Diablo® III

L.F. Players that think Monk passives are ok


The problem with OWE is not that it's too good but that it is a trap.

It is this feeling that causes OWE to be far more "mandatory" than it should be.

Ok, I see what you're saying here, but the difference in cost between a non-OwE set and a OwE set is massive. People don't gear for OwE because they want to, they do it because they can't afford to not.

I'm not really sure what that says about anything.

Furthermore, I am not saying "nerf OWE to figure out what's wrong" because, in this case, our other passives are very viable unlike our other spirit gens.

How are they viable compared to OwE?

Gearing out of OwE, for me, would cost upwards of 1 billion gold. And that's not even replacing all of my gear, just some select pieces. And that also lowers my EH.

So, if I spend over a billion gold (which I don't have, so I can't), I can have worse gear, and then get to select the incredibly viable passive Pacifism which limits the damage I take while under CC effects.

Except, I can move out of Freeze or use Serenity. And I did two Ubers runs on MP 10 last week without Serenity and never died. So if damage isn't an issue ... that passive is basically pointless for me.

Ok, so Beacon of Ytar! Oh, except with FitL no longer mandatory for snapshotting cyclone, and WoL being so awesome ... I probably won't have enough skills with cooldowns for that to be worthwhile.

TGP? 15% extra dodge? Hm, not sure the 100-150 resist I'd lose from OwE is even made back up by that extra dodge.

Sixth Sense? Same thing.

So, Guiding Light, Combination Strike, or Fleet Footed.

Spending a billion gold for an extra 10% movement speed sounds like a trade that I would not like to make.

So it comes down to losing out on either Guiding Light or Combination Strike. Depending on build, you're either looking at 8% vs 16% or 16% vs 16%.

Is 8% more damage worth a billion gold? What if I just spent that billion gold on better weapons, could I get 8% or more that way?

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I just don't see how any of those are viable given the small benefit they provide and the enormous cost to use them.
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 2/11/2013 3:29 PM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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I just don't see how any of those are viable given the small benefit they provide and the enormous cost to use them.


That is the point that every dev ever has been trying to make when talking about this.

I think you get it!

Now just sit back and relax while they (hopefully) GREATLY reduce the required 1b pricetag on dropping OWE and you can make a choice that makes sense instead of one that is made for you!
Edited by Druin#1518 on 2/11/2013 3:36 PM PST
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I get what you're saying Piffle, its the same thing any REALLY well geared monk says about gearing out of OWE.

The complete opposite argument is that if you make the change as early as I did (in the 90-100k pdps and 4-450k ehp range than it actually doesn't cost that much at all. Like I've said a few times, I probably lost 5, maybe 10 at the most million gold switching over.

The reason I continue to bring the flip side of the coin up, is that upgrades prior to dropping OWE (FR in my case) were just as expensive as the upgrades I'm looking at now with AR. At least at the point in gear progression I am. I'm talking the difference between FR/AR Lacunis with and without CC. Stuff like that. In the situation I was in, there was NO real reason not to make the change, at least not financially.

Point is, making blanket statements like gearing out of OWE is a billion gold investment, well thats just not true. It depends where you are in gearing. The earlier you make the transition and rip the OWE band-aid off, the better you'll be in the long run. Especially if they ever do change or make additions to our passives.
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As I see it, the only reason why Seize the Initiative is almost mandatory is because dodge isn't good enough at Inferno levels. Damage avoidance is great, but when it fails - or most often than not, it does not apply, we still fall back to resistances and armour to mitigate damage and the various sustain abilities (life-steal, life-on-hit, regen) to heal.

Moreover, we are a melee class and often find ourselves standing in nasty elite/champion ground affixes to battle them.

As I see it, one way to rectify this is If we have active skills which allow us to sustain ourselves in a scalable manner - i.e. Mantra of Healing + Boon of Inspiration now scales via damage (instead of 15% life-steal like Shadow Power, maybe 3%~6%), Breath of Heaven scales to percentage of life and MoH regen component is actually percentage of our hit points, you should see more people taking out STI since we can actually rely on our heals.

