Diablo® III

lolololol just because I don't have a monk on this account, you go all out assuming I've never played a monk :) cute... not sure how I keep posting about monk-related bugs on the PTR bug forum... oh well!

And yes, your argument about dodge is completelly invalid. If you dont get hit, it doesn't matter if the enemy doesn't take damage, you're not taking any damage either, so you're still ahead. Whenever the enemy DEALS damage, he'll be killing himself.

It is pathetic how you're both failing to understand this very basic concept. You would not have even 30% dodge, because the optimal build would be to have a lot of health/armor/resistance/regeneration, dodge doesn't matter for this.

Even if for some very dumb reason you HAD high dodge (which sounds like something both of you would choose to), with 50% dodge your 10m EHP still stands for 5m effective non-dodge health. Reflected damage CANNOT BE DODGED, so anyone below 1m EHP after removing dodge would still die before they were able to kill you.

If you cant understand the above, it just proves how you have no idea how to play monk or even how the game works, and your suggestions are utterly invalid and not thought through.

.... I'm not sure if you are serious, that's mainly what I'm trying to explain and yes I know that you need to focus on HP/rege but not on armor/res lol.. you fail to understand the mitigation that is linked with MoR. That is the reason the mantra must be rebuilt in a better form or something different, because you get the mitigation on all the defensive stats and even your main stats that is dex : giving you dodge and even armor if you have Seize the initiative. Of course you don't build around dodge but still its linked with ur main stats... And you need to attack even if you try to build around a futur reflect-build for spirit rege or leech I would assume ( LOH in this case because life steal is useless in PVP)

+1

looks good to me

02/08/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Koric

lolololol just because I don't have a monk on this account, you go all out assuming I've never played a monk :) cute... not sure how I keep posting about monk-related bugs on the PTR bug forum... oh well!

oh snap, so when in doubt, bust out the "I have x char on my other account" excuse?
if you really had a monk, you would know that this mantra is completely broken.
of course you're not sure how you keep posting about monk related bugs,
you don't know anything about monks nor bugs. :D

And yes, your argument about dodge is completelly invalid. If you dont get hit, it doesn't matter if the enemy doesn't take damage, you're not taking any damage either, so you're still ahead. Whenever the enemy DEALS damage, he'll be killing himself.

you don't get it, the whole point of MoR is to counter damage when you get hit,
MoR doesn't just reflect damage normally, it converts a % of the mitigated damage, into holy damage and sends it back.
Even while on high MP and removing gear, mobs are still taking only ~15k with MoR.
(if they hit)

and enemies can't kill themselves even if it gets fixed to unmitigated, because in high MP they have tens of millions HP, it would still take a while to chip down their HP on their attacks alone.
And who would build a total meat tank just to take hits to kill stuff, people who play monks like to use their fists, last time I checked.

It is pathetic how you're both failing to understand this very basic concept. You would not have even 30% dodge, because the optimal build would be to have a lot of health/armor/resistance/regeneration, dodge doesn't matter for this.

No it doesn't, "the optimal" build doesn't have to have high health/armor/resistance blah blah, in pve, I have 200k dps unbuffed, I buff to half a million dps, mobs die before I dent, wtf do I need super EHP for? and in pvp gear, I have high ehp / balanced with some damage,
AND still can't make MoR work good in either place.

See, it's not one troll rune like WD's Angry Bird rune or w/e its name is,
it's a whole mantra, 5 skills utterly gimped.

Even if for some very dumb reason you HAD high dodge (which sounds like something both of you would choose to), with 50% dodge your 10m EHP still stands for 5m effective non-dodge health. Reflected damage CANNOT BE DODGED, so anyone below 1m EHP after removing dodge would still die before they were able to kill you.[quote]

here's where you fail again, broseph.
All monks have at least 40% dodge, great monks stand at 50% dodge without even stacking dodge. And for MoR to reflect, the enemy attacks need to be taken and not dodged.

