Diablo® III

Demon Hunters need buffs.

This post on Reddit is a wonderful summary of the state of the class.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/18uejn/can_the_demon_hunter_compete_with_other_classes/c8i666q

Although DHs can achieve the best sheet DPS as seen on Diabloprogress, the main problem is that farming is a combination of eDPS and spread (AoEing of that eDPS) and DHs are lacking in these areas; Blizzard "balanced" it by their increased mobility which makes them good at low MP. My friend Tangos is/was (selling stuff off right now) a ~700k DPS with Archery and Steady Aim DH. He could farm MP4 with ball lightning and one shot stuff; however, cranking up the MP to 9 or 10, things slow to a crawl compared to a Barb/Wiz/Monk at the 20B gear level.

Why is this so? DH's lack the resource generating abilities of Barbs and CM Wizards to cast the high DPS spells, they also don't have any good way to cast free/generator spells for consistent damage like monks or Archon Wizards and finally they have pretty meh damage steroids.

Looking at the first point, Barbs have into the fray and CM Wizards rely on ApoC so they can cast resource heavy spells constantly that have good AoE or little casting time. Barbs can deal high single target infinitely with smash for 406% weapon damage with 0 delay, or drop sprint tornadoes that deal ~ 20% * 9 * APS damage each over 3 seconds (for a 2 APS barb that's 360%). CM Wizards can constantly spam their explosive blast for 291% weapon damage combined with wicked wind for 252% and shocking aspect procs at 35% weapon damage each. If DH's had this kind of resource generation ability and they could spam cluster arrows and spike traps all day without relying on hatred generators then they would be on par. Unfortunately hatred can only be obtained through health globes (which are far and few between on high MP), passive on gear, base and companion and MoD which really isn't that great. ST-EB is pretty good for high mp in terms of cost efficiency, the problem is being able to find the choke point in the terrain so you can use it effectively.

On the second point, compared to monks and archon wizards DHs can't compete for free spells. Improved archon wizards shoot a beam at 375% weapon damage. Monks will use FoT-TC combined with SW-Cylone and Overawe to deal 350%+ depending on CrC (you'll have to refer to Meto5000s monk sheet for the exact numbers) just from autoattacks. DHs are stuck with at best 216% weapon damage from Bola - ID as their best free cast skill which has a delay associated with it. The GOOD thing is that blizzard decided to fix the stacking bola bug in 1.0.7 which makes this a lot better.

Finally Diabloprogress always displays unbuffed DPS. DHs items just have naturally put them up high there; however, when playing the game you're going to always have certain buffs and passives on. For a barb, that's 38% crit chance (with OP-KS and WotB), 25% ias, 45% damage (with Brawler and BR). From a unbuffed DPS of ~300k, I could reach close to 850k with those buffs. CM Wiz can have a combination of up to +74% damage (GC/conflag + BC + ST + CB (CB 20% is multiplicative)) or 20% crit chance (DF + PB), Archon wizards have +37% damage (GC + SF + FW) and 5% crit chance and Monks have +60% damage from overawe and exploding palm. Just a sidenote too, exploding palm is the most resource cost effective nuke out of any class. DH's have 50% crit damage and sometimes +12% damage from MoD since its not practical to cast it on every single mob. Most DH's don't go archery on high MP since kiting slows you down too much.

Besides coming a bit short in DPS output, the highest DPS skills for DHs have bad spread. For their best cost effective spender ST-EB, the range is 8 yards and higher DPS generator is 14 yards, which is quite lacking compared to other classes. Finally both of these skills have delays associated with them.

DHs are by no means bad farmers since they have arguably the best mobility of all the classes; however, as you increase your MP, DPS becomes and more important factor than mobility and DHs glaring lack of sustained DPS output becomes more and more evident. Since the game is balanced around farming, DHs can be considered on par with other classes; however, if your goal is to kill high MP monsters then DH isn't going to be the most gold efficient class for you.
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Absolutely dead-on post. Completely agree all around. Would probably be a difficult balance to achieve (especially for Blizzard) but it is a glaring issue at higher MP levels.
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Yup DH is the designated low-MP class.
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Loved every word but nothing will be done yet i see many post about dhs needing buffs but this in thier eyes would make other people cry.
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i say increase attack speed of dhs and repatch nether tentacles to act like ball off lightinig and buff other abilites including passives to be more efficient at spreading AOE
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Very well written post, makes many excellent points. Demon Hunters are great at lower MP where their range and mobility is still a factor, but these advantages evaporate once you get into MP6+. If you're still trying to kite at higher MP your effective dps is only going to be a fraction of your sheet dps.

When it comes to end game, DHs just don't excel at anything. We lack the survivability of the tankier classes, our effective DPS is mediocre at best, and our crowd control pales in comparison to CM wizzes.
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There needs to be at least a Fan of Knives build. or even an explosive build or even that spell that makes DH's spin lol.
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That comparisons to a certain forgotten class were not mentioned in the original post speaks volumes about which class needs buffs most.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 2/19/2013 8:56 PM PST
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I can foresee all non-DH players chiming in calling DH whiners. Especially Barbs who whined everyone to sleep in earlier patches complaining about being too weak.

