Diablo® III

who reach 5k armor without shield?

02/12/2013 08:20 AMPosted by skywalkerfx
Int adds 200-300 resistance to a character and skews the table. If you are talking about int being included than a character only needs 400 allres to hit 700 resistance (at least a mid Paragon level character.


All res is all res, why would the source change the mitigation? Does armor Barbs get from STR not count as real armor?
Edited by Coffee#1942 on 2/12/2013 8:22 AM PST
Reply Quote
Why would someone want 5k armour again? It hits a point where the returns start to diminish so the affix is not utilized on your gear as much as other affixes would be (i.e. vit/life) attributing to eHP. I consider 4k armour the sweet spot to shoot for mostly. Think going from 4-5k has too much diminish for the return.

Running 3700 armour gives me 54.1% dmg mitigation. 5k armour gives you 61.34% dmg mitigation... but means you are having to utilize armour affixes on 4-5 more gear pieces which could be used for dmg affixes.



unless you stack AR with Armor

Horrify = 10k armor for me; 12k when I go shield. Nothing like getting your ehp trippled with a press of a button.


if your armor is high enough, it will be the second invulnerable button other than spirit walk, but last for 8 sec.


It's really not as good as you guys are making it sound. If you have 5k armour (61.3% dmg reduction & about 550k eHP with my other stats) and then use frightening aspect bumping you to 10k armour... you are only go up to 76% dmg reduction & 880k eHP... +16 % dmg reduction from armour is far from invincible.

Doubling your armour far from doubles your eHP or dmg reduction... too much diminishing returns for me. 60% eHP increase is nice... but it surely isnt 'tripled with a press of a button'
Edited by ofgortens#1113 on 2/12/2013 8:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
The general rule on armor vs allres is that you keep it at a 1 to 10 ratio, because as the values increase the incremental protection goes down.

You (edit: @Coffee) have about 80-90 more allres than me so you are probably sitting at 750-800 resistance. You have about 3800 armor. Your defense is skewed towards allres in a 1 to 5 ration. I guarantee you that an eHP calculatoor will show you that 10 armor is worth 1.5 to 2 allres. So you should concentrate on getting more armor and not allres.

This isn't to say not to get the allres, but since you will probably pay out the nose for it, armor would be cheaper and a better investment.
Edited by skywalkerfx#1247 on 2/12/2013 8:32 AM PST
Reply Quote
Why would someone want 5k armour again? It hits a point where the returns start to diminish so the affix is not utilized on your gear as much as other affixes would be (i.e. vit/life) attributing to eHP. I consider 4k armour the sweet spot to shoot for mostly. Think going from 4-5k has too much diminish for the return.

Running 3700 armour gives me 54.1% dmg mitigation. 5k armour gives you 61.34% dmg mitigation... but means you are having to utilize armour affixes on 4-5 more gear pieces which could be used for dmg affixes. +16 % dmg reduction from armour is far from invincible.



if your armor is high enough, it will be the second invulnerable button other than spirit walk, but last for 8 sec.


It's really not as good as you guys are making it sound. If you have 5k armour (61.3% dmg reduction & about 550k eHP with my other stats) and then use frightening aspect bumping you to 10k armour... you are only go up to 76% dmg reduction & 880k eHP...

Doubling your armour far from doubles your eHP or dmg reduction... too much diminishing returns for me. 60% eHP increase is nice... but it surely isnt 'tripled with a press of a button'


Exactly. After 4k you are just gimping yourself by not stacking more AR instead, and after the 4k armor 800 AR mark the mitigation just in general becomes diminished to the point where you want your DPS and lifesteal and raw vit/HP% to start bringing the show home, and anybody that runs MP10 ubers with a Barb with Impunity will verify this, despite the MASSIVE stat gains, it is really not much less damage you are taking.
Reply Quote
The general rule on armor vs allres is that you keep it at a 1 to 10 ratio, because as the values increase the incremental protection goes down.

You (edit: @Coffee) have about 80-90 more allres than me so you are probably sitting at 750-800 resistance. You have about 3800 armor. Your defense is skewed towards allres in a 1 to 5 ration. I guarantee you that an eHP calculatoor will show you that 10 armor is worth 1.5 to 2 allres. So you should concentrate on getting more armor and not allres.

This isn't to say not to get the allres, but since you will probably pay out the nose for it, armor would be cheaper and a better investment.


That is an outdated and misinformed ratio. Again refer to the graph, if you are keeping a 10:1 ratio at 5k armor you would have 500 all res and you would be taking a whopping 2% more damage then me, the only way that makes any kind of sense is if we stick to this AR from int isn't real AR thing, which is just bogus.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/12/2013 08:30 AMPosted by Coffee
Exactly. After 4k you are just gimping yourself by not stacking more AR instead, and after the 4k armor 800 AR mark


Wouldn't that be the 4k Armor, 400 AR mark? Or is AR stacked much higher than Armor because it's more readily available than Armor, as suggested earlier in the thread?

I ask because the arguments used against Armor stacking due to diminishing returns are exponentially more applicable to the very generous amount of stacking done regularly for AR.
Reply Quote
02/12/2013 08:36 AMPosted by Aurinaux
Exactly. After 4k you are just gimping yourself by not stacking more AR instead, and after the 4k armor 800 AR mark


Wouldn't that be the 4k Armor, 400 AR mark? Or is AR stacked much higher than Armor because it's more readily available than Armor, as suggested earlier in the thread?

I ask because the arguments used against Armor stacking due to diminishing returns are exponentially more applicable to the very generous amount of stacking done regularly for AR.


Again lets just count total AR as the source doesn't matter int or otherwise.