Perhaps Blizzard understands - yes, the monk class is playable, but we have no build diversity because the majority of our other abilities/passives do not scale.

EDIT: As for Mantra of Retribution, they should just replace it with a new mantra and move Transgression to replace one of the useless runes of Conviction.
Edited by Cyrus#6254 on 2/11/2013 3:58 PM PST
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Point is, making blanket statements like gearing out of OWE is a billion gold investment, well thats just not true. It depends where you are in gearing. The earlier you make the transition and rip the OWE band-aid off, the better you'll be in the long run. Especially if they ever do change or make additions to our passives.


To help me "gear out" of OwE...I need a similar belt, helm, gloves, rings....too bad they are a witching hour, a poor man's mempo, trifecta's with high DEX and high DPS rings...yeah no biggie at all, let me gear ":right out of it" for a cool Several Hundred Mil.
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02/11/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Supes
To help me "gear out" of OwE...I need a similar belt, helm, gloves, rings....too bad they are a witching hour, a poor man's mempo, trifecta's with high DEX and high DPS rings...yeah no biggie at all, let me gear ":right out of it" for a cool Several Hundred Mil.

Good job reading what I said that you quoted. Oh wait. You didn't.
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02/11/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Cyrus
As I see it, the only reason why Seize the Initiative is almost mandatory is because dodge isn't good enough at Inferno levels.

The reason STI is so good is that its based off our main stat. Same reason Nerves of Steel was so popular for so long, despite not being used as much anymore.
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gotaplanstan, I the problem with OWE isn't that you can't gear out of it. It's that at almost every budget, you can make a more effective Monk if you take the passive than without it.
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But then you force yourself into basically having one free passive which restricts the options available to you. Theres less point in taking FS over BW unless you take CS. But if you take CS you can't take BoY which benefits Serenity, BW, FitL, SSS. Or you can forego those two to take Fleet Footed, but the opportunity cost on that choice is even worse.

Its fine if you want to save money by using it, I'm not arguing that point. But that literally IS the only point FOR taking OWE. The reason I say that, is because of the dps opportunity cost in wasting a 2nd affix for double stacking. And we all know that mathematically even now before the RD nerf, its incredibly easy to reach enough EHP without OWE to be able to handle even mp10. So then, it comes back to money, and money alone.

That is why I mentioned the fact that the worse your item quality is when you gear out of OWE, the better. Otherwise, then yes, you will get stuck spending a lot more trying to make the transition.

You think my choice in dropping OWE has anything to do with my low pdps and edps? Not really. My incredibly poor rng luck and low playtime does. If I had access to billions of gold like many other people who regularly post do and had 200k pdps + 1m ehp unbuffed, you think everybody/anybody would question my motives in being anti-OWE?
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02/11/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Demiwraith
gotaplanstan, I the problem with OWE isn't that you can't gear out of it. It's that at almost every budget, you can make a more effective Monk if you take the passive than without it.

I will disagree here. you can gear out of it. Effective in the eHP sense and opens more options in terms of gear/AH pricepoints

Flipside is, if you don't use OwE, then you have a free slot to up the DPS or something else - effectiveness in a different view.
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@gotaplanstan... while it is true that switching over to non-OWE is cheaper when you do it earlier, it doesn't make the great non-OWE gear any cheaper -- it still costs the same to get that AR/Dex/Vit witching hour with equivalent ChD & IAS if you are gearing from OWE or non-OWE. The difference is that for you, you haven't tasted the fruit of >175K pdps that Piffle has -- so the whole phrase "you don't know what you are missing" comes into effect here, Perhaps you can call this blissful ignorance (not in a negative way)... and one could argue that it will take you far longer to get to where he is at (on a cost basis) because each upgrade you take now may end up costing more because elemental resist is no longer an option for you.

For Piffle, if he sold all of his gear at the max value he can get right now, and then try to gear himself to a non-OWE monk, he will most certainly take a significant DPS downgrade and find himself less capable than where he is at right now. And his argument is that unless there is a passive that is out there that can more than make up for that difference, there is no sense in doing this for him right now.

