Diablo® III

Imagine a Bucket...

02/07/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Drothvader
So given our dilemma, how would you stop the bucket from overflowing?


Drill a hole in the bottom...you can figure out whatever that means in your retarded bucket analogy
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Make the bucket only hold the "junk" water. Keep the pure or good water out of the bucket.

I fill a bucket up with hose water, I'll pour good pure water into a glass. I don't let people drink out of my glass, that glass is mine. The bucket of water however is just the bare minimum life force to get by.

In other words, keep all the good or high end items (legendaries/sets) out of the AH (bind them to the account), and just allow the rest of the items to come and go out of that AH (bucket).

People are dead set against any WoW mechanics in the game.. but guess what, if the WoW influenced AH is in the game, then sorry, the mechanics behind it that made it work need to be there as well.. aka nearly all top end items you can't buy there.

IMO, no legendaries or sets should be allowed on the AH or RMAH, despite how good or crappy they are. By posting them there it completely de-voids the legendary name.
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The actual root of the problem isn't really the bucket and the water in it.

It's the herding of everyone to use the bucket, and crippling anyone who doesn't want to use the bucket. It's about making the bucket such a huge central feature/focus of the game, when it should just be an extra option for the impatient or the lazy, instead of being practically a necessity.

Because of that focus on the bucket, any issues or negatives that involve the bucket directly compromise the entire experience to a much larger degree than it otherwise would. To use your analogy, by herding everyone towards the bucket, a lot of people feel unhappy because

1) The feeling of freedom of choice (real or not) is reduced or lost << which is actually the huge difference between D2 and D3. If you read a lot of the reasons behind the bashing D3, a large amount of it boils down to this in some shape or form.
2) Contaminated water in the bucket really spoils the experience for people << which is why there is so much rage about the cost of items, gold inflation, bots, dupes, etc. D2 had those too, but you don't see people raging about them to the same degree as they do for D3. Why? Refer to #1 above.

That's what makes so many people rage about the bucket and its existence in-game. Even in WoW (a game that has the bucket imprinted all the way in), the bucket is a secondary tool, because the majority of the stuff you'd wear / use comes DIRECTLY from defeating content. Kill mobs, loot drops, pick it up, process it or trade something in game via a vendor, and use it. The bucket only served as a way to save time (e.g. buying consumables and gems instead of farming for it) or getting quicker access to gear which you could get just as easily without the bucket.

For that reason alone, I'm hoping the BoA crafting gear in 1.07 really turns out to be a good and more realistic way for everyone to get some good quality gear. Why? Because it will be 1 thing that doesn't scream BUCKET BUCKET BUCKET BUCKET, which is really rare in this game.
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OP uses water as an analogy, every human needs water. so the bucket is appealing.

By saying the AH is the bucket that would make the items the water, and anybody that tried Diablo 3 knows the items leave a lot to be desired, unlike water which is life giving.

Before you can address issues like gold sinks, and Auction House structure, you have to make sure the product being sold is indeed desirable, which it's not.

OP seems oblivious on how the AH was designed let alone how to fix it. The itemization was designed to be totally linear with tiny stat upgrades and pretty much all classes have the same BiS items which only vary based on what is your main stat. If the game had items diverse enough to actually spawn different builds (when is the last time any of the top threads discuss viable item builds instead of "how to fix d3") it would remove the monopoly on the witching hour and other "BiS" items. The itemization was intentionally designed so that everyone wants the same items and that increases AH costs and 15%.

Blizzard supports multiboxing, because in the end they sell that many more boxes. While some games magically seem to be able to avoid rampant botting and hack program blizzard is notorious for doing nothing, ever. This policy of doing nothing, ever also applies in how they dev games and interact with their player base. I'd have to assume, based on multiple factors, that as long as you buy the accounts blizzard really doesnt care if you bot or not. It was designed into the system that botting and BiS items all increase this 15% cut, isn't that convenient? People bot on streams, large botters claim Blizzard's warden does nothing to stop botting except periodical ban waves which cause botters to rebuy the boxes.

So here we are with suggestions for the mighty Activision on how to fix a game that isn't broken for them, in fact its working as intended.
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I can't believe what retarded ideas are posted here.
When I find a nice item which I don't need myself, I want to sell it. And if it doesn't sell right away, I want to relist it. Now what is wrong with that?
The 10 item auction limit prevents listing of crap items well enough. And they don't turn up in searches anyway. So what is the problem again?
I have bought the game. So I want to experience the content I have payed for. I want to trade with others (through the AH) so I can get fire walkers, skorn, endless path, whatever. And if I don't like what I bought I want to resell it without any silly limiting rules.

If you don't like the AH, don't use it. Period. Play the game with what you found. There is no disadvantage for you versus AH users, since there is no competition anyway. Don't make silly suggestions to break the game for others when you don't want the AH in the first place.