The reason why MoR fails is because we can only use it for the runes, and there's only 2 viable runes, and that's transgression and collateral damage, both being already gimped in nature.
It's a mantra with a great concept that has no justice done whatsoever.
Leaving it the way it is, is anti-build variety.

[quote]If you cant understand the above, it just proves how you have no idea how to play monk or even how the game works, and your suggestions are utterly invalid and not thought through.

see, if we don't know how to play monk,
then you must be in the wizard autistic kindergarten.
cuz I see a wizard wearing blackthorne and echoing fury, trying to be a monk,
while using buffed profile to hide your 170k actual dps, which is pretty bad for a wizard.

And you're using healing blade to proc Archon critical mass, :o you might as well reroll cuz you don't know wizard either, so then what are you doing talking about monks? lol

and last but not least, your rings don't even have crit chance.
bro, do you even lift? :D

I have returned

Koric, your entire argument can be summed up like this:

"The skill is useless, and any change will make it OP, so it shouldn't be changed."

That's a ridiculous stance. The truth is, this mantra is useless. Retribution is only useful in a party in which another monk is already running Conviction. Believe it or not, you can actually improve a skill so it can be useful without being OP. If you can't acknowledge that simple fact, you should simply troll somewhere else.

Blizzard already codes players as elites. The skill could have innate elite reduction, like Blinding Flash's blind effect used to, or Blizzard could create a new class (I mean from a coding perspective, not a character class) and thereby reduce this skill's effectiveness in PvP. (BTW, PvP balance is not a reason to keep a skill castrated. Blizzard is already on board with this idea: it's clear they don't give two cents about PvP balance right now, hence brawling.)

Anyway, +5, which is roughly one for each completely worthless option for this skill.

and in pvp, it's something like this,
guy hits you > you got MoR on > damage goes through the screen of armor, res, reductions, blocks, etc > turns into a mitigated number > number gets converted a % to another number > you send that number back "as holy damage" > it goes through the guy's screen of armor, res, reduction, blocks, etc. > guy takes the gimped damage, as holy..

and to use an analogy to describe it, would be something like this :
an archer shoots an arrow, that arrow goes through 20 trees branches, finally gets to the target, bounces right off, cuz its momentum was greatly diminished on the way.

So what we're saying is,
- don't make MoR OP, just move some of the trees
out of the way... Make straight a path for the Arrow of Retribution!! >:D

Yes, something needs to be done about MoR. No real reason to use it.

It's completely outclassed by MoC as a DMG dealing mantra.

and to use an analogy to describe it, would be something like this :
an archer shoots an arrow, that arrow goes through 20 trees branches, finally gets to the target, bounces right off, cuz its momentum was greatly diminished on the way.

So what we're saying is,
- don't make MoR OP, just move some of the trees
out of the way... Make straight a path for the Arrow of Retribution!! >:D

This is a great analogy.

+5 for this thread (same reason as Vrkhyz).

another !@#$ty monk skill, nothing new, lolzz.. be nice if this was changed to something like mantra for life leech, give everyone member within range a 3% life leech, or something.

02/07/2013 05:26 AMPosted by CountFury

can we do something about this.

I hope so, CountFury. I certainly hope so.

agree it should at least be as powerful as Reflect Damage elites. The runes could use a lot of work as well. Instead of only being a melee reflect, it should just reflect everything like Reflect damage and all runes should be adjusted/buffed.

I agree. Blues have already said that players are elite, after all.

02/08/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Koric

There will always be sucky skills. Give up and use the other ones.

No. I'm sorry that you're feeling so low, but why should we give up? We're trying to convince Blizzard to make this a better game for everybody, including you.

02/08/2013 09:25 AMPosted by Koric

Oh yeah, I forgot you're only looking at your own class when requesting buffs.

Again, no. We may not know about your favorite class to intelligently suggest buffs that would improve your experience; we're focusing on what we know best. If you want to start a thread of your own and suggest some, feel free; link it back here, so we can check out your ideas, and support if they seem reasonable. Fair enough?

