Diablo® III

Imagine a Bucket...

Give it up, its obvious Blizzard gave up trying to make everyone happy. This is the game they wanted, that they designed and it sucks. Better off spending your energy on a different game that has active devs or Diablo 4.
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This dilemma have been solved long time ago, it wont overflow. 1 picture worth 1000 words.

http://elenagrebneva.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/waterfall.jpg

so the 2nd picture worth another 1000 words ?

http://www.happy-pixels.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/eschers-waterfall-01.jpg


Blizzard should recruit the guy in 2nd picture. lol.
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Imagine a 5 gallon bucket, or a pail, or maybe even a canister. (We're going to call this our Auction House)

Above that bucket, there is a constant source of dripping water. Now let's say this water drips at the rate of 1 gallon per day. (This is our players finding items and posting them to our Auction House)

Now, after 5 days, our bucket might fill completely with water. Not quite because you can account for some evaporation (Players quit the game) but definitely by the 6th day our bucket will be overflowing with stagnant water.

Now comes to question, what do you do with that water? The only way to keep that bucket from overflowing is to drain some of it off (Salvage items)

Now let's say some days I let people fill up a cup with that dripping water instead? I tell these people that they may NEVER empty their cups into the bucket. To get rid of the water, they will either have to drink it, or pour it out. (This would be allowing players to craft gear but not let them post it on the Auction House)

Well, the drip into the bucket might still overflow, but the severity is lessened.

Now there are a few solutions to our dilemma.

1) We find a way to consistently drain the bucket. (We give players an incentive to salvage)
- Make crafting worthwhile.

2) We expand the bucket. (Add more players)
- This can only be done by making the game better.

3) We stop the drip. (Make good items no longer drop)
- Completely out of the question.

So given our dilemma, how would you stop the bucket from overflowing?


as you stated yourself, the auction house is overflowing, and the "drainage" is not enough.

blizzard fails too admit that the auction house (whilst being a pretty good idea in my opinion) is too much of an influence on the drop rates.

that being said, let's take your ideas

1. make salvaging and crafting more worthwhile.

this would solve a small percentage of the problem, but not completely, since there will still be no chance that players can craft the items that most builds use. ergo, IK set, Nat's set etc. hence it will just make people craft a lot more high end items, after which they will try too sell them too get the gold for the much desired perfect items for a build.

2. expand the bucket. add more players.

this is a viable solution, however this is a solution that's going to take a lot of time and probably an expansion pack too increase (re)playability.

3. make it so good items don't drop anymore.

whilst this might solve your problem, it might just cause it too solve it a little too good by the remaining players quitting the game. (it would solve botting, etc and every problem there is too find.

now then, let's look at the main sources of the overflowed bucket.

sources dripping more then one source of water.

ergo, multiboxing. (i know this is a thin ice subject, but bear with me here) which allows players too gain much more loot (and gold for that matter) at a faster speed then a regular casual or even a hardcore player. more loot means more chances of getting legendaries or set items, which will cause the market too overflow (ergo make the supply bigger then the demand).

sources dripping golden water.

ergo, the rmah. how does this damage the market? 2 factors, multiboxers and botters. both smell a profit, which is normal. however, both multiboxers and botters want too collect as much gold as possible in the hope of selling it on the rmah and collect a nice profit on it. so, they overflow the market with any decent items they find, and collect all the gold too sell it on the rmah since it's one of the most fastest ways too collect real money.

a small number of drainage possibilities.

ergo itemization and skillpoint allocation.

because of the limited number of builds that are actually viable since you cannot choose too allocate your own stat point and work on a different build you are pretty much stuck with a small number of items (since only these items come close too delivering certain required stats). the rest of the items become pretty much obsolete. which bring me too another factor which is the itemization.

itemization is great, wonderful feeling if you find a rare, legendary or set item which rolles super stats. however 99% of the items you find are worth nothing, white items and blue items are only useable in early game. after that its rare+, so the diversity of using items is really not that big.

and last but not least.

the prices themselves on the AH (which in a way also is caused by botters, but flippers are also a source for this problem)

really good end game content is going for prices that are way too much for the average player, or at least for the player who doesn't have 12+ hours a day too farm. which will cause the market too overflow since the items won't sell.

funny thing is that the items needed for the few viable builds now are in 2 classes, some are cheap, some are expensive. but the problem is that farming is not rewarding, trying too farm the same amount of gold players make off the ah is impossible, everybody knows this.

so your down too 2 things, either buy the item of the rmah, or spend the next few months farming and hoping that you'll either find the item yourself, or get enough gold too buy it.

all in the while the number of items increase and increase causing the bucket too become full again.

so:

supply with high prices --->>> demand with low resources
supply doesn't get sold --->>> demand can't cover the price with it's resources.
Edited by CLFX#2502 on 2/8/2013 3:23 AM PST
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Give it up, its obvious Blizzard gave up trying to make everyone happy. This is the game they designed, they wanted and it sucks. Better off spending your energy on a different game that has active devs or Diablo 4.