And regarding RMAH - numbers have never been posted, but I don't think much sells there, since you can play the game just fine without it. So it's really no concern.
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If you don't like the AH, don't use it. Period. Play the game with what you found. There is no disadvantage for you versus AH users, since there is no competition anyway. Don't make silly suggestions to break the game for others when you don't want the AH in the first place.


There is a huge disadvantage for not using AH versus somebody that does.

The entire item system was designed around the AH, this is why witching hours don't drop in game, sell for hundreds of millions of gold, and somehow every class wants one.

You could play chess and say "im not going to move my queen diagonally" but why would you play a game in a style that purposely nerfs your potential. It's a game where $20 real cash can out farm 200 hours of in game farming, oh yeh and they dont update it and theres no pvp yet.

Go head make your own rules to justify why you play. Even if you don't use the AH the fact remains it is the main influence on the items that drop when playing the game. When an upgrade comes, it's in the form of a little more of the same stats everyone uses. The gold you find in game has been worthless for the longest time. Any form of real wealth is only gained from playing the AH, not the game.

The main problem of the game is evident everywhere. Nobody posts threads or claims to be a "so and so" monk or "GTF" wiz theres no build diversity its all based off your gear. Take 2 DHs with the exact same gear and randomize their skill choices and runes and watch how boringly euqally effective they are.

Every post on the popular topics is a "how to fix d3", think about it.
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What we need is more uses for the water. Clearly there is a surplus or else the bucket wouldnt be overflowing. We should be having more fun with the water and seeing what other thing we can do with it besides let it drip into the bucket or drink it.
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I like to find an oasis instead of buying water bottles in the supermarket.
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02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
this is why witching hours don't drop in game, sell for hundreds of millions of gold
I have found one, so has my friend. And they both sold for 45M. Offered for 100s of millions doesn't mean sell for that price. That's what people don't get.

02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
and somehow every class wants one
I don't want one on my barb.

02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
The gold you find in game has been worthless for the longest time.
You expect to farm gold for an hour and buy a godly item with it that takes hundreds of hours to find?

02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
Any form of real wealth is only gained from playing the AH, not the game.
If you mean flipping - that takes a lot of knowledge, persistence and luck. You can quickly buy something that doesn't sell again.

02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
its all based off your gear.
Yes. It's Diablo.

02/09/2013 03:38 AMPosted by p0t
Take 2 DHs with the exact same gear and randomize their skill choices and runes and watch how boringly euqally effective they are.
If that were true I would call the game "well balanced". I'm glad I can play the game the way I like and am not forced into a certain skill.
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02/08/2013 04:00 AMPosted by Duosion
Why, why, WHY is there a system BUILT INTO THE GAME, WHICH THE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND, that completely and utterly renders the game pointless unless you choose not to use it..?


The fundamental issue really isn't the AH, or bucket, or whatever you want to call it. The real problem is the widespread belief that the game doesn't even start until it's over -- that the whole point is to get to max level, with extremely good gear, and farm as quickly and efficiently as possible, for no clear reason. Diablo II was exactly the same.

The difference was that in Diablo II, reaching your potential didn't take long -- getting a character to level 80+ was a matter of a few hours, and anything beyond that wasn't actually important. Same with gear. Finding good gear didn't take long either, whether by finding it yourself, trading for it, or someone just giving it to you because it was so plentiful.

The difference is in the power curve. In Diablo II, you reached the top pretty quickly, and spent the rest of the time hunting for a few points more, here and there, that really didn't matter. Reaching perfection was a goal, but not a necessity. In Diablo III, the power curve is so much higher, the difference between good and godly is too big, so people feel they have to have the godly before they can actually start playing.

In short, I think people want to quickly and easily reach 99% of their character's potential, and then spend years working on that last 1%.
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This is at its root a math/engineering problem that's already been solved in the general case. All that's needed is the implementation of homeostatic mechanisms that cause the output rate to equal the input rate, or be greater if you want to decrease "the water in this bucket."

Imagine you are at home, you may have a thermostat that performs this homeostatic regulation. You set it to a specific desired temperature and it introduces either +/- feedback in order to maintain a constant temperature, as desired. This solves the problem. The Diablo 3 incarnation of this is another and more complicated question.

What would those homeostatic mechanisms be in this game? That's a little more complicated, but we've already seen them mentioned, including: salvaging, vendoring, BoA/BoE, crafting (associated with salvaging & some cases of BoA items), regulating drop rates +/-, regulating loot quality from drops and/or crafting, etc. I'm sure the latter two are unpopular.

There are many mechanisms that can be used to solve this problem simply. Unfortunately, I think the problem is more complex than the "water into the bucket" model proposed by DrothVader (it's still a nice simplification for discussion). Itemization is somewhat of a driving force in adding a redundancy dynamic to loot that's actually serving as a negative feedback currently, while at the same time severely reducing gearing options. Thus, it's serving two opposing forces, restricting gearing options more so.

