Diablo® III

APoC why do we need so much?

02/17/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Loroese
EDIT: After doing a couple quick tests with AO and Blizzard, I'm pretty sure the spell coefficient still applies to APoC. I'm more inclined to believe it's just an issue with the crits for WW and spells like that.


02/17/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Shaggy
I believe they changed APoC completely in order to fix blizzard's APoC, but it is all theory right now, not enough controlled testing


02/17/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Loroese
While I was thinking that might be the case, the problem is we're not seeing a noticable difference between 10 and 20 APoC.


So I was really intrested in this forum thread.

#1 I ran every single skill test (meteor orb et blizzard) test against a single target so as to ensure there is no overlap. All at 50% cc
#2 I can vary my Apoc from 0~30 and tested each setting with certain skills and apoc variables (0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30). Because I can't explain the more spikey-ness of Apoc returns I am getting,
#3 All against Ghom @ mp 1 (the best I can do without needing more mitigation) I frap'sed the session at 182 frames (fps) to count each pool return (had my character panel open the whole time so I could view the actual amount gained on each triggered proc. Also note this made it hard to target properly hence against ghom)

I have some conclusions your all welcome to test out for yourself. With Et and Blizzard my Apoc returns are very consistent and steady. 10 Apoc nets me almost 1.5 Apoc a second with et, 15 is very Very close to constant 2 gain, 20 is very close to 4 apoc per crit, 30 was nearly 6 Apoc returned upon a crit.

With meteor, and Arcane orb My returns are completely different. Each *crit* that triggers Apoc gains me the respective Apoc I have geared. This is at least what I have recorded there are times with different apocgear when meteor/orb crit lands and I instantly have 5/10/15/20/30 more arcane pool. There is a significant difference between how these skills function with apoc. Could it be because both ET and Blizzard have "tick" rates that their nature of apoc returns are different from skills that don't have Aps gaining tick counts? (skills like meteor and orb?)

And before anyone correct's that it cant be right, please test it for yourselves meteor/orb's apoc functions differently than blizzard's/et returns.
Edited by Harrowing#1449 on 2/17/2013 10:39 PM PST
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That's a clever idea, having your char sheet open with details tab. I hadn't thought of that and it seems like a good way to test AP returns. The whole targetting thing won't be an issue if you just corner Ghom first, then hold your "don't move" button and spam WWs on yourself. Alternatively you can probably find a corner in the east part of the room.

I'll see if I can spare a few minutes tomorrow to test myself. What I'm thinking is draining my AP by casting EA, then casting one WW and watching my AP rise. My main issue is I don't have high FPS when I run my video capture and I don't have any playback software that displays ms of playback, just seconds, so it's hard for me to distinguish fast rates.
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I picked up a black damage wand with 8 + ET crit and a 10 APOC Tri and did a twirl through VOA. Had an attack speed of 2.15 with a completely unoptimized build. Worked shockingly well.
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Now 10apoc works for ghom. I think bliz changed the coefficients for apoc. It now feels almost twice as before.

However it seems hard to take advantage of that. Rolling with >10 apoc for SNS is still ideal. I tried using meteor in the old SNS build but the cast of FN, EB and meteor conflicts too much and it's hard to improve the multiplier of SNS, and it reduces survivability.
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Just so you know guys I worked this out for the 2 following reasons:

1. Switched to Mempo with no APoC
2. Chantodo's Force WITHOUT APoC were dirt cheap for the DPS

I was fooling around with builds, searching for DPS and tried out various Chantodo's Force's to up my DPS. Anyhow the high DPS but no APoC were cheap, so figured I'd give it a go.

I am not running storm armor most of the time and its just plain vanilla CM/WW with Chain Reaction, Diamond Shards, Cold Snap.

I do run the Time Stretch bubble, but I am at 2.95APS unbuffed and 3.12 Time Stretch Buffed.

50.0% CC and 10 APoC on the Chants Will is all the APoC I have.

1 thing I maybe imagining, but in 1.0.7 I can pop a massive amount of WW, where as before you could only pop 10 before the first cast WW would run out, now it feels way more than 10. I literally cannot count them all. 10 I think I could count, I lose track of how many there are on the screen now, and this is when I am the only Wizard in the village.

To summarise and and clarify, I have 2 builds.

1. Uber Carry Build (The CM/WW/Time Stretch, Prismatic Armor Build)
2. XP 2 Wizard SNS / Meteor Build

Build 1. I get away with 10 APoC
Build 2. I get away with >15 <20 APoC
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So u guys basically say that 1 APoC source is now enought?

Anyone tested how it affects dmg output vs 2 apoc sources?
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So u guys basically say that 1 APoC source is now enought?

