Diablo® III

APoC why do we need so much?

So while I think 10 APoC is not really fun to play with, the result does make me believe that now ~15 APoC is perfectly fine. Lol time to get insane 6 APoC Force haha
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Can someone please point me to the test method that was used to determine the WW breakpoints?
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Yea time to buy my cheap Mempo :-)

4.5%cc 174int just 350m in AH.
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02/23/2013 03:20 AMPosted by DethAxe
dude, you're like 29 APOC and -5 meteor...


Were you talking about me or Aimless? Never mind I have a bone to pick about both, Aimless has better -meteor gear available to swap in his account than I do, you cant judge a profile by just a quick look at his logged off snapshot. Secondly, what exactly are you dissagreeing with in your post dethaxe?
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02/23/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Worloega
Can someone please point me to the test method that was used to determine the WW breakpoints?


The method is to use video recording software against a non-moving mob, like Ghom when cornered, so you have 100% uptime on the spell. Then you get hit a bit, remove all your life regen and life steal. You cast 1 WW and record all the life gains for the duration. Then you repeat a couple times for consistancy. Then change APS and repeat, with the same LoH. We know the coefficient is 0.125 so you take the total life gained, divide by 0.125x your LoH, and that should give you the total number of tics. So if you have 800 LoH, you should get 3300 Life gain per WW cast at 2.5 APS. At 2.73 you should see it increase to 3600 Life, which corresponds to 36 tics.

From there it was a matter of fitting the results. I have no idea how the person figured out the relationship, but someone did and we have an expression based on frame rates with some rounding.
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@Loroese:

OK, I didn't do it quite that way... but see here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7978878442
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Ok so I guess I'll post one more time in this thread, even though my first two posts went unnoticed, lol. I am no math/computer wiz (<-no pun intended) but I do have a bad a%# critical mass wizard. So last night I simply took off a ring with ias/crit. I swapped SA for EA PB and ran a test. No numbers, just feeling. I now have no reason to believe 2.74 is even remotely close to necessary to achieve lock with 20 APOC...which was my suspicion since this thread first popped on the forum. While we are all trying to figure out the sweet spot of APOC, it is most likely an attack speed requirement shift that will allow us the flexibility to make a second gear drop of ias (goodbye Prowlers, perhaps?)
Edited by Melkor#1521 on 2/23/2013 6:45 PM PST
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I've never felt 2.73 APS was required to sufficiently freeze lock mobs. I only used it to keep SB/Kulle frozen. Lower APS works reasonably well with succifient APoC, even 2.0 APS. The issue becomes survivability of lower APS, mainly lower LoH returns and less frequent DS refreshes.

I regeared before 1.0.7 for 2.5 APS since it's so much easier to get high dps with black weapon+triumvirate and I find it works fine.
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You need about 60-65cc and 10 APOC works fine; played three days, 3 P levels doing it (farming D/E Mp8).

You need high high high CC, that's all. I run 191k unbuffed @ 10 APOC vs. 174k @ 19 APOC

out.
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The reason I even noticed it was because of the price differentials for Force's on the AH.


Thanks, by the way, for checking it out. I'd have never thought to do so after having a 15 APOC build totally crater in 1.05. You've discovered one of the most important things about CM/SNS builds in the last few months.


High praise indeed, Thanks!

02/23/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Melkor
I swapped SA for EA PB and ran a test. No numbers, just feeling. I now have no reason to believe 2.74 is even remotely close to necessary to achieve lock with 20 APOC...which was my suspicion since this thread first popped on the forum. While we are all trying to figure out the sweet spot of APOC, it is most likely an attack speed requirement shift that will allow us the flexibility to make a second gear drop of ias (goodbye Prowlers, perhaps?)


02/23/2013 06:53 PMPosted by Loroese
I've never felt 2.73 APS was required to sufficiently freeze lock mobs. I only used it to keep SB/Kulle frozen. Lower APS works reasonably well with succifient APoC, even 2.0 APS. The issue becomes survivability of lower APS, mainly lower LoH returns and less frequent DS refreshes.


For whatever reason 2.73/74 Attacks Per Second never ever worked for me with regards to freezing. It was just terrible.

I sit at around the 200ms latency mark though, so I kept stacking IAS until I could freeze.

