Diablo® III

Perma hammer?

At what CC will you be able to spam HOTA? With DW, I can keep up WOTB easily but will still need to swap in some Bashes/Frenzy to top up my fury.

With a 10% CC Stormshield though, my fury improves and can stay up more (though it will still drop).

Is it possible at all to spam hammers without use of the fury generator throughout the entire fight?

PS. I understand a -HOTA ring may do the trick here, but is is possible to do it by increasing CC alone?
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It's possible when you're hitting multiple targets (may still get an unlucky proc streak).

Not possible for 1v1 since you're using 20 Fury per hit but you will only get back 15 Fury (that is if you're lucky). You have to take into consideration that the proc rate for HotA Smash is 0.8 while HotA Thunderstrike is only 0.67.
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Animosity + Full IMK suit + -Fury HotA rings/shields + Battle Rage/Into the Fray will certainly do it. You can drop some of the above as you get more comfortable with your gear and set up. I run a constant hammer and rarely run into issues, unless I'm soloing a boss, but even then a couple of cleaves and I"m back in business.
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^ Proc rate is a very important detail.

Animosity+hota reduction gear will get the job done consistently.

If you're taking enough damage it's possible to spam hota for a good long while as long as you are at the crit cap (full fury+ ~70% buffed?) without the above combination, but it's inconsistent.

Obviously this is much easier with lower aps as well, since you're not burning as much fury and you are gaining more from taking damage.
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Yep, solution it to recruit more monsters to the party. Sometimes it better to just skip certain elites if you are running a no fury generator build. SOJ can help, but you would need more than just an SOJ to spam on one target with thunderstrike. SOJ + Animosity may cover it.

Other trick is to use superstition for infinite fury. I usually farm solo and get trash monsters involved against elites as much as possible. Kill the leader of rare packs first. Incoming damage generates fury too.

I've use HotA SOJ before. I didn't notice a big difference, and it makes spending fury to maintain wrath more difficult.
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Heh that's one thing you and I won't ever agree on. The bottom line is, there is no option other than -5 HotA reduction if you want to maintain HotA on a single target.

It is straight up impossible to maintain HotA without reduction gear, no matter how high your crit chance is, because HotA costs more fury than it returns, and that's even with animosity. Now, of course, in reality there are tons of sources of fury, so you can get by without reduction, but you will run dry once you find yourself alone with a keywarden or yellow mob.

It's also generally false that it's easier to maintain with lower APS. Higher APS is always desirable, because in most cases you get a lot more fury from attacking stuff than you do from sitting there taking damage.

Don't take my word on all this though, check out det0x's essentially flawlessly geared HotA barb:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7923032654?page=1
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 2/19/2013 10:21 PM PST
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Thanks all!

I tried Superstition in place of TAN and it helped a lot with fury and survivability. Armour has gone up a bit due to the new crafting so I don't seem to be missing it that much.

Not sure I want to use Animosity esp for higher MPs.

In fact, the default attacks and damage taken will generate fury right? I can just hold the right button (HOTA) till my fury is restored (or I die from damage!).
Edited by rahl#6100 on 2/20/2013 12:24 AM PST
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im guessing with that -hota if you do manage to maintain perma hota, you will pretty much maintain perma wotb right? or does that require animosity and certain attack speeds? would be interested in seeing some math on this but im not sure how hota works with attack speed and what fury you would gain independent of ITF.
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@rahl

Yes, though you'll have to bear with your barb complaining about "Not enough Fury" from time to time.

@Orwell

You still need to dump and generate the 25 Fury/sec to maintain WotB. If your APS is too low, you may not be able to perma-WotB even if you can maintain perma-hammer with -HotA, especially vs single targets. So yeah, you need a certain APS and additional Fury boost from gear or passives.

I'll leave it to the Math gurus to come out with the calculations for the breakpoints and whatnots. Too much Math and variables for me. @_@
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With a good enough crit chance and the skill overpower momentum u can go perma hammer even on single target.
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It's quite possible without a fury generator or use of -hota gear. I used to do it before selling all my gear to afford a pvp set.

Here's what i used:
-overpower
-Animosity
-IK5
-mighty weapon /w weapon master
-battle rage - into the fray
10% crit stormshield

On a HoTA hit you generate 5 fury automatically from weapon master + ik5 (per monster hit). If you're running 2 attacks per second, then you can add in 2 fury per attack automatically as well from the passive gen, then a possible 17 from battle rage + ik5.

That's 24 possibly fury on crit 80% of the time, 7 on non crits 20% of the time. It works even without adding in the constant overpowers.

