Diablo® III

Whirlwind Build Mechanics Question

With my current gear I hit the 2.5 breakpoint with my mainhand with WotB up. I posted seeking some gear upgrade advice and Phat was nice enough to respond and gave me some ideas. He also mentioned my Offhand does not make the breakpoint with my current set up but could if I grabbed more IAS...

Heres where it gets a little confusing, for me at least. I have read Nubtro's thread more than once and have a basic understanding of Whirlwind mechanics. I currently run without a fury generator and never actually swing my offhand unless I'm casting Whirlwind.

My question is; If you hit sprint while using Whirlwind, will the tornadoes that drop run off the attack speed of the last weapon swung before using Whirlwind or will they run off of the last weapon swung using whichever hand Whirlwind has you swinging at that moment?

I was thinking since I never actually swing my offhand outside of Whirlwind I could consistently drop tornadoes that will run at the higher breakpoint. I'm now thinking that assumption was incorrect and I am dropping tornadoes without being able to control their speed. This brings up more questions... Does the tDPS calc on http://www.d3rawr.com/d only calculate your highest breakpoint or will it average the damage out if you run at 2 different points? If you run an axe EF set up should you be worrying about your offhand breakpoint?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
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Posts: 1,358
I'm almost certain RLTW tornadoes are based on MH---always.
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02/05/2013 08:34 AMPosted by Belisarious
I'm almost certain RLTW tornadoes are based on MH---always.


Just the damage.

It is my understanding that rltw nados speed is based off the last weapon swung. Unfortunately, if you are using whirlwind, you are constantly alternating between both weapons swinging. This is evidenced by watching your attack speed in your profile.

Furthermore, the entire sprint is based on whatever weapon it used when you first initiated the sprint.

As always, the damage for all sprint nados is always based on the damage range of your main hand weapon.
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The damage comes from your mainhand.

02/05/2013 08:51 AMPosted by MattGL
if you are using whirlwind, you are constantly alternating between both weapons swinging. This is evidenced by watching your attack speed in your profile.


This is my question, if you hit sprint while using whirlwind (with your attack speed switching rapidly back and forth from your mainhand to your offhand) do the tornadoes dropped tick off of the the last weapon swung before or during Whirlwind?
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The damage comes from your mainhand.

if you are using whirlwind, you are constantly alternating between both weapons swinging. This is evidenced by watching your attack speed in your profile.


This is my question, if you hit sprint while using whirlwind (with your attack speed switching rapidly back and forth from your mainhand to your offhand) do the tornadoes dropped tick off of the the last weapon swung before or during Whirlwind?


This only matters when you are sprinting from one pack to the next. This situation doesnt require max tdps. The situation it really matters is when you are on an elite pack. In this situation you are spamming sprint every second and WWing simultaneously. Your sprint nados are ticking at alternating rates during the entire fight. There is no way to fight efficiently and only hit with the faster weapon.
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This only matters when you are sprinting from one pack to the next. This situation doesnt require max tdps. The situation it really matters is when you are on an elite pack. In this situation you are spamming sprint every second and WWing simultaneously. Your sprint nados are ticking at alternating rates during the entire fight. There is no way to fight efficiently and only hit with the faster weapon.


When you run without a traditional fury generator you need to be more careful with your fury and often times I do mash sprint to "burn" fury, adding time to WotB by being able to gain more fury while fighting elites. But in some fights, especially with shaman or other casters or ranged enemies that run away, mashing Sprint or over using Whirlwind can stall you out. But if I understand you correctly the tornadoes that drop will tick at alternating rates depending on the last weapon swung based on the last weapon swung while using whirlwind.

I can see your point in it being less of a concern for a traditional Whirlwind build but still it would be nice to know exactly how it works and I think it could have an noticeable affect on tDPS especially if there is a larger gap between the 2 weapons in terms of breakpoints. If my mainhand is running at 2.5 and off hand at 2.2, assuming I'm 50/50 with my tornadoes, vs a set running 2.5 with both that is definetly going to be a loss in DPS.
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Posts: 6,838
That is an excellent question, Dep.

It's too bad I cannot test it right now because I have no gear in the Softcore realm. Not going to risk my handsome Hardcore Barb either. My intuition is that your tick-rates are based off your last hand swung so while in Whirlwind, the same mechanics apply.

I will say that without a fury builder (generator is applied to a rune like into the fray) it will be next to impossible to determine in real time which hand you last swung with. For example: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004011417?page=1 -- this was my build before quitting. The only way I could tell which hand I last swung/threw with in real time was via the critical hit damage numbers from my throws (or Whirlwind if I could see through the party of yellow numbers). Based on that experience, I got to be pretty good at consistently ensuring I would get 30 ticks; otherwise, I would get 23 or 26 depending on a ring I would use. I would say that the 'rate' of yellow numbers flashing on your screen can also be fairly distinguishable assuming that there is a discernible gap between your breakpoints between each hand.

I would guess that your main hand can do up to 50,000 damage while your off-hand does around 30-35,000 damage. That is also another clue.