See:

http://i.imgur.com/m0w1K.png

At 4k armor 400 AR you are taking 18.3% damage with this "10:1" ratio. With 800 AR and 4k armor you are taking 11.69% damage.

Now you can say 400 AR BEFORE int bonuses, then a 10:1 ratio kind of makes sense, but why would you calculate it this way? You gain nothing by doing so.
Reply Quote
@ Orfgortens - Did you have to bring HP into this?
Also, when you get a chance could you check out the comments on my article, Introduction to the Inferno Witch Doctor (on forum page 2 now)? There were some AS questions directed to you in the comments.

Back to the conversation - But if we are going to bring HP into this, "How about that crazy ChuckNorris running around with 180K vitality and a shield? Now there's a sight you don't often see. That's definitely a person that takes his PVP seriously.

Anyway, I agree that at a certain point you have to give up the chase for allres and armor and concentrate on other things 400 allres (without int) and 4000 armor are certainly the yard stick goal.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/12/2013 08:39 AMPosted by Coffee
At 4k armor 400 AR you are taking 18.3% damage with this "10:1" ratio. With 800 AR and 4k armor you are taking 11.69% damage.


I agree, the source is irrelevant. Just take the character sheet data and it will already account for every available--I'm not sure anyone is challenging that.

Your example isn't very telling: you're comparing 4k Armor 400 AR to 4k Armor 800 AR. Obviously the second example will reduce damage more: it has a higher stat total with the same base 4k Armor.

Now consider breaking that bonus 400 AR up into 200 AR and 2000 Armor. 6000 Armor and 600 AR is 11.11% damage according to your graph.

0.1169/0.111 = 5.2% more EHP
Reply Quote
So lets pretend I use 3 pieces which I think would be the minimum to stack another 1k armor, that's a possible 225 all res which would take me to around 500 being generous, at 5k armor with 500 all res TOTAL I am now taking 14.06% damage which would be inferior due to the diminishing returns to the 12%ish I'm taking now.
Edited by Coffee#1942 on 2/12/2013 8:44 AM PST
Reply Quote
02/12/2013 08:39 AMPosted by Coffee
Now you can say 400 AR BEFORE int bonuses, then a 10:1 ratio kind of makes sense, but why would you calculate it this way? You gain nothing by doing so.


I say without int, because everyone has different int and it gets confusing when you include int but then say you need 80 allres on gear. Then people say, 40 allres and 100 int, or 80 allres?
Reply Quote
@ Orfgortens - Did you have to bring HP into this?
Also, when you get a chance could you check out the comments on my article, Introduction to the Inferno Witch Doctor (on forum page 2 now)? There were some AS questions directed to you in the comments.


Whoops... sorry I don't read that page all the time :)
Reply Quote
You guys are confusing marginal increases with net increases.

Mathz. Its hard.

Obviously if a char has double the AR of another char it will have better def, everything else being equal. But assuming gearing limitations the most efficient armor to resist ratio is indeed 10:1. However, you shouldn't NOT use extra AR/armor if you can get it since it will still help even if it throws the ratio off. Its just meant to be a guideline to help you determine how to weight +armor or +ar when gearing.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/12/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Coffee
So lets pretend I use 3 pieces which I think would be the minimum to stack another 1k armor, that's a possible 225 all res which would take me to around 500 being generous,


I see what you're saying (in fact that was my question earlier): that item budgets are skewed to favor AR over Armor.

Is there a chart that indicates maximum innate armor values to verify it? In the end, I suppose your pool of resources is truly limited to the BIS for theoretical purposes.
Reply Quote
You guys are confusing marginal increases with net increases.

Mathz. Its hard.

Obviously if a char has double the AR of another char it will have better def, everything else being equal. But assuming gearing limitations the most efficient armor to resist ratio is indeed 10:1. However, you shouldn't NOT use extra AR/armor if you can get it since it will still help even if it throws the ratio off. Its just meant to be a guideline to help you determine how to weight +armor or +ar when gearing.


You're missing the point which is weighing armor VS all res on legendary that often cannot roll both. 800 AR with 4k armor is drastically more EHP then 5k armor with 500 AR, there really isn't anything complex about that math, and the 10:1 ratio makes no sense.
Reply Quote
you guys are missing a thing, once you reach certain lvl, like I had 4200 amor, 950AR, it's impossible to go up without spend a leg and a arm; HP, regen is good, but Dex is the another king for improvement in survival, paticular we WDs are always low on that, at 25% dodge (about 500 dex) it saves you and it's cheap.
Reply Quote
I think Mr. Coffee, myself, and Mr Orfgortens all are agreeing to the same thing, we are just saying it differently. As can be seen from our profiles, we all have the same basic ideas in mind, and all of us are trying to balance eHP with DPS.

An eHP calculator does the same thing as the chart, but will tell you for each gear piece. So it will help you decide if you want to pay 100 million gold to put more AR on your Lacuni's or your Zuni boots. This is what this conversation is about. What to spend your gold on, and why you should or should not do it.
Ratios, tables, HP, DPS it really all comes down to what you will do with your gold on your next gear upgrade.
Reply Quote
I saw the funniest thing the other day.. A zuni barb wearing almost all zuni gear with high INT. Guess you could go IK doc :P

Armor is key for sure. About 600 AR is enough I find. One thing I totally forgot about was using gruesome feast because it not only adds DPS from an INT boost but you gain AR too. I noticed in a few elite fights I jumped to 740 AR from 600 from globes.
Reply Quote
INT CC/CD IK gloves can save you if you are having trouble surviving Rak's charge on MP10. % mitigation is king.
Reply Quote
02/12/2013 01:11 AMPosted by Hmongster
armor is such a undervalued stats...compared to the "overvalued" ar,


So true.

I'm over 5k armor. It makes mp10 so easy
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]