Affix diversity and viability really need to be considered in non-legendary/set items. As well, viable gold and item sinks need to be incorporated. I get the feeling the BoA crafting in 1.0.7 is actually just a test by Blizzard to see how it goes, how it's used, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see more upcoming recipes and tweaks to the current system in the next patch.

AH flippers are also an interesting dynamic, as they are both taking water out of the bucket at a lower price, only to replace those same items in AH at a higher price, which regulates volume while also driving inflation. It's laughable really. If people want this stopped then items bought from the AH should simply have an increasing delay between the time their posted and then re-posted, or something similar.

TLDR: The "bucket" problem is solved using a set of homeostatic mechanisms to maintain a constant "water" level that Blizzard desires via ways mentioned. Regardless, there are core problems with itemization and gold/item sinks that need to be addressed if the AH & trading are to ever be fixed.

-Peace
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There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, a hole.
Then mend it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then mend it, dear Henry, dear Henry, mend it.

With what shall I mend it, dear Liza, dear Liza?
With what shall I mend it, dear Liza, with what?
With a straw, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With a straw, dear Henry, dear Henry, with a straw.

The straw is too long, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The straw is too long, dear Liza, too long,
Then cut it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Then cut it, dear Henry, dear Henry, cut it.

With what shall I cut it, dear Liza, dear Liza?
With what shall I cut it, dear Liza, with what?
With a knife, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
With a knife, dear Henry, dear Henry, with an knife.

The knife is too dull, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The knife is too dull, dear Liza, too dull.
Then sharpen it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry
Then sharpen it, dear Henry, dear Henry, sharpen it.

On what shall I sharpen it, dear Liza, dear Liza?
On what shall I sharpen it, dear Liza, on what?
On a stone, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
On a stone, dear Henry, dear Henry, a stone.

The stone is too dry, dear Liza, dear Liza,
The stone is too dry, dear Liza, too dry.
Well wet it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Well wet it, dear Henry, dear Henry, wet it.

With what shall I wet it, dear Liza, dear Liza?
With what shall I wet it, dear Liza, with what?
try water, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
try water, dear Henry, dear Henry, water.

In what shall I fetch it, dear Liza, dear Liza?
In what shall I fetch it, dear Liza, in what?
In a bucket, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
In a bucket, dear Henry, dear Henry, a bucket.

There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza,
There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, a hole.
Use your head, then! dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry,
Use your head, then! dear Henry, dear Henry, use your head!
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Imagine you are at home, you may have a thermostat that performs this homeostatic regulation. You set it to a specific desired temperature and it introduces either +/- feedback in order to maintain a constant temperature, as desired. This solves the problem. The Diablo 3 incarnation of this is another and more complicated question.

Heh. I like your thermostat analogy, albeit for a different reason than you posed it.

The auction house is such a contentious issue because players can't agree on a time-to-power curve. Some want to be able to reach their characters' potential early; others want it to take a few months. Your roommate wants the drop rates, er, I mean, thermostat at 71 degrees; you want it at 77. Too bad blizzard set it to 55 and locked it shut.
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Poke some holes in the bucket...
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Turn the damn water into beer {itemization, increased # of sets/legendary} Everyone comes back to party, everyone is happy, And the best Everyone looks different with different gear,

D3 is a Melting pot. They strip your identity and force you into 1-2 gear choices. PPL lose their individuality and quit.

IMO with beer instead of water, People would come back, Than you kick the bucket and have a keg with a large diverse different character base. Should be 4 sets per each char.
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I haven't read all posts but I'm wondering if I'm the only one who thinks the overflowing bucket is a poor analogy about the condition in the Auction House.

You can use that as an analogy for items you get to put up for auction because your bucket is fixed (10 slots for each AH). If you continue to farm, you will overflow your bucket (more than you can put up for auction).

I see the AH more as a reservoir. If more players join bringing more buckets of water, you still won't be able to overflow the AH. It will take a lot to overflow ie. bringing the servers down through overload.

However, using water as an analogy for items is also inappropriate as items are discrete but water would mix.

Coming back to the actual concerns raised, I think the problems are similar to our garbage. Yes, governments are concerned how to continuously bury our never ending garbage supply. So, in order to go green, consumer products are now designed to be more recyclable and/or biodegradable. Your shoes, consumer electronics etc. do not last as long as they used to. We do not want the problem faced in the Pacific Ocean where garbage is floating around.

Similarly, I feel that Blizzard should make their items perishable. After x amount of repairs, the item would be beyond repair or the stats would be permanently lowered. This solution mirrors our real life so I'm quite sure it's workable even though there are bound to be unhappiness with this solution.
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"Imagine your pain being a ball of white healing light" lol

Fight Club
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metaphor headache
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