As an added bonus you have enough fury gen to keep up WoTB very very easily and will always have enough fury to sprint.
Edited by Fizzlesprig#1762 on 2/20/2013 4:43 AM PST
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^ thanks for the math ;)
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It's quite possible without a fury generator or use of -hota gear. I used to do it before selling all my gear to afford a pvp set.

Here's what i used:
-overpower
-Animosity
-IK5
-mighty weapon /w weapon master
-battle rage - into the fray
10% crit stormshield

On a HoTA hit you generate 5 fury automatically from weapon master + ik5 (per monster hit). If you're running 2 attacks per second, then you can add in 2 fury per attack automatically as well from the passive gen, then a possible 17 from battle rage + ik5.

That's 24 possibly fury on crit 80% of the time, 7 on non crits 20% of the time. It works even without adding in the constant overpowers.

As an added bonus you have enough fury gen to keep up WoTB very very easily and will always have enough fury to sprint.

I remember your setup, it was quite novel. Of course, for it to work the way yours did, you need a mighty weapon, 5-piece IK, and CC from a shield. Without any of those 3, you'd have trouble, though you could arguably drop either unforgiving or 5-IK and still get by. To me, a SoJ makes much more sense, because it doesn't pigeonhole you into such a specific gearing style, and also gives you the massive damage benefit of the elite bonus. (Though many rightfully argue that it's difficult to gear around a SoJ, due to the IAS and CC one could be fitting in a rare ring instead)

In my case, I have 77.5% CC counting gear, passives, OP:KS and WotB. With 147 fury on a full globe, I'm getting an extra 29% CC, which makes every hit of HotA a crit. With animosity, that leads to 14.4 (18*.8) fury returned on average. My HotA cost is 16 fury, making the effective cost of each HotA 1.6 fury, which is still suboptimal. I still have some leeway, being able to lose 34.5 fury on the globe and still retain a 100% crit chance. -5 reduction in place of the -4 I have would further reduce the cost to .6, which is about the lowest you can get away with without running into issues maintaining WotB, but is the proper way to go IMHO. I just can't afford it. Once you go down to -3 reduction or lower, the impact is greatly lessened. The proper way to look at it is that your HotA attacks will cost roughly 2-3x as much with -4 when compared to -5, over 4x as much with -3, and almost 10x as much with no reduction. This is why the value of HotA SoJ's increase exponentially with the amount of reduction they rolled with.

The amount of fury you generate in battle is highly situation, but one can usually expect to have at least 1-2 fury per hit coming from the environment, and obviously much more if using superstition and standing in elemental efects.
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Saw this thread at work today and wanted to comment on it due to I do know it is possible without -HotA equipment and you don't have to wield mighty weapons either. I am sorry I am late to the party but I am unable to log in at work.

Now a caveat; I do not know the mechanics behind why, I have asked for some mathematician to work it out but I will give you what I do know.

I was wielding the Bul-Katho's set, with those and some slots with various AIS and +CC I was able to get it with the rune (Smash) up to a return of 26 fury per second buffed and 21 fury per second with only battle rage. I found my Echoing Fury and upgraded my MH to an axe, this dropped me down to 23 fury generated, after getting my 4 slots to an AIS each of 9 and +1 total +CC added I was back to 25.3 fury generated per second buffed.......NOW, here is the catch that I do not understand:

Recently I had a goof with my MH and now I have a new one, difference between the two is this one has 7 more CHD and adds STR and DEX, other than that they are about the same DPS and the exact same APS; however I have dropped back down to 24.6ish fury generated per second buffed....why I have no idea....once again I am no mathematician but I know certain things work. So using d3up.com I have calculated that if I can somehow add another +5 AIS, preferably to my ammy, then I will be back above the 20 fury per second with just battle rage and 25 per second fully buffed, not by much but enough to maintain.

Yes on both accounts it work, fury (unless you miss the target) stays full after hit and when using WotB it resets the clock using HotA continuously.

Granted I use the IK5, I am sure that probably has something to do with it but if you use the site d3up.com I am sure you can figure out what you need. I tried other runes with HotA on the site and Smash is the only one that provides the fury return that high. I once again request that if someone can describe the mechanics behind this I would greatly be appreciative of it as I am sure the rest of the barb community would as well.
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so just hitting the boss with hammer doesn't generate any fury because its a fury spender unlike white hits which do?? that is an important consideration.
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02/20/2013 05:47 PMPosted by Orwell
so just hitting the boss with hammer doesn't generate any fury because its a fury spender unlike white hits which do?? that is an important consideration.