What non-DH players don't realize is that the DH doesn't have a lot of DPS multiplicators (as mentioned in the OP's quoted text). I was just in a public MP4 game and a 130k DPS monk seemed to be making better progress than my 170k DH. In other words, you can't simply look at paper DPS.

I like the DH's mechanics. I find them fun. My only wish is that some of those skills had slightly higher % damages and better resource regen options as highlighted.
Edited by Thanos#1268 on 2/19/2013 9:01 PM PST
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Monks have +60% damage from overawe and exploding palm.


Um..no it doesn't.
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Umm... for the well geared DH out there, how's sentry for you guys in higher MP? The "175%" weapon damage is kind of nice, but it takes quite a lot of time to get "settled".

Would reducing the cooldown make the skill a lot viable?
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02/19/2013 09:01 PMPosted by Kupo
Monks have +60% damage from overawe and exploding palm.


Um..no it doesn't.


It's 50% unless you use the Essence Burn rune I believe (which is 60%)
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02/19/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Thanos


Um..no it doesn't.


It's 50% unless you use the Essence Burn rune I believe (which is 60%)

That's not a player damage buff, which is what the post implies.
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Umm... for the well geared DH out there, how's sentry for you guys in higher MP? The "175%" weapon damage is kind of nice, but it takes quite a lot of time to get "settled".

Would reducing the cooldown make the skill a lot viable?


I rarely ever see DH players use sentries in public games (but I guess some DH players use them).

Sentries seem quite slow and not worth a slot for me. Already, SS, Vault and Gloom use up 3 out of 4 of my slots. Spike Trap, which is a lot more efficient and causes way more damage uses up my 4th.
Sometimes I'll swap out Gloom in lower MPs for a Bat companion (lower MPs = Ball Lightning spamming = needing a lot of hatred regen).

Can't speak for other DH players though.
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We did have great builds that would have shined now but blizzard decided to nerf us every patch before the game got as nicely balanced as it is now.

For example if they would have left the proc rate on Jagged spikes like it was back in 1.03 we would be tanking MP10 and dealing consistent damage but nope blizzard nerfed it, same with Nether tentacles same with trail of cinders list goes on and on.

Honestly blizzard made the mistake of nerfing DH the hardest since launch while buffing everyone else when what they should have done was leave us alone and buff everyone else and we would be much more balanced today.

It's a shame blizzard took the nerf route without thinking about how in the long haul other classes would be buffed.
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It's 50% unless you use the Essence Burn rune I believe (which is 60%)

That's not a player damage buff, which is what the post implies.


I guess not. But it's still additional damage to monsters nonetheless though no? Are we talking semantics? (I'm honestly asking, I've never played a monk).
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We did have great builds that would have shined now but blizzard decided to nerf us every patch before the game got as nicely balanced as it is now.

For example if they would have left the proc rate on Jagged spikes like it was back in 1.03 we would be tanking MP10 and dealing consistent damage but nope blizzard nerfed it, same with Nether tentacles same with trail of cinders list goes on and on.

Honestly blizzard made the mistake of nerfing DH the hardest since launch while buffing everyone else when what they should have done was leave us alone and buff everyone else and we would be much more balanced today.

It's a shame blizzard took the nerf route without thinking about how in the long haul other classes would be buffed.


Knee jerk reactions. Buff every other class because they were indeed on the weak side and nerf DHs because they looked too strong in comparison. Same as overcompensating a car's steering when the tail comes loose.
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Umm... for the well geared DH out there, how's sentry for you guys in higher MP? The "175%" weapon damage is kind of nice, but it takes quite a lot of time to get "settled".

Would reducing the cooldown make the skill a lot viable?


I rarely ever see DH players use sentries in public games (but I guess some DH players use them).

Sentries seem quite slow and not worth a slot for me. Already, SS, Vault and Gloom use up 3 out of 4 of my slots. Spike Trap, which is a lot more efficient and causes way more damage uses up my 4th.
Sometimes I'll swap out Gloom in lower MPs for a Bat companion (lower MPs = Ball Lightning spamming = needing a lot of hatred regen).

Can't speak for other DH players though.


I kind of like sentry because it doesn't have a "cast animation", so you can keep attacking while dropping. It offers some nice additional DPS for an extended period of time. My hatred spender in higher MP is also ST - EB and my hatred generator is BS - ED. It works quite well since I get 15% DMR from sentry, 20% DMR from passive (dealing damage with traps/sentry), and gloom for 35% DMR. It allows me to stand in one spot and take a lot of heat.
Edited by DoomBringer#1994 on 2/19/2013 9:12 PM PST
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I see...so DH needs to be the fastest at low mp...middle mp...and top mp as well before the Dhs are happy...=)) I get your point
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Agreed. You MUST go ST-EB at higher MP's.

Our DPS is great on paper, but we are pretty much relegated to low MP for purposes of efficiency. This is why I'm surprised that they made no changes to DH in 1.07. There is a false sense of "balance" on the part of the devs.
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