Diablo® III

Monk Skill Mechanics, Main v Offhand, CC/CD

@vox

hey respect that xephi ammy been looking one like that for ages.
Reply Quote
@Sanosuke, thanks. I bought it just before the TR boom, but still had to short sale radiant star emeralds to buy at the time :(

I think i have some incorrect information in original post regarding resetting active hand. Am now pretty sure that certain skills do not 'reset' active hand to mainhand (yes, they use damage from mainhand, but will never allow you to 'skip' damage from a low damage offhand). I had previously just looked at display, which showed a switch to active hand attack speed upon activation of a skill like cyclone strike, which uses only mainhand damage. However, upon 1st attack after a "resetting" skill (CS, WoL, EP), I noticed the attack speed would not necessarily change and that damage would not necessarily be delivered from mainhand.

Difficult to explain. I'll just delete out the bad info in the OP.
Reply Quote
02/20/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Vox
Am now pretty sure that certain skills do not 'reset' active hand to mainhand (yes, they use damage from mainhand, but will never allow you to 'skip' damage from a low damage offhand).

Actually, I'm pretty sure I found that WoL's reset gave you two or three consecutive attacks with your main hand, depending on which hand was active when you used it. There's a post about it buried somewhere in this forum. I may even have it written down at home.
Reply Quote
Oh, yeah, right. It's here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004037253?page=22
Reply Quote
DUDE! So much infos in there. Sickmadprops to you today, sir. I'll update OP when i get time to fully review and absorb.

Something was wonky with MH/OH rotation after CS activation and I think you've got it!
Reply Quote
85 Human Warrior
1590
MOE Backlash Damage % is based off your attack speed.
Reply Quote
From thread Vrkhyz referenced above:

In doing my testing, however, I noticed that Cyclone Strike and Wave of Light exhibit some strange behavior, depending on which weapon is active when you use either skill. Here's the rundown:
If your MH is currently active, using either skill will use your MH weapon for its damage, set the active weapon to the MH, and begin alternating with your next attack. In other words, a Cyclone Strike followed by a pair of three-attack Thunderclap cycles will go like this: MH (CS), MH, OH, MH (TC AOE), OH, MH, OH (TC AOE).
If your OH is already active, however, using either skill will use your MH weapon for its damage, set the active weapon to the MH for the next two attacks, and then begin alternating attacks. In other words, a Cyclone Strike followed by a pair of three-attack Thunderclap cycles will go like this: MH (CS), MH, MH again, OH (TC AOE), MH, OH, MH (TC AOE).

This can lead to some really wonky behavior and a very slight skewing of your real DPS, but it's in your favor if you keep the weapon with the higher DPS in your main hand. If we assume that you end up using WoL or CS randomly during combat—50% of the time with your MH active and 50% of the time with your OH active—your primary attacks will be shaded slightly in favor of your MH attack, depending on how often you can spam WoL or CS. For example, let's assume you have no spirit regeneration, so you're relying on Thunderclap to give you the spirit you need for WoL. WoL costs 75 spirit, which we'll call 72 to keep the math simple. So you need 12 primary attacks at 6 spirit per attack, or four three-attack cycles. Half of the time, your MH will be active, and your next four cycles will look like this:

MH, OH, MH
OH, MH, OH
MH, OH, MH
OH, MH, OH

That's six MH attacks and six OH attacks.

The other half of the time, your OH will be active when you use WoL, and your next four cycles will look like this:

MH, MH, OH
MH, OH, MH
OH, MH, OH
MH, OH, MH

That's seven MH attacks and five OH attacks. So your 24-attack primary cycle will not be 12 MHs and 12 OHs, as you would expect, but 13 MHs and 11 OHs. For my Az'Turrasq/Shenlong pairing, this results in less damage per attack but a faster attack speed. The end result is very, very small: a Thunderclap increase of about one-quarter of one percent. Just FTR :)


Today i tested same thing (patch 1.07) with cyclone strike and did not find the same result.

Instead I found this:

    MH active, use cyclone strike (MH damage), then regular attacks: MH, OH, MH.
    OH active, use cyclone strike (MH damage), then regular attacks: OH, MH, OH.


This was based only on damage done and not based on what was shown on display regarding APS.

Thus, using a MH-only skill (cyclone strike, wave of light, exploding palm) does not 'reset to MH' nor does it influence the sequence of MH/OH following activation of MH-only skill.
Edited by Vox#1186 on 2/24/2013 6:48 PM PST
Reply Quote
I just tested it, and it still works the way I describe. If I equip my AzT in my MH and my FoL in my OH, I see 2.03 APS when the AzT is active and 1.83 when the FoL is active.

  • If the 1.83 is on-screen when I activate WoL, my MH weapon gets reset to my AzT, and I see 2.03 in the Details tab. My next two Thunderclap attacks will be with my AzT, and I won't get a FoL attack until the third attack, at which point the game will correctly alternate attacks.
  • If the 2.03 is on-screen when I activate WoL, my MH weapon is reset to my AzT, and I see 2.03 in the Details tab, as before. My next Thunderclap attack will be with my AzT, but the game will begin alternating right away.