Several people now have said how you can generate enough fury by just using hammer, and keep up wotb.
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Is it possible at all to spam hammers without use of the fury generator throughout the entire fight?


In short yes, but it's very hard to do so in a 1v1.

In a 1v1 fight, this is essentially the formula (based around Hota smash).

(Crit Chance)*(fury per crit)*(.8)(asp)+fury generated > [-hota cost]*(asp)

A simplified version: 103% crit chance, animosity (so 18 fury returned), and assuming 0 fury generated (through other passives or equipment, etc.). In this situation the asp cancels each other out. Another assumption I'm making is that we have 103% crit because 15 higher fury available then needed).

100%*18*.8 = [-hota cost] = 14.4 which means hota cost has to be -14 or lower for us to sustain it indefinitely.

Now if we just had 100% cc (assuming maxed fury), then when we don't proc, we drop down 3% crit - which decreases crit, and will eventually keep us losing cc, and eventually we'll lose all our fury (given enough time)

Now it's hard to calculate a more advanced version, but I'll go speaking from experience.

At 100% crit chance, with animosity and a -15 hota, I cannot sustain hota in a 1v1 situation (ex. a boss or annoying elite). Even though I regen 18 per, the extra 3 doesn't get added until I drop down - which decreases crit chance. And with random chance where I don't proc twice in a row, my cc contianually decreases, and the added fury from the monster atking me is not enough to sustain the loss (at a 2.25 atack speed).

Now if you're at 95% crit, or even 90%, the formula shows how you need to decrease your hota cost or increase fury generation (through passives/equips) to keep permanent hota.

In normal gameplay, this isn't really a concern since I can use nadoes from sprint to make up for the decreasing fury - I don't use a fury generator as a skill, and can keep up perma sprint and perma rend by aiming for groups of 2+ when attacking or when globe has gotten down close to empty (because of using rend/sprint)

As a side note - I have dropped my SOJ and kept up everything permanently, but ONLY in higher mps where my nadoes have a longer duration (at mp 0-3 my nadoes will kill monsters too quickly). I would not be able to keep up a 1v1 battle without SOJ, unless I had perfect proccing on my nadoes to match my unprocs on hota.

I've tried a lot of different combinations (2-hs, differing passives) so if you have questions on sustaining it in other situations, let me know.
Edited by TheDK#1655 on 2/20/2013 6:45 PM PST
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TheDK pretty much explained it.

Perma-hammer is not possible with just -5 hota on single target simply due to RNG. You will eventually drop to zero fury, unless you have very high crit chance, more than -5 fury reduce, and/or run animosity.

The advantage of dropping a fury generator is pretty minimal, as frenzy/bash give you a passive 20%/24% damage buff anyway, so not swinging hota every single time is not a big deal.

Now, if you are mainly farming with WW/HotA where you often are against 1 target for HotA, the -5 is a big help. If you are mainly farming hitting multiple targets with HotA, -5 fury is useless.

If you are running ubers a lot and doing carries, -5 hota SoJ is a huge boost. I have only been able to test with -3 fury, but that made effectively zero difference in how often I could spam HotA.

For me, -hota never made sense. There are situations where it is nice, but the majority of my play time, it's not needed and I can control combat so that I am hitting at least 2 targets at once - which nets 20 fury on average with the lower proc coefficient of Thunderstrike.

I also run brawler as a passive, so I try to control monsters so that I am always surrounded by at least 3 monsters anyway. Once the combat drops to less than 3 monsters, I move on to the next pack. I don't gear around maximizing uber effectiveness anymore, so that's why I don't use a HotA SOJ.

If they were much cheaper, I would use one, but the cost for what it does -- not worth it to me.
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It's quite possible without a fury generator or use of -hota gear. I used to do it before selling all my gear to afford a pvp set.

Here's what i used:
-overpower
-Animosity
-IK5
-mighty weapon /w weapon master
-battle rage - into the fray
10% crit stormshield

On a HoTA hit you generate 5 fury automatically from weapon master + ik5 (per monster hit). If you're running 2 attacks per second, then you can add in 2 fury per attack automatically as well from the passive gen, then a possible 17 from battle rage + ik5.

That's 24 possibly fury on crit 80% of the time, 7 on non crits 20% of the time. It works even without adding in the constant overpowers.

As an added bonus you have enough fury gen to keep up WoTB very very easily and will always have enough fury to sprint.


is it possible to do this with an ik boulder breaker instead of a stormshield to add a bit more weapon damage to hota? I know you can reach 2aps with that weapon (buffed after wotb) but I don't know if its possible to get enough cc without the shield sorry I know its probably simple math that im just not getting
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