Anyone tested how it affects dmg output vs 2 apoc sources?


Is for my specific case. YMMV

I can't get away with it if I want to run Meteor as well as CM/WW or SNS.
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Damn... After some testing at Ghom MP10 (10 times)

with 20 APoc : 6.9x - 7x Multiplier
with 10 APoC : 6.7x - 6.8x Multiplier

My Crit chance is only 50%, latency 200+ ms

So for me, its true that 10 APoC works lol, its just a little lag at the start when only 1 or 2 twister running, but its expected...

I suggest you guys try it yourself lol
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But does it translate well in farming? I guess I can test myself but in case anyone already did, do you feel that you run dry too often?
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02/18/2013 05:23 AMPosted by novice
But does it translate well in farming? I guess I can test myself but in case anyone already did, do you feel that you run dry too often?


You will run dry IF there's only 1 target and there's only 1-2 twister running, which only happen at the start of the fight, most of the time there's more than 1 target anyway..

I think they somehow change how APoC works, i'm quite sure it doesnt regenerate that fast at 10 APoC..
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Not sure but I just tested. Mixed result. I did't run out of AP vs Ghom, my AP return was very stable. Otoh, I ran dry vs 2 smaller targets, it's the same feeling as in 1.06.

Maybe we should test it on smaller target, like...err... Mag?
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Don't I remember reading somewhere that the higher crit chance you have, the less APoC you will need in return?

SO if you had 35% crit in patch 1.05-.06 then you would need closer to 20 APoC

But now if you built up to 50% crit, then you'd need less say 15 ApoC?

(These are rough numbers, and no testing)

But it would seem logical to need less apoc the more crit you stack. more crit you have, the faster apoc you will get.

The problem still with this, is I'm not sure how well 10 APoC will work at full uptime. But the small and little problems you would encounter and saving a ton of gold def makes it worthwhile topic to discuss

PLEASE DO SOME SOLID TESTING AND LETS GET SOME HARD FACTS FIRST
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Tested on Kulle, my AP ran dry pretty fast and often, it's the expected behavior in 1.06. Idk maybe it's because Ghom is so huge so we have more AP return. I also did the same test on Kulle with 2 sources to compare, and my AP globe was almost always full.

Now that's what I call normal.
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Tested on Kulle, my AP ran dry pretty fast and often, it's the expected behavior in 1.06. Idk maybe it's because Ghom is so huge so we have more AP return. I also did the same test on Kulle with 2 sources to compare, and my AP globe was almost always full.

Now that's what I call normal.
So I did uber runs last night too and Madgha was a pain. My impression is that "runner" bosses, like Kulle or Madgha, that kite are the problem. If we can't quite lock them down that's a royal PiTA. Because if these bosses try to move out of our twister field, we have to restart the process of casting twisters and sometimes with them at full cc resistance. And that's a non-trivial issue, because of the slower windup time with 1 source of APoC versus 2. I know I can farm in a workable way with 10APoC... but for now I'm keeping 2 sources of APoC handy in case I have to chase down a boss (or possibly a single).

I think the most practical issue is whether people can efficiently farm with just 10APoC as well as 20APoC. That I'm less sure. My sense is that you can for most monsters, but I think it warrants more testing how much trouble runners will be. But this is all interesting, because we'd never have been able to consider this in 1.0.6. But then I kinda see this 10APoC setup as an alternative to the classic SNS build, like using the 2.51aps breakpoint or replacing Evocation with Glass Cannon/Conflagration. You might have a bit harder time with the freezing for the potential advantage of bearing down more DPS.
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I like 30. Even 20 is not enough at 2.73.
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Nah.. dont use 10 APoC for ubers... too much movement even for 1-2 twoster to hit, i'm only saying its viable for MP10 Ghom or elites..
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I use 10 APoC for ubers.

Lock is as good as it ever was, except for SB/Kulle which aint got anything to do with my APoC numbers
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I think it's doable, but again not optimal. But since we are all budget-constraint, we have to choose between DPS and APoC. Versus mobs you have zero difference between 10 and 20, so more DPS at 10 is more beneficial, but it's 1-2 targets that slow you down a lot, so they kinda X out each other. I think 20 is superior though because there are just too many variables in practice that 10 APoC cannot cover well enough.
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hah maybe blizzard realized we were using ghom to find all their hidden numbers so they specifically broke ghom to screw with us.
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Skele/magdah I fight differently with 10 apoc because the windup is longer on 10 apoc. I chase magdah to a corner and just freeze her there. I don't really have a problem with kulle, but I think that's because since patch seig and kulle act differently when frozen, kulle doesn't run he just tries to cast rocks on you.
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