And from my perspective, it's one of those one significant step back to gear out of OWE that will allow him to propel himself many steps forward, but it will likely take a while for him to feel the impact. The impact will likely not be felt in the passives department, but in the DPS or EHP stats that he can't get because he has to fill some slots with elemental resists. And perhaps the combination strike passive can be used temporarily to help cushion the potential DPS loss to set him up for better upgrades.

Using Piffle's profile as my case study (I hope you don't mind, Piffle)... considering that the max roll of elemental resists is 60, and often times, you are finding stuff at 40-45. Maybe 50 depending on where. Now also consider that the max roll on AR is 80, so you are aiming to get something >70. Instead of 4 pieces with elemental resist, you can get 3 pieces with AR to keep the same mitigation instead try to get something that will get you either MORE DPS or more EHP.

I'd imagine, say... taking the requirement of the elemental resist from his VW, getting life% in there instead, and then taking vit out of his ammy, and going for a quadfecta ammy (by substituting IAS with either one of the elemental resist or vit) with higher rolls would be more viable if there wasn't a vit requirement in there. It would be insanely expensive, but presumably he'd have the means to do it at this level of playing if he wanted to do it without RMAH and it would allow him to crack certain DPS barriers that may have otherwise been considered impossible to do with OWE.

For reasons like this, I see OWE as imposing an artificial DPS ceiling on monks that can't be broken through without gearing out of it the way that it is structured right now. It'd be hella expensive, and it introduce a small short-term downgrade for the potential of a higher DPS ceiling.

I guess that's what I see as being the primary benefit of gearing out of OWE. Clearly, I'm still in dreamland as I will probably never attain the means to get to this level, but it's nice to dream about anyway. :P
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devs are a joke. Monk passives are NOT okay. Let's look at our Barbarian brothers:

Ruthless - 5% CC 50% CC
Weapons Master - +Dmg, 10%CC, +Resource on Hit, 10% IAS
Bloodthirst - 3% Lifesteal
Nerves of Steel/Tough As Nails - Armor passives
Superstition - -20% non-physical (pretty much AR)

1. Ruthless allows the Barbarian to equip less offensive stats by using a passive slot on a budget. High range Barbs get more DPS by not needing survival stats.

2. Weapons Master - Barbs have a reason to equip a particular weapon. Unlike Monks. With Monks, the only reason you want a Fist is because it rolls Monk specific stats like LPSS and Spirit Regen.

With Barb's Weapon Master, I can roll an Axe/Mace for WW, Spears/Swords for Frenzy/IAS builds, all sorts of stuff. It even extends to 2H as I can buy a 2H Axe or Mighty Weapon for HOTA, 2H Sword for Frenzy or WW, and any of those for Rend builds.

We do not have that sort of depth of weapon selection nor do we have the builds for them even if we did.

3. Bloodthirst - So, not only do barbs get 6% LS on their weapons (either dual or 2H), they also get 3% on Belt and 3% on passive. On the lower end of the spectrum, you can use BT to sub LS on your weapon or belt, allowing more selection on your gear. So low end or high end, BT remains an excellent choice.

Monks don't have anything like this. We have weak LOH mechanics such as Mantra of Healing and Conviction runes. The only healing passives we have is Transcendence which requires you to build around it for it to work. With Barb passives, you either get more or you use it to sub. It's good all around, and at all levels.

4. Armor passives are obviously better than Monk passives by far. 100% of Vit means getting more Vit attractive on top of the fact that Vit is already an attractive (and essential stat). So you have Armor covered well (skills also add to Armor) and then we have Superstition that acts as AR. Not only do we have Superstition but Warcry/Impunity synergizes with Superstition and Warcry gives you even MORE Armor.

The closest Monks have to Superstition is Resolve. Resolve is great, however we have to deal damage in order to proc it. Apparently SW does not proc Resolve. Currently I'm using Mantra of Conviction: Submission in order to keep it active in a wide AOE, however that meant that I had to combo the passives in order to get the same effect as 1 single passive on a Barbarian.

edit:

Let me just add, DH passives are similar to Barbarians. We have passives that fulfill statistics for either high end or low end. For example:

Sharpshooter - Guaranteed critical and fast recharge time for high crit geared players. Steady critical chance rate for those with lower crit rates. Passive is excellent for any level of gear.