Hopefully that helps.
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Posts: 6,838
I'm assuming that you use the Enchantress, so here's what I am looking at: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-Rm0Y7

It looks like you're quite literally <9% attack speed from reaching the 26 ticks breakpoint on your off hand. Edit: After checking again, I calculated that you need another 7% attack speed to reach the next breakpoint.

So there you have it. You're 7% away from that breakpoint. There's also the Echoing Fury which is at 0.23 -- that's 0.02 away from a perfect roll. So there are lots of ways to add in the attack speed you will want if you decide to reach the next breakpoint. This would put both of yours hands at 26/26.
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Thanks Acrimony,

Your build looks very interesting. I am obsessed with Brawler at the moment but that may pass and I'll give it a shot.

I am now wondering if it is worth getting that exta IAS to bump my Offhand up to 2.5. I am going to fool around with http://www.d3rawr.com/d but my understanding was the tDPS calculation only takes the top breakpoint achieved into account and not some kind of average of the 2.

I think you are right that testing this is going to be really hard. I can not see the difference in real time between 23 or 26 ticks. I might try a few things, see what I can come up with.

Where is Nubtro these days? Would be great to get his input given all the testing he did.

Edit: I do use the Enchantress but I try and keep her out of the math. She dies every now and then and I think relying on her to achieve a breakpoint isn't the best way to do things.

Hope you search your name Wayneold would like your thoughts on this too.
Edited by Dep#1326 on 2/5/2013 12:37 PM PST
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@Dep

What PhatPho said in regards to the main hand / off hand dilemma....there is no way to always use the speed of one weapon exclusively, it is best to have both weapons at a respectable breakpoint.

As far as your concern of bottoming out your fury, always spam battle rage over sprint, and only double or triple tap sprint every 3 seconds to add time to your WoTB buff. If you need a more in depth explanation of this tactic see my write up in Uberjagers guide section 4.

Remember, always spam battle rage over sprint.
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I re-read that section of the guide. If I'm getting this right the reason you use battle rage over sprint as a fury dump is that repeatedly mashing spring resets the timer on sprint which usually causes a longer break between tornado spawns?

If so I guess that makes sense. I was just mashing both not really giving either priority when I had excess fury. I'm gonna try it out and make sure.

Thanks Wayneold, hope things are going well for you.
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Things are going great.... Im at work today, so I have some time to post.

As far as your concern, yes, spamming sprint interrupts your tornado production and severely limits fury production, that's why you tap sprint 2-4 times, wait 3 seconds, and then repeat the process all the while spamming battle rage. Make sure to watch your fury and adjust how many times you spam your skills according to your rate of fury increase....that just comes with time. With my old gear I generated enough fury to spam battle rage against a single target, but could not double or triple tap sprint unless they had a large hit box and I placed my tornados just right if that gives you any idea.
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Ive been looking at this sprint whirl wind build for ages........ how does everyones fury regen go?

I was a rend barb for a very long time. Switched up to dual wield so i could whirlwind better and i see absolutely everyone is using this build who whirlwinds?

I use Wind Shear so that i gain fury whilst hitting packs. i can just sit there non stop whirlwinding until the entire pack is dead.... my fury doesn't move.

Is there any huge advantage of me changing to this build? at present i can do anything in the game including any level Ubers.....but i find that even just rending even with dual wield whilst whirlwinding just constantly replenishes my life and my fury never goes down cos of wind shear?
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Sprint - Run Like the Wind:

-always uses main hand damage
-tornado ticks/sec is based on last weapon swung
-20% weapon MAIN HAND damage per tick

Whirlwind:

-damage alternates between main and off hands
-ticks/sec is based on weapon you are about to swing
-45%(?) weapon damage per tick

*upgrade attack speed only if you can reach or if you are planning to reach the next breakpoint for either or both hands

*dump fury by spamming batte rage 99% of the time, and only hit sprint when its about to go out. this can be muscle memorized :D

*always wear the weapon with the higher weapon damage in your mainhand, mainly for maces vs axes. there are some instances where this should not always be done, particularly when wearing mighty weapons as your mainhand for better fury gain.

*when buying/choosing weapons, don't look too much about the weapon dps, instead look at the weapon damage. the number of attacks (or spins from tornadoes and whirlwind) you can dish out depends on the breakpoint you can achieve provided by your overall paper APS, not the weapon dps (which is just a minor part of the equation). this entails that SOMETIMES, a very fast dagger in offhand can lower your tdps because of its inherent low weapon damage, primarily because WW damage calculation is about 2-3 times stronger than SRLTW, not to mention its proc coefficient higher than SRLTW.

@Gooner

Your build works, but thats probably not the most efficient way of doing things. According to your profile, you have 33% crit chance. That's more than plenty for decent fury generation (using Into the Fray). You should change Marauder's Rage to Into the Fray as it's build's primary fury generator and change WoTB Insanity to Thrive in Chaos for even more of everything (over time).

Standard dual tornado build:

bash - instigation
whirlwind - hurricane
wrath of the berserker - thrive in chaos
sprint - run like the wind
battle rage - into the fray
extra skill slot, usually for war cry impunity or overpower killing spree
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thanks mate, will give it a go for sure.
Cant hurt trying, i can do absolutely anything in the game at present with the build ive got, but it might not be as efficient as it could be i guess.

thanks for the help.
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