I doubt this is specific to my character. On another note, your OP says this:

6. Mystic Ally
Uses MH dmg only regardless of active weapon. Benefits from CC but not CD (but has innate 50CD).

The first sentence is not correct. If I arm myself with a small white club and one of my real weapons, my Earth Ally will hit for roughly 1,000 per attack when the white weapon is active and around 10–15 times as much when I make the other weapon active. It uses the active weapon, not MH-only.

Although this hasn't changed, Exploding Palm is definitely behaving MH-only. Good catch. As far as I knew, it was not behaving this way in 1.0.6, although I don't see any evidence that I tested it with two 1H weapons. No idea why I wouldn't have done that, though. Seems like the sort of thing I would do! ;-)
Reply Quote
Something else for your first post: Exploding Palm always uses an average damage figure, not a normal range. In other words, when I have my Fist of Legend in my main hand and use it to activate The Flesh Is Weak, I always see one of two sets numbers (this is with 188% CHD and 2041 DEX):

1. 6,008 normal hits and "+20% spikes" of 7,210
2. 17,304 critical hits and "+20% spikes" of 20,765

In this case, my FoL has an average damage of 639.04, and I'm wearing +45 Minimum Damage and +33 Maximum Damage, resulting in a final average weapon damage (AWD) of 678.04.

678.04 (AWD)
x 21.41 (2041 DEX)
x 7.45 (745% EP damage)
= 108,150.43118
÷ 18 (9-second countdown at two ticks per second)
= 6,008.35...

And this figure is rounded to the 6,008 I posted above. If I crit, I get the unrounded figure times 2.88 (+188% CHD), or 17,304.0..., which the game rounds to 17,304.

Cheers!
Reply Quote
I just tested it, and it still works the way I describe. If I equip my AzT in my MH and my FoL in my OH, I see 2.03 APS when the AzT is active and 1.83 when the FoL is active.

If the 1.83 is on-screen when I activate WoL, my MH weapon gets reset to my AzT, and I see 2.03 in the Details tab. My next two Thunderclap attacks will be with my AzT, and I won't get a FoL attack until the third attack, at which point the game will correctly alternate attacks.
If the 2.03 is on-screen when I activate WoL, my MH weapon is reset to my AzT, and I see 2.03 in the Details tab, as before. My next Thunderclap attack will be with my AzT, but the game will begin alternating right away.


Hmmm. When i tested, i decided to ignore display because i felt like it had been lying to me before. During my test I alternated attacks with a slow, low dmg (1-2 dmg) MH and a fast, "high" dmg (~300 dmg) OH and i was using basic attack (not FOT). I considered the low dps weapon "active" if it was "up for bat" and the next hit would be low dmg.

I'll check again when I get a chance. Perhaps the difference we're seeing is b/c of the weapons i was using or the fact that i was using basic attack?

EDIT: WIll update Mystic Ally & Exploding Palm with new info. Thanks!
Edited by Vox#1186 on 2/24/2013 9:48 PM PST
Reply Quote
A couple things that I'm not sure any of the recent posts have touched on:

1. SW no longer snapshots ANY form of damage increase. They are all calculated dynamically like Mystic Ally damage is.

2. I can't confirm it 100%, but I think I remember reading that while Backlash uses active weapon, I think it's activation also resets the order to MH being queued up. So in theory (if what I'm saying is true) you'd want your stronger weapon in MH (left slot) for using Backlash just like WoL.
Reply Quote
A couple things that I'm not sure any of the recent posts have touched on:

1. SW no longer snapshots ANY form of damage increase. They are all calculated dynamically like Mystic Ally damage is.


Thanks. I've noted that SW samples active hand continuously, I should highlight that 1.06 snapshot is gone!

2. I can't confirm it 100%, but I think I remember reading that while Backlash uses active weapon, I think it's activation also resets the order to MH being queued up.

Just tested.

Yes, it uses "active weapon" and backlash trigger damage alternates as you attack with MH/OH using FOT (for example).

Casting backlash mantra did not cause active hand to change.

Backlash triggers did not change the APS on my screen, nor did that change which weapon would hit next in the ordinary MH/OH/MH/OH attack sequence.

So in theory (if what I'm saying is true) you'd want your stronger weapon in MH (left slot) for using Backlash just like WoL.


Backlash doesn't seem to care. However, cyclone strike, which uses mainhand only and resets display to "MH active" will cause subsequent backlash triggers to use MH damage. So, yes, backlash favors high dps in mainhand in combination with other skills that will make MH active more often, on average.
Reply Quote
@Vrkhyz,

OMG i just had one of those moments where i typed out a 45 minute essay explaining my test and it frickin poofed!!! I know you have had similar experience. I should know better to copy all before hitting "submit!" So aggravating!

