organs - for ubers, you must have the stacks, which is enough of a penalty on its own, similar to the garuanteed rare drops that occur when you have 5 stacks. They could have increased drops across the board, but this stacking buff is actually pretty fun - it didn't need the restriction that came with it.

For MF and exp purposes, stacks are "optional", but only in the sense that you can choose not to do something that helps you. It is very important to remember that the buff itself is not at fault here, and is necessary to the game by design - the skill restriction tied to it, however, is not.
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I also like the point Finn made about time played, I didn't think to mention that. D2 revolved around very quick runs, done in succession, instead of one rather long run. Pick up games are always more fun to play when done that way, and I kinda miss that in D3.
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02/04/2013 05:19 PMPosted by ellisD
It is there so you don't changes skills every other mob. And for good reason.


What is the good reason? This is more or less the true point - what's the good reason to make it so we can't change skills?

The best argument put forth on this is that it forces us to think of a single build that can handle most of the things the game throws at us. I don't see this as a good thing at all, and I want to know the reason why some people do.

02/04/2013 05:23 PMPosted by ellisD
Putting more skills on the hot bar removes diversity......


This is counterintuitive and logically impossible. Since adding more skills and taking away more skills are two mutually exclusive things, both situations removing diversity effectively means the game cannot become more diverse.
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I like NV as it is.
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Yes the point is called....wait for it.....FUN. If it's fun for someone to change out their skills then why not allow them to do it. We are not communists!!!
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02/04/2013 05:30 PMPosted by FiNNisher
Yes the point is called....wait for it.....FUN. If it's fun for someone to change out their skills then why not allow them to do it. We are not communists!!!


Err... you CAN change your skills whenever you want.

But you will be rewarded if you can handle the whole run with a good combination of skills, though it's more challenging that way.

Me, I change my build at the beginning of every run. It keeps things interesting. :)
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02/04/2013 12:35 PMPosted by CrniVuk
It really goes against the idea of quick farming games.

so you are in a rush while playing games?, though people play games in their spare time...
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Well then do what I do at the beginning of a fresh game. Consider changing something. I'm never permanently complacent with any particular build and have made adjustments to my DH skills such as making my sentry heal my instead of fire homing rocks. I did that on a new game. No loss.

I'd say, for you few who are so tormented by a skill trap, to simply look at it as a bonus. If you do not like the restrictions, get some 75% mf gear, get your paragon up and simply ignore it. Blizzard should not just be willing to say, "Hey, guys, you're unhappy, so we're just going to give you the +75% or 60% if you change a skill." Magic find at the start of the game is zero. They do not hand it over to you, and they do not have to hand you over bonus magic find later.

Granted, people want that bonus, so I suppose you'll argue that players feel they have no choice no matter how much MF their gear or paragon offers. You want to ease the player mind and let them have all the cake they want. I understand. Players should be happy, but look at a challenge for what it is: a challenge. NV isn't meant for everyone.


lol NV IS for everyone.

The point that I don't understand you're making is you're backing up something that restricts fun in a GAME which is meant to be all about fun, just for the fact of 'obeying orders'.

It's a game not a math test.

It's the same as skills being restricted to 6 available at once AND costing resource AND having a cooldown. That is just way too much of a mix of too many different genre games mushed together to create a mess. An un-fun mess. The last thing they did was even make you worse off losing your NV stack just for swapping your already limited skills.

Wow yea we really ARE asking too much to enjoy a game more, that was meant to be WAY more to begin with. hm hm hm lol
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These posts come up (along with every other idea people want implemented) everytime it comes close to patch time (or even the announcement of a patch).

Sorry you're too good for supporting ideas to improve this half-way Diablo game.

This game needs almost every idea ever suggested to be applied to compare to any remnants of the Diablo series.
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