Diablo® III

APoC why do we need so much?

I'm hesitant to post since I bought a 10-APOC force somewhat recently but I think the cat's out of the bag. 10APOC, single-source, just from wand is sufficient at least for farming. I did my usual vota farming route last night with my new non-apoc source, both on mp7 and mp10 and it worked just fine. Same run times, no noticeable lack of apoc. Time to buy some 250+dmg/250+int/vit non-apoc sources :P
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@Carnac: My biggest two impressions coming away from 10APoC is that it works, but there is a substantially slower windup. To make it efficient for farming, you either need lots of crit (this is me theory crafting) or I think you need to be in a high enough MP difficulty that a slower windup doesn't impact your average damage ouput. And I don't think I could stomach 10APoC with the standard SNS build with Teleport (Wormhole). If you're low on AP, it's noticeably more painful to get your AP regenerated. Eventually you get it all back at 10APoC like 20APoC, but darn it's slower.
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@Tekk, I'll try it some more but I check the clock on my runs so far there's no visible difference (I do get slight increased dps from my non-apoc source, maybe that offsets any slowness in the windup). I run standard SNS build with Teleport(Wormhole) to farm VOTA (tp to elites, kill, tp to next elite refreshing on packs in between), usually on MP7 but also tested on MP10. Back in 1.06, it was indeed painful to regenerate AP and I ran with 17APOC a lot and I noticed a diff going to 20. However, I'm not finding that to be the case now, I see myself at 40ish arcane power, drop twisters into a few skellies and before I know it I'm at full again.
Edited by Carnac#1372 on 2/20/2013 10:27 AM PST
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tried on ubers. 10 apoc isn't really different on rak/ghom. however during sk/magda where u want windup as quick as possible, 10 apoc sucks. also bad on the sb/zk dual, since sometimes u need to let sb off and freeze only on kulle. AP dips a lot there.
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Some random dude was arguing with me on chat last night about apoc. I thought he was trolling. Damn so 10 is the new 20? I'm gonna go 30 to be different.
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02/20/2013 11:03 AMPosted by JellzRoc
Some random dude was arguing with me on chat last night about apoc. I thought he was trolling. Damn so 10 is the new 20? I'm gonna go 30 to be different.
I dunno. I think people need to be VERY careful in not over-interpreting the results of this thread. 10APoC is workable, but it's not ideal (just look at the post above you :lol). And that's worth emphasizing. I know I would never do the Madgha/King Leoric fight with 10APoC now. I tried it once and, in-battle switched right back to 18ApoC, after I had enough of Madgha running away.
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02/20/2013 11:35 AMPosted by TekkZero
I dunno. I think people need to be VERY careful in not over-interpreting the results of this thread. 10APoC is workable, but it's not ideal (just look at the post above you :lol). And that's worth emphasizing. I know I would never do the Madgha/King Leoric fight with 10APoC now. I tried it once and, in-battle switched right back to 18ApoC, after I had enough of Madgha running away.


exactly. with single cm wiz at 2.74aps and 57cc, 10 apoc will be very bad if u have to windup again after magda escapes(she always does) something like a single turbo and dual turbo car i guess. as long as u step on the gas pedal its the same..but when it comes to accelerating...dual just beats the !@#$ out of single
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Still this is some crazy stuff. I remember running 17 apoc back in 1.06 and it was horrible. 10 apoc was completely unfathomable to me at that point.
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Right, Tek. Disclaimer: I did not test 10APOC on ubers :) I'm sure I would be miserable in the magda fight. For general farming, seems ok for me. It might suck if you're trying to keyfarm the teleporting act3 warden and other elites like that.
Edited by Carnac#1372 on 2/20/2013 11:46 AM PST
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You know what rune is unexpectedly useful in this build:

Force Conduit.

The thing about 10 APOC is that it is right on the edge of what works. That's why single-target wind-ups are noticably slower (but not horribly so). If you go look at the guys who tried this with 9 APOC, however, you see they report much worse results.

One thing I've become absolutely convinced of is that the mechanic has changed to return a set amount of AP per tick based on CC and APOC. If you watch the refills they are smooth, not jerky at all.

Here's the thing if there is indeed some function that returns AP per tick, that one APOC point the 9 IAS wands lose is equivilent to an 10 percent decrease in AP regen. Similarly, adding one point via Force Conduit increases AP regen from crits by ten percent.

Run with Force Conduit and the slightly longer windups disappear.
Edited by Ossian#1946 on 2/20/2013 2:32 PM PST
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You know what rune is unexpectedly useful in this build:

Force Conduit.

The thing about 10 APOC is that it is right on the edge of what works. That's why single-target wind-ups are noticably slower (but not horribly so). If you go look at the guys who tried this with 9 APOC, however, you see they report much worse results.

One thing I've become absolutely convinced of is that the mechanic has changed to return a set amount of AP per tick based on CC and APOC. If you watch the refills they are smooth, not jerky at all.

Here's the thing if there is indeed some function that returns AP per tick, that one APOC point the 9 IAS wands lose is equivilent to an 10 percent decrease in AP regen. Similarly, adding one point via Force Conduit increases AP regen from crits by ten percent.

Run with Force Conduit and the slightly longer windups disappear.


There was a whole thread in 1.06 where we discussed how to make 10 APoC work, and in the end I believe with Prism+Conduit you can simulate the exact same result as 16 APoC against single. Now it seems that our AP return is better, maybe only Conduit is needed.
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Probably the one thing I had going for me was I am well above the 2.74 break point (2.94?? somewhere) , and with a stretch time bubble I was over 3.1APS.

Average by elite Wizard standard CHC with 50ish %

10 APoC on the Chantodos Will, is all I really need at the moment UNLESS running a meter build.
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10 APoC 2.31 aps 40 CC they are all the same. You better run with higher APoC, you don't need it to be functional, just to be optimal.
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Tested 10, doesn't work

I had luck with insanely cheap cc Mempo, was at 54.5%cc 2.88as.

In this setting, it was so bad that I even died in MP5 Stonefort while having a chat break.

Seriously: 2.88as, 54.5cc, 10apoc = terrible.
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Firemage is extreme, can't even lock down fast one with 19 APoC, I guess you die to Firemages right?
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It was that little fire dragon. He did not respect me having my chat break.

So rude.
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I think maybe your MP was too low? :) Try say, VOTA?

Tested 10, doesn't work

I had luck with insanely cheap cc Mempo, was at 54.5%cc 2.88as.

In this setting, it was so bad that I even died in MP5 Stonefort while having a chat break.

Seriously: 2.88as, 54.5cc, 10apoc = terrible.
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Yeah runners are very very troublesome, especially singles, with 10 APoC, and even more if they are small lol
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@Ossian:

thanks for suggesting to run mw/conduit to help smooth out a 10APoC build.
swapped in old non-APoC, went glass cannon and am now farming with this set up.
sure, i lost a hell of a lot of mitigation. went from 800AR to 680AR with this set up, but it's sure a lot more engaging now that killing is much faster, and repositioning once in a while and popping potions, instead of snoozing while freezing.

i suppose it's just player preference, but on high mp's for me 10 APoC seems to work just fine in 1.07.
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Did they change the way APOC works or something..?

Last I checked I could not run smoothly at 17 APOC, let alone 10, pre-1.07 of course
Edited by Alesso#1854 on 2/21/2013 8:51 PM PST
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