Long story short, i confirmed through testing that CS does not reset MH/OH sequence and therefore does not cause ordinary (i.e., FOT) attacks to favor MH more often than 50% of the time. The display is misleading. There is some confusion regarding term "active hand" which I had thought of as the weapon that was "at bat" and would hit next. In actuality, The display APS corresponds to the weapon which just attacked previously. Maybe everyone knew this but me!?

As a consequence, I saw the following sequence with slow MH, fast OH:
Start display = 1.70 APS
MH attack, display then 1.26 APS
CS (MH dmg), display then 1.26 APS (reflecting last attack and not next weapon)
OH attack, display then 1.70 APS
MH attack, display then 1.26 APS, etc.

Other scenario:
Start display = 1.26 APS
OH attack, display then 1.70 APS
CS (MH dmg), display then 1.26 APS (reflecting last attack and not next weapon)
MH attack, display then 1.26 APS
OH attack, display then 1.70 APS, etc.

It probably makes most sense to identify the "active hand" as the one that just struck, since this is 1) the APS that will be shown on display, and 2) the weapon damage that will be assigned to subsequent passive DPS skill checks (like backlash).

Still mad. Let me know if something no sense make.
Edited by Vox#1186 on 2/25/2013 9:53 PM PST
Reply Quote
Is part of figuring out how damage is dealt, along with the many other threads regarding game mechanics, part of the "fun" of Diablo????

I'm more of a technical documentation guy. I don't understand why Blizzard does not release an official detailed technical specification regarding skills and how they function.

I know there was some data mining going on to find out what was in patch 1.0.7; is there anything similar out there that define how skills/damage/ls/mitigation etc function..?

Back to the subject at hand, great post. Vox can you update the main OP with all the info found and confirmed throughout the thread. I'm a bit lazy and I bet many others are, so finding the value add info in the OP is a win :)
Reply Quote
My experience has always been that the APS shows the weapon ready to attack next. This show I know that Mystic Ally has dynamic damage, and it's how I've tested a few other things. Maybe Cyclone Strike is misbehaving, but I've never seen any evidence that the game displays APS like thus. I'll check it out later, though.
Reply Quote
And by "later," I guess I mean "after the maintenance is done, in about 8 hours when I get home." Damn.
Reply Quote
Long story short, i confirmed through testing that CS does not reset MH/OH sequence and therefore does not cause ordinary (i.e., FOT) attacks to favor MH more often than 50% of the time. The display is misleading. There is some confusion regarding term "active hand" which I had thought of as the weapon that was "at bat" and would hit next. In actuality, The display APS corresponds to the weapon which just attacked previously. Maybe everyone knew this but me!?

I don't suppose you have any way of knowing for sure that you've attacked with one weapon or the other? Usually, when I dual-wield during a test, I arm myself with a low-damage white weapon, a regular weapon, and enough +Minimum Damage gear to make sure I get the same number all the time from the white weapon. Occasionally, I wield two white weapons. This allows me to easily determine which weapon just attacked, and my experience, without fail, is "APS shows next up." Maybe Cyclone Strike is messing with that, but I'll be very surprised if that's the case.
Reply Quote
02/26/2013 04:12 AMPosted by KamelJabber
Is part of figuring out how damage is dealt, along with the many other threads regarding game mechanics, part of the "fun" of Diablo????


So not fun testing this MH/OH display stuff while wife nags. So not fun having detailed posts regarding results mysteriously poof. So not fun!

02/26/2013 04:12 AMPosted by KamelJabber
Vox can you update the main OP with all the info found and confirmed throughout the thread.


I have been updating, but am trying to keep as simple as possible. Thus not many references in OP to testing and documentation posted in thread, but i will consider adding some more. A few issues (like this recent MH/OH reset stuff) are still up in the air so I won't update OP until I'm confident we have a robust understanding.
Reply Quote
02/26/2013 05:14 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
I don't suppose you have any way of knowing for sure that you've attacked with one weapon or the other? Usually, when I dual-wield during a test, I arm myself with a low-damage white weapon, a regular weapon, and enough +Minimum Damage gear to make sure I get the same number all the time from the white weapon. Occasionally, I wield two white weapons. This allows me to easily determine which weapon just attacked, and my experience, without fail, is "APS shows next up." Maybe Cyclone Strike is messing with that, but I'll be very surprised if that's the case.


My test weapons are on my profile for Renkha. I'm confident about the weapon i'm striking with b/c of the huge disparity in dmg. After I hit with weak (1-2 dmg), slow (1.10 APS) cracked hand axe MH, display shows 1.26 APS, after i hit with fast Azurewrath, display shows 1.70 APS.

Maybe this mechanic changed with 1.07?
Reply Quote
I've been using the slow MH, crappy stat stick OH with a bell/tr build to one-shot elites @ MP1-Vota quite easily with my crappy gear so glad to see more testing being done to figure out mechanics on the lesser used skills.

Ps - before you click submit in any post ALWAYS ALWAYS ctrl-a ctrl-c incase you get logged out/dropped connection/etc. should be standard procedure for the forum vets.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]