Unfortunately I think this is ultimately the right answer for any of our concerns. The most any of us can do is just check back periodically and see if Blizz has improved it yet.

In my very humble opinion I think the next tidal wave coming over the horizon is Marvel Heroes.
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um, how about item quality decaying? an item would lose a low percentage of stats every time it's sold on the ah.
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84 Human Warrior
14155
02/07/2013 08:18 PMPosted by Drothvader
something about top tiered stuff needs to be separate from the AH

The rest of your post is a little extreme, but this last sentence is something that I would have thought would have been in the game since day 1.

I remember a Blizzcon Panel with Jay where he said the most top tiered items would be bound to your account, and literally everything else would be tradeable.

I really don't like the prospect of everything being readily available for sale. It kind of cheapens the game and devoids it of any accomplishment. That's just me personally though.

________________________________________________


Lots have been arguing this for many, many months.

Why, why, WHY is there a system BUILT INTO THE GAME, WHICH THE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND, that completely and utterly renders the game pointless unless you choose not to use it..?
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1) We find a way to consistently drain the bucket. (We give players an incentive to salvage)
- Make crafting worthwhile.
Except players tend to think of "crafting" as a money-maker rather than an item-generator.

That's really the crux of crafting as it is.

People liked gambling in D2, yet it was basically the same. You're paying for 99% trash in the hopes of getting that 1% good item. The difference is, gambling in D2 cost you nothing (gold that was meaningless or filled up after 1 or 2 blue weapons vendored).

If gold were an actual trade currency in D2, people would have reacted as negatively to gambling.

The entire "I'm against BoA crafting, rabble, rabble, rabble" doesn't hold water as an argument. The new crafting recipes are incredibly cheap to make, and beat out the current Legendary stat ranges (look at Vile Wards). Sure, there's some luck to it, but if you spend 30k for a random shoulder with +201-230 to a stat of your choice, you're simply taking a gamble on the other 5 affixes. 30k is next to nothing, especially compared to 100m for a nice Vile Ward. So ya, the only people that are "upset" at this are those that have Vile Wards at the AH (or think they'll get one to sell someday).
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From my experience, the water went from delicious, to a rotten stench. If the water is still nice it encourages more activity in the bucket, hence more people continuously playing the game until they have all classes with decent gear (doesn't have to be godly, just decent). Customer = happy

AH, RMAH should only have the super godly gear to keep blizz happy and not remove it from the picture. Or they should not allow you to use RMAH, AH badboy until you beat the game twice or something. I think people will enjoy the game a bit longer that way, and see the rmah and ah as an achievement rather than a shortcut to boredom or sadness.

Searching for items should be encouraged too you know, AH, RMAH kinda kills the purpose.

Only special items should be able to be sold, and the rest shouldn't be so hard to find in game.

It is a very mean bucket IMHO.
Edited by Timception#6905 on 2/8/2013 4:24 AM PST
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If is just water and it doesn't stop flowing, why people are buying it? And you plan to use that water to find more water? Wouldn't be funnier look for water?

If the whole point is the search for water, stop overfocusing on the bucket just because it's there. It's on Tao Te Ching - the vase is useless, the empty space inside it is useful. If the bucket is filled with stuff you don't want or can't get, then the bucket is useless for you and you should look for whatever you want.

My point is: AH is just a feature to make transactions between players safer. The whole thing goes wrong when we start to hear stuff like: "we can't nerf OWE because people that spent money on gear will be upset". Items should drop in a way that makes people look for items - that was the point of the game and really, really basic game design (it can't be too easy, but it can't be near impossible, which is the same of making people think it's impossible). They managed to get a game that is too easy to "beat", with end game goals that feel impossible. You can't really do much worse at that.

Excessive focus on AH made flipping a lot more worthy than item hunting. So people start to play AH, which is so more rewarding than playing the game that creates an apparent paradox, items feel kinda useless.

It's ok to have a bucket, but change an ocean based on a bucket is a way to make water useless when the bucket is full.
Edited by Baron#1545 on 2/8/2013 4:49 AM PST
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How about making all items BoE? Can only be posted on the AH until equipped at which time they are taken off the market forever.
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First two pages were very entertaining, and enlightening (particularly GeorgAnatoly's BoA post), but I don't have time to read more, so I apologize if this has been mentioned...

Making crafting a viable alternative to the AH would do wonders for the economy, IMO. This is assuming that crafting (rares/legendaries, etc) has the potential to yield better results than just finding said item tier.

With that introduction/upgrade, top-tier players would presumably salvage some upper tier items to have a shot at the best-of-the-best crafts. Similarly, middle-tier players (like myself) would salvage the lower- to mid-tier items. We can continue on down the player hierarchy in like fashion, but I see no need; we all know the progression of player types.