Archery - 50%CD on Xbows, 10%CC on 1H, 15% Dmg on Bows - Similar to Weapons Master, Archery allows us to select a weapon, and this passive will give a different benefit according to that weapon. The bonus we get from this passive changes build on gear and makes certain stats attractive (such as IAS and Average Dmg on Bows)
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 2/11/2013 5:00 PM PST
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I'm not exactly well versed when it comes to barb skills, but I would love to see a class-wide comparison of skills and potential rather than just looking at offensive passives. I am only taking your first point about their passive that allows ChC/ChD buffs into consideration here for now...

Please correct me if I am wrong. But one thing that monks have that may be unique to monks (but again, I may be wrong on this) are a combination of skills that can (1) have massive damage buffs (FitL can buff total damage to >60% for 3s, BoH/BW can buff damage by 15%, Combination strike buffs by 8% per spirit generator used, etc) and (2) our ability to debuff monster defences (MoC/Overawe for 48%, EP/TFIW for 12%). And with both of those, we can come up with some combination of that AND a strong spirit spending attack (like WoL @ 1200% weapon damage of SSS/SA for ~2300% single target weapon damage). We also have a skill in SW/Cyclone that deals damage that is completely separate from our primary attacks, so it allows us to double or triple up on our damage... since in one attack sequence, we can have SW/Cyclone going, hitting with primary attack and dropping massive AOE bombs in a short amount of time... all the while buffing them temporarily or debuffing monster defences.

I have this impression that the difference between effective DPS and paper dps for the monk class to be greater than most (if not all) other classes. Again, please correct me if I am wrong.. but Weegee has a thread going collecting this kind of information, and I recall some monks being able to get effective DPS at 9x their paper dps.

I'm not here to extol what makes monk strong, nor do I want to come across as delusional to say that monks are the strongest class out there. But to pull out passives from another class and saying "hey we need that" without looking at how the skills & passives synergize is essentially completely taking the abilities you are talking about out of context in which they were designed.

So while Barbs can buff ChC and ChD through a combination of skills and passives, monks can buff total damage output with a same combination, but allocated in different means. I don't get why there is so much class envy when it comes to a lack of offensive passives. Take a look at the whole picture, and maybe it won't be as bad as it seems.

And as for the comments that people have made about having fewer passives than other classes... wouldn't our mantras have a hybrid nature when it comes to the passive/active thing? Most monks usually have a mantra on for the whole duration of the game, so functionally, it behaves as a passive anyway... so does that make up for having one less passive than the others?

Again, maybe I'm off here and I need to stop drinking the kool-aid... but as far as I am concerned, it isn't nearly as bad as many people seem to make it.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 2/11/2013 5:27 PM PST
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02/11/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Druin
I just don't see how any of those are viable given the small benefit they provide and the enormous cost to use them.


That is the point that every dev ever has been trying to make when talking about this.

I think you get it!

Now just sit back and relax while they (hopefully) GREATLY reduce the required 1b pricetag on dropping OWE and you can make a choice that makes sense instead of one that is made for you!

Unless they change how the game works - not just change how OwE works or how single resists work - nothing is going to reduce that pricetag. All Resist gear is ridiculously expensive because it's basically necessary for almost everyone. I cannot conceive what they would change that would reduce the amount of resist required.


Point is, making blanket statements like gearing out of OWE is a billion gold investment, well thats just not true. It depends where you are in gearing. The earlier you make the transition and rip the OWE band-aid off, the better you'll be in the long run. Especially if they ever do change or make additions to our passives.

Well of course the price depends on what your current level of gear was. That's why I used myself as an example, because I've looked through the AH and planned how much I would need. 1 billion wasn't a made up number, it was a (admittedly quickly) researched number.

I'm not sure that I agree with your statement about being better in the long run by dumping OwE. I will only be better off in the long run if they change some of the other passives.

02/11/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Demiwraith
gotaplanstan, I the problem with OWE isn't that you can't gear out of it. It's that at almost every budget, you can make a more effective Monk if you take the passive than without it.

Completely agree with this.