Mantra of Retribution:
Base Ability: Now deals 10% weapon damage and 40% of sustained damage, Double upon activation
Retaliation: Increases effect to 25% weapon damage and 60% sustained, Now works on ranged attacks.
Transgression: Now provides 12% IAS.
Indignation: Increased stun chance to 50% up from 10.
Against All Odds: When reflecting damage done to you, Mantra of Retribution has a chance to restore 3 Spirit to you and 10% of your max health to any nearby allies.
Collateral Damage: An attacker that is damaged by Mantra of Retribution has a 30% chance to suffer a feedback blast, dealing 45% weapon damage as Holy to itself and nearby enemies. This effect can also trigger on a block or dodge.

Thoughts: I like the idea of MoR returning a % of the damage sustained. It doesn't feel right to me without it. I feel like adding a small amount of weapon damage to the base skill would be better. This would allow it to still scale with your weapon but also given my proposed changes it would be useful (decoy, earth ally). The earth ally chance would be 20% weapon damage and 80% sustained. Retaliation has the big reflect rune, Transgression IAS, Indignation = CC, and Against All Odds is more of a survival one. Also in party play could be interesting to heal others. I like keeping the extra weapon damage of Collateral Damage. I feel it gives this skill a lot more options.

Other skills changing to tie in with MoR

Blinding Flash
Base Skill: No change.
Self Reflection: Instead of blinding foes, create a decoy of yourself that lasts 3 seconds. The decoy has the taunt effect( of the templar), has 0 damage reduction, 100,000 health, and regens 100,000 health per second

Mystic Ally
Earth Ally: Earth Ally gains thorns. In addition the earth ally gains double the damage the effect of MoR.

Guiding Light
Allies under the effect of a mantra have damage increased by 16%.

This one would work with MoH and MoE as well.

Great ideas.

is useless even in pvp.

and we thought for months it would be better in the arena,
because it has always been useless in pve.

now some of its runes are not too bad,
but the mantra itself's damage reflection is totally horrible.

can we do something about this.

Monk: Mantra of Retribution
"Recite a Mantra that causes you and your allies within 40 yards to reflect melee damage back at enemies, dealing Holy damage equal to 40% of the damage sustained. The effect lasts for 3 minutes.

For 3 seconds after activation, the effect on you increases to 80% of the damage sustained."

Barb: Tough as Nails
"Increases Armor by 25%.
Thorns damage dealt increased by 50%."

it is my opinion that they need to change mantra of retribution to buff thorns. as example, if a barb had 6k thorns and put on the "Tough as Nails" passive they would then have 9k thorns. a monk that has 6k still has 6k if they use "Mantra of Retribution". the only difference is that a heavy geared monk with lots of mitigation will take less damage and as the Mantra works now will reflect less damage.

so i think it should be changed to:
Monk: Mantra of Retribution
"Recite a Mantra that increases Thorns damage dealt by 34% for you and your allies within 40 yards. The effect lasts for 3 minutes.

For 3 seconds after activation, the effect on you increases to 68%."

Retaliation
"Increases the amount of Thorns damage dealt to 50%."

Collateral Damage
"An attacker that is damaged by Thorns has a 30% chance to suffer a feedback blast, dealing 45% weapon damage as Holy to itself and nearby enemies."

nah, man. That would make it still as bad, maybe worse
because most ppl have very little to no thorns.
So 34% of 0 thorns.. is still 0 thorns, lol.

nah, man. That would make it still as bad, maybe worse
because most ppl have very little to no thorns.
So 34% of 0 thorns.. is still 0 thorns, lol.

thats the point.
right now thorns is in little use by most people. i think we can say that there are also many that think mantra of ret is sucking right now. so make mantra buff thorns. you take care of both problems. people can make a thorns build or they can go to one of the other mantras.