Diablo® III

Imagine a Bucket...

02/07/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Drothvader
So given our dilemma, how would you stop the bucket from overflowing?


Well, IMO, we should start getting rid of this putrid water standing in the bucket forever now, I would then proceed to drip into the bucket a crystal clean water (one that does not make people sick when they drink from it), in a moderate rate (Since people can always find their own water, the bucket should be IMO, for emergences only or special ocasions).

Now you have healthy people capable of finding their own quality water, and they can always come back for the bucket if something goes wrong.

I could go on, but I believe it answer your question.
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The thing is the bucket doesn't overflow. Water never leaves the bucket of its own accord. What ends up happening is the bucket gets bigger as the water entering the bucket reaches the top. Let's further the metaphor by saying BIS items with good rolls are grains of sugar. In a small bucket it might be easy to find a single grain of sugar but our bucket just gets bigger and bigger as it fills with water. You end up with lots and lots of items that have very little value relative to those increasingly rarified grains of sugar yet people trying to trade water to get sugar only find their water becomes less valuable and their ability to buy sugar decreases. Enter the BoA crafting which serves to both reduce the amount of water going into the bucket and allow you the opportunity to make your own grain of sugar that doesn't reduce the rarity of the sugar in the bucket.

I've thought about the game's economy and the BoA items and whether or not I like them. I can find legitimate pros and cons for both sides but I've come to the conclusion those BoA items and their resource sinks are a necessary and inevitable addition due to how the game's economy was initially structured.
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02/07/2013 08:13 PMPosted by Matticles
Don't allow auctions to be canceled and if the item doesn't sell it is automatically vendored


The amount of rage would be heard for generations.



It would bring the devil back to diablo :)
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02/07/2013 08:20 PMPosted by ImJon
So given our dilemma, how would you stop the bucket from overflowing?


Well, IMO, we should start getting rid of this putrid water standing in the bucket forever now, I would then proceed to drip into the bucket a crystal clean water (one that does not make people sick when they drink from it), in a moderate rate (Since people can always find their own water, the bucket should be IMO, for emergences only or special ocasions).

Now you have healthy people capable of finding their own quality water, and they can always come back for the bucket if something goes wrong.

I could go on, but I believe it answer your question.

Ah, so since the water from the bucket is so much easier to obtain than spending days wandering looking for your own water source, or in our case finding thousands upon thousands of pools of stagnant standing water they are forced to come to the bucket.

For those who don't quite follow the analogy, if the item pool was better, and the rewards were more consistent, then the bucket may not be so useful after all.

However, the only way to make this work is to not allow us to transport this crisp clean water over to our existing bucket. (In other words, make these newfound items be only useable by the person who finds them)

If this were to happen, then the bucket would surely overflow. And overflowing bucket serves no use for holding water.

In this instance, the solution would be to get rid of all methods of transport. IE, make everything BoA.
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buy a new bucket
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02/07/2013 08:26 PMPosted by GeorgAnatoly
I've thought about the game's economy and the BoA items and whether or not I like them. I can find legitimate pros and cons for both sides but I've come to the conclusion those BoA items and their resource sinks are a necessary and inevitable addition due to how the game's economy was initially structured.


I agree. Unfortunately a lot of people won't see it like you've described.
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02/07/2013 08:28 PMPosted by speedforce
buy a new bucket

Buying a new bucket serves no purpose as you would just dump your existing water into the new bucket.

A bucket is a bucket and holds water nonetheless. Regardless of how shiny it may be.
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Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
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Lose the bucket, let people find and have their own water. And if anyone wants to bring another bucket into the mix, tell them to take a hike.

We've got a real-life economy that constantly beats our financial heads in on a daily basis. We don't need this garbage in a video game.


This will never happen in a Diablo game. However, the more diverse affixes are, combined with varying rarity of useful items, the better the Diablo economy is. The problem you are having is because loot is "lacking" cool stats.
Edited by BannedName#1439 on 2/7/2013 8:32 PM PST
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The thing is the bucket doesn't overflow. Water never leaves the bucket of its own accord. What ends up happening is the bucket gets bigger as the water entering the bucket reaches the top. Let's further the metaphor by saying BIS items with good rolls are grains of sugar. In a small bucket it might be easy to find a single grain of sugar but our bucket just gets bigger and bigger as it fills with water. You end up with lots and lots of items that have very little value relative to those increasingly rarified grains of sugar yet people trying to trade water to get sugar only find their water becomes less valuable and their ability to buy sugar decreases. Enter the BoA crafting which serves to both reduce the amount of water going into the bucket and allow you the opportunity to make your own grain of sugar that doesn't reduce the rarity of the sugar in the bucket.

I've thought about the game's economy and the BoA items and whether or not I like them. I can find legitimate pros and cons for both sides but I've come to the conclusion those BoA items and their resource sinks are a necessary and inevitable addition due to how the game's economy was initially structured.

You sir, have hit the nail exactly on the head and done so quite eloquently. ^.^
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
MVP FAQ: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4038704716#2
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02/07/2013 08:28 PMPosted by Drothvader
In this instance, the solution would be to get rid of all methods of transport. IE, make everything BoA.


BoE would probably be better, IMO. The ability to trade is still there, but once it's equipped that's the end of the line.

I'm kinda curious as to why BoE wasn't utilized at all. Then again, all I really need to do is follow the flow of AH dollars to know why.
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If high end gear is only available through crafting and bind on account since day 1, this AH mess should not occur in the first place.
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02/07/2013 08:32 PMPosted by Matticles
In this instance, the solution would be to get rid of all methods of transport. IE, make everything BoA.