Its fine if you want to save money by using it, I'm not arguing that point. But that literally IS the only point FOR taking OWE. The reason I say that, is because of the dps opportunity cost in wasting a 2nd affix for double stacking.

People keep saying this, but it is simply NOT TRUE.

Or, I guess, in most cases, it's not true. If you geared oddly, then it might be true.

Let's start off looking at my gear, as an example. Where have I double stacked resists? On my shoulders, boots, and bracers. So if I dropped the stacked resists there, what other DPS rolls could I pick up? Well, on bracers, probably not anything else; maybe I could find a pair with a higher vit roll, but given that my bracers have a non-ideal Str roll already, I could have higher vit with my current ones (just couldn't afford them). Looking in the AH right now, there are only 2 pages (second is not full) of bracers with 150+ dex, 70+ vit, 5.5+ cc, and 50+ AR. The cheapest is 50 million. The cheapest with a noticeably higher vit roll is 150 million, though, amusingly enough, it also has a double stacked resist!

Ok so shoulders - obviously I would want a higher dex/vit roll and/or Life%. Boots the answer is clear - higher dex roll and vit.

So if I drop OwE, I can gain dex and vit on those spots ... but what's stopping me from doing that RIGHT now? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. If I lost the 150 resist from those three spots, I'd be at 500, which is around what most people have said is the min amount you need sans OwE.

So if I could stand to do that right now, while I still have OwE ... what am I actually gaining from dropping it? Nothing.

Let's look at someone else's profile - Demi's.

Demi has double stacked resist on his shoulders, bracers, boots, and belt.

We've covered bracers above in my example. A second resist there isn't stopping you from getting high dex and high vit rolls.

What about his belt? He's got str and int rolls on his belt, so it's not really the Poison roll that's holding the dex/vit back. This is similar to the bracers, except you don't even need CC here so plenty of affixes to spare.

His boots are basically the same situation as mine.

His shoulders actually already have a high dex roll, but he has no vit on them. He could gain it there. Then again, they also have a non-ideal str roll on them.

His gear is in a similar spot as mine - he's not really going to gain that much extra damage by dropping OwE.


Using Piffle's profile as my case study (I hope you don't mind, Piffle)... considering that the max roll of elemental resists is 60, and often times, you are finding stuff at 40-45. Maybe 50 depending on where. Now also consider that the max roll on AR is 80, so you are aiming to get something >70. Instead of 4 pieces with elemental resist, you can get 3 pieces with AR to keep the same mitigation instead try to get something that will get you either MORE DPS or more EHP.

Of course not!

Realize, of course, that I have three "wasted" affix slots taken up by a second affix. Three. That's it.

So we're talking about three extra rolls of dex, vit, or life% for the cost of swapping away from OwE.

One thing to remember though, is that while it is true that AR rolls up to 80 ... it's not like it's easy to find pieces like that. For example, there are just 7 witching hours in the AH right now with dex, vit, and 70+ AR. There are just 11 Nat's Reflections in the AH right now with vit and 70+ AR and none of them have a second damage affix (well, one has +34 dmg but that's pretty meh). If you drop the vit roll, and add 35+ dmg, there are just 5 with xx-xx damage, and 2 of those have a wasted roll with a secondary resist and one has gold find! So for an extra 14-24 resist, I would lose 39 vit. Looking at amulets with 70+ ar, dex, 35+ avg dmg, cc, and cd, there are just 4 options available. Except only one of them has over 8% crit chance and it doesn't have vitality, and it's 700 million gold. Trading 102 vit for 31 resist? Meh. Ok so removing the min value for AR and avg dmg, added 9+ CC, and added vitality back in for my amulet ... and there are now 3 options. Only 1 has xx-xx dmg and it has just 51 AR and 63 vit ... and is 700 million.

It's hard enough to regear from OwE simply because of cost. But then when you add in the fact that the pieces you need are exceptionally hard to find ... ugh.

Looking at my gear and knowing that I have no control over how hellfire rings roll, I have 10 slots that I can plan to have AR on. So if I am for 650 resist, my current level, I need to average 65 a slot. Except that it's far better to have Vit on your Inna's pants than AR, so now I only have 9 slots and I now need to average 72 AR. And that's only if I also get a new chest piece too.