So I am now at 2.95 APS unbuffed currently on 50% CHC, which seems to work pretty good at farming MP10 Act 3 solo as a SNS/Meteor Wizard with 17 APoC.

When I run MP10 Ubers, I go back to a very defensive vanilla CM/WW build with Prismatic Armor and Stretch Time which pushes me up to 3.1 APS with the same CHC, and 10 APoC is all I need, since Wicked Wind and Explosive Blast are my only Arcane Power uses.

Maybe APoC was bugged before, because you didn't always proc AP on every APoC in previous patches, but now it is 100% on every Critical Hit? Just throwing it out there, as I see other things in my SNS/Meteor build that suggests we get way more Crits than we used to.

Shocking Aspect alone is enough to fill my screen with Critical Hits, so much so, that you can't even see what the actual numbers are. It was so much, I was beginning to believe Wicked Wind was displaying Crit Hits, as I couldn't work out why there were so many Crit numbers on my screen. I almost posted a new thread asking and saying that Wicked Wind must be showing Crit Numbers now, there are so many!
Edited by Whisper#6439 on 2/24/2013 4:48 AM PST
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With LL and 42% ChC and 19 APoC, I simply don't run out.

I rarely ran out when I was 10 APoC.
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Although I also feel that AP return is so much better, I'm still very skeptical as there is no solid calculation. That's the only thing that keeps me from switching to 2.51 aps and 10 APoC, it will require a full gear revamp, but after spamming Meteor nonstop today vs single, I'm very very tempted lol.
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Well I currently run at 2.5 and 10 apoc I use astral presence to counter act wind-up and it works perfectly, spent a full day testing with different runs and ubers everything worked fine, freezing and all.
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02/23/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Melkor
So last night I simply took off a ring with ias/crit.


Just did the same, dropped me to 2.58. At 11 APOC (10 source + Conduit) windup is definitely slower--three to four "Out of AP" messages compared to 2 at 2.73, even after adding 4.5 crit to my build.
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I feel this is similar to Storm Chaser, took like a week to discover it's "bugged". Lol.
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02/24/2013 01:58 PMPosted by novice
I feel this is similar to Storm Chaser, took like a week to discover it's "bugged". Lol.


Absolutely man. This is exactly what I think. Blizzard fired off nerf after nerf after nerf directly against CM. There is no way they would intentionally breathe life back into it. I won't regear (not that anyone is saying they are) until 1 - 2 patches go by and this thing stays viable. Even then, I'll keep my existing gear in the stash. Too good to be true.
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I will adjust accordingly tbh there is no reason not to. But I also keep my old gear because I need them for Ubers.
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APOC is er good. I've tested a lot every patch and talked about how after 1.0.5/6 that 20 was barley enough on Single Targets. Missed casting opportunities at start and at 2.73 well occilated up and down even after wind up is going. Well thats how it is with 10 now. 10 is doable. 20 is OP. Well full all the time and fast fill on start. Indeed this is Storm Chaser 2.0.

Ran act 4 MP10 no problems with 10 you see in current profile.

No wonder my meteor builds been working so well and ppl like Dr Doom and Phal can spam Chaos Nexus too unlimited.

Like Melkor said I wouldn't gear for 10 as in bank on it.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 2/24/2013 10:28 PM PST
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02/23/2013 01:36 PMPosted by novice
So while I think 10 APoC is not really fun to play with, the result does make me believe that now ~15 APoC is perfectly fine. Lol time to get insane 6 APoC Force haha


I've been planning to end game with this amount regardless anyway with maximum ET CC so these results do not change my gearing plan one bit but it's absolutely fascinating how this seemed to have been ninja changed because it was absolutely not working out for me in 1.06 when I borrowed some of Aph's gear with my own to make 78% ET CC, 10 apoc, 2.74 aps BP. Now it's actually working quite well.

Anyway, never planned on 20 to begin with so this is all good news to me, just wondering if this will be 'fixed' soon.
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Nah my opinion changed after further testing. It's perfectly fine for average players as you don't run out of AP after windup, and only vs single. It feels the same as 20 APoC vs 2+ targets.

So I will play with that amount in the mean time, it's definitely different from before.
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