With that being said, all of that salvaging to make the better items would create an obvious item sink (thus diverting some water, to try and stay true to the original metaphor), as well as a gold sink.

Further, crafted items should be either BoA or have a trade allowance of one trade. This is where GeorgAnatoly's thoughts come in to play. I, too, have been tossing about the idea. I initially hated the BoA idea because I'm a "flipper". However, I do agree with binding anything created by a player. I still disagree with binding anything found.

I believe that with some of the ideas in this thread, and hopefully some of my own (whole ego and all) that we can come up with some constructive ideas that Blizzard will notice.
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02/08/2013 04:47 AMPosted by Baron
Excessive focus on AH made flipping a lot more worthy than item hunting. So people start to play AH, which is so more rewarding than playing the game that creates an apparent paradox, items feel kinda useless.
But you had these people in D2 as well. Traders... literally did not play D2, only traded. Good ones sold their D2 items for real cash.

And just like the real world, trading is ALWAYS a faster method to profit than earning a wage. There's a reason why bankers and stock traders make lots of cash... and the guy at the french fryer doesn't.

I don't think the entire "AH flippers" argument is sound to lament the downfall of D3 (or whatever that means!)
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imagine my foot.. thrusting forward into the place where the sun dont shine.
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grind for that water and make a long term plan - a few days - a week - a month - then that water will flow for you
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So given our dilemma, how would you stop the bucket from overflowing?


1) There is already a solution in place. Play HC. Items are constantly being "poured out" due to player deaths.

2) Ladder system which will never happen due to the RMAH.
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In my opinion I think what would help the game and auction house is fixing crafting.
1. Bring back the mystic to enchant equipment and make rings and amulets.
2. Bring back the jeweler to add sockets and lower the price of making gems.
3. Make certain items account bound like crafted gear, set gear, and legendary gear. Also if you use the mystic or jeweler to improve items they become account bound.

I think then people would make more items instead of using the auction house. It would then bring down the overflow of gear. Also bring down the price of crafting would help too.
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I agree with most of the points made in this thread, but I would like to know why people keep saying that the market will "crash" and what they think that means.

Crafting is not at all viable right now yes, but imagine for a moment that inflation has gone overboard and gold is all but worthless. Maybe it costs 100,000,000 gold to buy a pair of gloves with just main stat, crit, and crit damage. In this scenario crafting suddenly becomes viable because it will only cost you at most a few million gold to make such a pair of gloves. So people start crafting the heck out of gloves. This not only takes gold out of circulation but also helps to drive back down the price of those gloves. Thus the market stabilizes.
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I like your post.

That is the softcore dilemma.

However, I disagree with the direction you're taking, the idea:
"we should encourage salvaging items to remove items from the pool"
and
"we should encourge account-binding to prevent more items entering the pool.

That argument is flawed.
1. Salvaging items doesn't stop the bucket filling up. The only items people salvage are the crap ones. I find hundreds of rares a day, a good number of legendaries, most of which never see the AH. Most players experience the same. As salvaging doesn't discriminate between a good roll and bad roll, there's never any incentive to salvage a "good" item. Hence, the pool keeps filling up.

2. The new crafting doesn't really help this equation. Yes, those items won't enter pool, so you could argue that they don't fill the bucket. However, they don't take anything away from the bucket either. The same number of items keep dropping, and the bucket gets fuller and fuller. If anything, it would be possible to argue that the new crafting actually reduces the amount of people drinking from the bucket, as there's less chance of people buying items for slots which have been replaced by good crafting (eg gloves/amus).

Solutions:
An item sink which has the potential to consume high-end (as well as mid and low tier items).

One possible idea would be the addition of the "Mystic". He has the ability to "reroll" an item.

For a certain cost (in gold and crafting materials), the Mystic is able to reroll one stat on an item, that you select.
e.g. I have a 1200 DPS echoing fury with a socket, and life on kill. I choose to pay my fee and reroll the EF (selecting the LOK stat), I will now get a 1200DPS EF with a socket and 1 random stat (hopefully crit damage or Life steal).

The item sink comes in, that items rerolled by the mystic have a chance to be destroyed, say 20-50%. On the one hand, the amount of top-end items will increase.. on the other hand, there will be a constant demand for lower/mid-tier items, that are just 1 stat short of being very good. In the case of weapons, that stat is usually one of socket/crit/LS. meaning there might be a 1/15 or so (assuming it already has 2 of those stats), chance of rerolling well.

This provides, both a gold and item sink, as well as an avenue for players to "craft" their own top-end gear. Additionally, the mid-range items that players find, rather than constantly decreasing in value will always have inherent value as they have the potential (and reasonably good odds) of rolling into a top end item.
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