And all of that ... to get three more rolls of dex/vit?
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I still have no idea why people when arguing our passives are weak, choose to use barb's as a base for their argument. Wizards and Demon Hunter have better passives. Theirs return resources upon getting critical hits. ESPECIALLY considering the spirit spender buffs we're getting tomorrow, resource on crit would be MUCH more useful than anything barbs have.

@gotaplanstan... while it is true that switching over to non-OWE is cheaper when you do it earlier, it doesn't make the great non-OWE gear any cheaper -- it still costs the same to get that AR/Dex/Vit witching hour with equivalent ChD & IAS if you are gearing from OWE or non-OWE. The difference is that for you, you haven't tasted the fruit of >175K pdps that Piffle has -- so the whole phrase "you don't know what you are missing" comes into effect here, Perhaps you can call this blissful ignorance (not in a negative way)... and one could argue that it will take you far longer to get to where he is at (on a cost basis) because each upgrade you take now may end up costing more because elemental resist is no longer an option for you.

The difference, if we use his character and my character as examples, is that I chose to get almost all of my defense from items. I don't use Serenity or OWE, two of the most commonly used skills by monks. By doing this, my edps becomes a lot higher than someone with similar dps who is using these skills.

Using d3up Piffle's stats are:

unbuffed pdps = 172k
buffed pdps = 223k

unbuffed ehp = 626k
buffed ehp = 710k

Whereas my stats are:

unbuffed pdps = 94k / ~114k (including wkl's hidden value)
buffed pdps = 155k / ~188k (including wkl's hidden value)

unbuffed ehp = 548k
buffed ehp = 617k

(my buffed pdps reflects BW instead of FA)

I'm not sure how much money hes spent, but I've spent under 100m not including shen costs of my wkl's emerald. So while maybe our unbuffed stats are really different, the gearing choices I've made make up a lot of the difference, at least dps wise. Heres the difference in #'s:

my unbuffed pdps compared to his = 54.7%
my buffed pdps compared to his = 84.3%

my unbuffed ehp compared to his = 87.5%
my buffed ehp compared to his = 86.9%

Obviously the ehp is a wash since we're both using TON atm. But the difference in skills + passives makes up almost a 30% difference in dps.

The point is, freeing up OWE does make a difference, because it means you require less dps rolls on your items to hit the same effective value.
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02/11/2013 05:56 PMPosted by Piffle
It's hard enough to regear from OwE simply because of cost. But then when you add in the fact that the pieces you need are exceptionally hard to find ... ugh.

Fortunately for you, my friend, you have the added fun of rolling BoA items! Whoopee!!! :) From Blizz's perspective, the BoA crafting allows you to craft items for higher main stats than is possible the way that it stands right now, so it does give you the potential of more. It'll be a million to one shot of getting that perfect roll, but at least you have now doubled your odds of finding it between what you can get on AH & what you can craft.

It may require some creative rejigging of your stats, but gearing out of OWE might open up more opportunities for better stats in different slots that allows you to get to a higher ceiling. Again, it will be super expensive, but at least it will be more possible (if that makes sense) without OWE than with OWE, IMO.

I think it is likely the better scenario for someone in Piffle's position to find that "perfect" or BiS item (be it from a drop, BoA crafting or GAH/RMAH find) that may serve as a catalyst for change than doing it for the anticipation of the "hope" or "possibility" of getting something better.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 2/11/2013 6:15 PM PST
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They look good to me.
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@gotaplanstan

It could be because you only play in a group you feel the need to take GL, I myself mostly run only solo, where does GL fit in then? I cant use it, so I dont feel the need to take it, even when I do high MP 8-10 runs solo, I can take BoY no problem (only useful option), for anything lower Fleet footed to run faster.

Also comparing your buffed DPS against piffles is really unfair, you are taking GL, TWO generators and CS, he is not.