BoE would probably be better, IMO. The ability to trade is still there, but once it's equipped that's the end of the line.

I'm kinda curious as to why BoE wasn't utilized at all. Then again, all I really need to do is follow the flow of AH dollars to know why.

This would also work.

Allow those to transport the crisp clean water, but once it is sold and drank, it can never be recovered.

The entire point to this analogy is that the model was flawed to begin with and cannot be fixed in its current implementation without drastic measures.

Before, all that was being done was the source of the drip was lessened or "Managed"

Over the last few months, that drip has grown exponentially and as a result, the bucket is now overflowing and only the heaviest molecules (The really great items) exist.
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MVP's are not employees of Blizzard Entertainment. We are players just like you.
Nothing I say is Official word from Blizzard, everything is of my own conjecture.
I don't have moderation powers and I am not a Blizzard Representative.
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BoE would probably be better, IMO. The ability to trade is still there, but once it's equipped that's the end of the line.

I'm kinda curious as to why BoE wasn't utilized at all. Then again, all I really need to do is follow the flow of AH dollars to know why.


Why would they use BoE they never have? The loot in this game doesn't work that way. Loot is entirely too random.

I am not sure how this thread is relevant... isn't this thread suggesting that there are too many items on the AH and everything is dirt cheap ? That is obviously not the case. So how is needing to "get rid of water" relevant?
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I could see them adding something like this in the XPAC:

-Add 1 additional affix (cannot roll the same affix) to your item (can now have up to 7) but makes it BoA.

New, exciting way to sink items and sink gold.
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02/07/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Drothvader
1) We find a way to consistently drain the bucket. (We give players an incentive to salvage)

Trouble is that not all drops (literal and figurative) are created equal, and the ones that get removed from the system through salvaging aren't the crit Mempos.
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idk...how about pokemon stuff
people love pokemon rpgs
it is the same game over and over
the lore of each item should be addressed
maybe have 3 different things of lore per legendary item
this would mix it up and give someone a job in the office at blizzard just to make up fun stories for each legendary weapon
right now everything is pvp so why not focus the lore on pvp issues in the universe
for each patch the lore can change specific to the developers internal issues or fun stories

the most important thing is to sty away from the WOW universe and give diablo back the story or eerieness, the only way to do this is to introduce the items as a gateway into the legendary battles they were...

did you see the new neverwinter or elder scrolls online videos...they are taking the bucket and making it something beautiful
Edited by sonoranranch#1216 on 2/7/2013 8:40 PM PST
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This will never happen in a Diablo game. However, the more diverse affixes are, combined with varying rarity of useful items, the better the Diablo economy is. The problem you are having is because of this. Not "because you need to find your own loot".


I'm saying the lack of diverse affixes is what causes the massive AH use in the first place. We all know what affixes to "build" with, and that's what is sought after the most in the auction house. Everything else is just fluff and/or worse.

You're right, I don't need to find my own loot because we can trade. The problem is trading has taken 1st place to finding your own loot, hence the bucket overflows.
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1) We find a way to consistently drain the bucket. (We give players an incentive to salvage)
- Make crafting worthwhile.


Incorrect. A common fallacy of looking at one desirable consequence of program without assessing the costs.

First, there is already a way to drain the bucket. It is the vendor. Every time a better item is entered in the system there is a tiny devaluing of every worse item, as all value is relative. So, the worst item in the system that was one notch from vendor trash now becomes vendor trash. It does not sell, at any price, and the seller removes the item from the "bucket" and vendors it. That is very simplified, but its basically how it works.

Now, introduce crafted items that as of the recent change are vastly overpowered. Well, this does not change the bucket equation very much. Every person is still going to max out their available slots to sell as much as possible. Only the lowest of the items will be salvaged, just as they would have already been vendored. Best case scenario if crafting materials get to 5k essence, 2k tear, all you have dropped off the AH is 7k or less items. Is that really a problem that we are clogged with those items? Depending on my mood the vendor gets anything from worth 30 to up 100k from me.

Now, lets talk about crafting itself and get into what effect this will have the items in the AH, which to be fair may shrink the bucket slightly. How many items currently on the AH are easily replaced with with the new crafting at its current power. 200 main stat and even an average roll will knock out pretty much anything under 100k. As more crafting enters it will become ever more difficult to find rares for craftable slots that can sell at all in the AH. This shrinks the bucket, but the only reason it shrinks is because drops have become worth less. This is really the only way to actually shrink the bucket, to make items not worth selling. If items are worth more than the vendor/crafting materials, they will end up on the AH as long as there are slots available. Is this really a good idea? Is this going to make people happy?

The problem with your line of thinking is that nothing of value will get removed. This will remove trash from the AH, which should be removed anyway. But it also shifts the balance of drops to be an even greater percentage of trash which is one of the largest complaints in the forums.

So sure, crafting items of greater power is good.

Making drops less valuable is bad.

Don't forget, there are consequences to every action.
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If you wanted an analogy you should have chosen a toilet instead of a bucket and poop instead of water. Because you see water always has a use.

We never wanted to be showered in crap drops nor expect the best gear without effort.

Bottom line really is there would be no problem with demand for items if the 12 million people that bought the game stayed. This game could have and should have been huge.Borked itemization from square one. Trying to make great items even more expensive and harder to get will only punish the players who've stayed loyal. They've been punished enough already.
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