Ok, lets say that you could take CS because you dropped OWE and he didnt, but you still are using 1 more generator then him, basically the 2nd generator is only used as a buff, you cant attack with both together, so that is 1 skill slot going into buffing yourself

What are you giving up? He takes EP-flesh is weak, it is an enemy debuff, so you cant argue compare your buffed DPS with his.

________________________________________________________________________________

I am really done trying to put points forward for OWE, since we have been thru this too many times, but one day, you will find your armor slots are not able to support a high DPS build, then you will understand how expensive and unrewarding gearing without OWE is
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02/11/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Shade
It could be because you only play in a group you feel the need to take GL, I myself mostly run only solo, where does GL fit in then? I cant use it, so I dont feel the need to take it, even when I do high MP 8-10 runs solo, I can take BoY no problem (only useful option), for anything lower Fleet footed to run faster.

Most people I know play in groups. It is a group game after all. I for one play mostly because of the social aspect.

02/11/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Shade
Also comparing your buffed DPS against piffles is really unfair, you are taking GL, TWO generators and CS, he is not.

Actually its 100% fair. I geared a different way than he did, and many others do, on purpose. From math I've read from Vrkhyz and others, I'm also freed up to switch not only back and forth between choosing 2 of FA, BW, and FitL, but also between GL and BoY depending on group makeup. Seems a legitimate point to bring up to me.

02/11/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Shade
Ok, lets say that you could take CS because you dropped OWE and he didnt, but you still are using 1 more generator then him, basically the 2nd generator is only used as a buff, you cant attack with both together, so that is 1 skill slot going into buffing yourself

Yep. Your point being?

02/11/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Shade
What are you giving up? He takes EP-flesh is weak, it is an enemy debuff, so you cant argue compare your buffed DPS with his.

I could take that yes. But often times someone else in my group already has this going.

02/11/2013 06:36 PMPosted by Shade
I am really done trying to put points forward for OWE, since we have been thru this too many times, but one day, you will find your armor slots are not able to support a high DPS build, then you will understand how expensive and unrewarding gearing without OWE is

Actually, if I had an unlimited wallet, the same items I have now with much better rolls would top out around 215k dps and 1.2m ehp, both unbuffed. At least from what I remember, I can redo the figures if you'd like.
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The difference, if we use his character and my character as examples, is that I chose to get almost all of my defense from items. I don't use Serenity or OWE, two of the most commonly used skills by monks. By doing this, my edps becomes a lot higher than someone with similar dps who is using these skills.

Using d3up Piffle's stats are:

unbuffed pdps = 172k
buffed pdps = 223k

unbuffed ehp = 626k
buffed ehp = 710k

Whereas my stats are:

unbuffed pdps = 94k / ~114k (including wkl's hidden value)
buffed pdps = 155k / ~188k (including wkl's hidden value)

unbuffed ehp = 548k
buffed ehp = 617k

(my buffed pdps reflects BW instead of FA)

I'm not sure how much money hes spent, but I've spent under 100m not including shen costs of my wkl's emerald. So while maybe our unbuffed stats are really different, the gearing choices I've made make up a lot of the difference, at least dps wise. Heres the difference in #'s:

my unbuffed pdps compared to his = 54.7%
my buffed pdps compared to his = 84.3%

my unbuffed ehp compared to his = 87.5%
my buffed ehp compared to his = 86.9%

Obviously the ehp is a wash since we're both using TON atm. But the difference in skills + passives makes up almost a 30% difference in dps.

The point is, freeing up OWE does make a difference, because it means you require less dps rolls on your items to hit the same effective value.

1. I don't understand the point of this exercise.
2. I was using a build specifically for the group of people I was doing ubers with the other night. I don't know why you're trying to make any sort of argument for the worthiness of OwE based on a build I occasionally use? In fact, as you specifically state in a later post, you don't use EP if someone else has it in the group. Well, I'm that person. I chose to help buff everyone's DPS instead of just mine. Hence the GL.
3. You'll notice that I wasn't using Serenity either. So now what?
4. What does how much we paid for our gear have to do with anything? Your gear is not as good as mine. Therefore mine was more expensive. Gear costs do not go up linearly; they increase exponentially as they approach BiS status.

Again, I have no idea what you were trying to prove by showing that you do less damage and EH.
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