Diablo® III

Should Vision Quest stack with each Primary?

Remember the old VQ days when we would blow all our CDs to have unlimited mana?
Having 4 spells on cooldown would give 300% mana regeneration. We would put BBV, Hex and Pets, etc all on cooldown to be able to spam our favourite spells. IAS speed didn't hinder it much and it fixed our mana problems.

Well what if we could bring that back without tampering with the current mechanism?
Vision Quest
When you deal damage with Corpse Spiders, Firebomb, Plague of Toads or Poison Dart, your Mana regeneration is increased by 30% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks for each spell.


This ability stacks for each primary spell you put into action so Max Vision Quest builds might look like: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#afbWUS!eaU!acZZaY

We would have 120% for 5 seconds with 4 primaries in play. Would be just like old VQ but with more options. An option to have some mana regen at no cost or unlimited mana regen at the cost of 4 spells. They all do poor damage but you will have unlimited mana, at least.

For someone who stacks mana regen and max mana on Knife, Mojo and Helm. They tend to have 100 mana regen. With max VQ active, they can make better use of stacking so much mana regen! They would have 220 mana regen, which would make up for the dps lost on knife and helm.

Granted most people will probably not run max VQ, but still those who would want to have unlimited mana at any cost can have what they want! Currently, there is no way to do so, trust me I have tried. 100 mana regen is nowhere close to being unlimited, and that's without stacking IAS.

So what do you say, should VQ be allowed to stack once for every primary?

Some calculations comparing the old VQ with the new one and comparing it to this suggestion:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7978878392?page=1#6

FOR REDEMPTION! a thread by SayGa, expressing the frustration of senior WD players.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415461761 :)

For other skill changes:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593582072
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 2/23/2013 6:16 PM PST
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So I'd need a ton of primaries to maximize the way VQ works?
That's just as bad as tying up all your skills for cooldowns, I don't like this idea at all.
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Exactly, and you don't have to like the idea. Just like many people don't like the current VQ, they prefer the older one. Given that we have different tastes... with stacking allowed, both tastes are satisfied.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 2/23/2013 11:13 AM PST
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7979378213#2
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I think a better ideal is to turn VQ into the physical spell verson of RoE.

If you dont know what your physical spells are just look at Fetish Sycophants it has the list.

That includes Zombie chargers/Acid Cloud/Bats and all primary spells wall of zombies so zero pile on is not left out as well as Locust Swarm.

And whats not on that list is probly on RoE and covers most spells that way. It's currently the best way to scale mana reg with IAS and plays well with BR and SA and mana stacking+mana reg iteams.

The only thing better then this is turning mp on death into mp on crit. And I dont think they whant to do that with WD. So as to be alittel differnt then other spell casting class.

And I mean realy what WD what's to spam phantasm around with RoE pluse mana on crit to regein unlimited mana.
Edited by Umbra#1460 on 2/23/2013 3:24 PM PST
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Manvan

I really like the idea of gaining extra regen with Spiritual Attunement provided you have WD specific gear. But VQ already scales off of mana regen so it's no different than using VQ. SA is meant to scale off of Max Mana. Currently we have no way of getting a lot of Max Mana. But check this out: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593582072?page=1 Ctrl + F to find ABC3 - Soul Harvest.

Umbra
Here, I am actually not looking for "more" mana regen per se, nor am I looking for IAS-based mana regen solutions that completely redesign VQ. I like the way VQ design is right now TBH.

What I want is for WD to have a solution for infinite mana as VQ was before ("blow off 4cd have infinite mana, enjoy your life bro"). It was feast or famine they said and gave us a new mechanism for VQ. But that VQ mechanic was not a problem before, it was a particular playstyle! The problem back then was mana regen itself, and VQ solved it by giving us infinite mana. That was not a good solution, since there was nothing moderate. So when they fixed it, certain builds that ran on that VQ became unviable.

So what if VQ stacks? Well, when it stacks it allows you to go to extreme mana regen like old VQ builds but if you find you need those skill slots for something else, you can back away to 3,2 or 1 primary, that is 30% regen as it currently is. This is the benefit of the new VQ design.


Old design:

Back then we had 20 base regen so..
20 x 300% = 80 mana regen, at the cost of 4 CD

Add in some mana regen items, say three 12 regen gear. Zunimassa Set did not have mana regen bonus back then.
(20+(12x3)) x 300% = 224 mana regen, at the cost of 4 CD

(Remember VQ does not take SA into account)

New Design

I'll call all our Primary abilities CD simply because they are little better than having a skill on CD.

45 x 30% = 58.5 mana regen, at the cost of 1 CD<- currently you cannot go beyond this
45 x 60% = 72 mana regen, at the cost of 2 CD
45 x 90% = 85.5 mana regen, at the cost of 3 CD
45 x 120% = 99 mana regen, at the cost of 4 CD

Add in some mana regen items, say three 12 regen gear.
(45+(12x3)) x 30% = 105.3 mana regen, at the cost of 1 CD<- currently you cannot go beyond this
(45+(12x3)) x 60% = 129.6 mana regen, at the cost of 2 CD
(45+(12x3)) x 90% = 153.9 mana regen, at the cost of 3 CD
(45+(12x3)) x 120%= 178.2 mana regen, at the cost of 4 CD

Add in Zuni set
(45+(12x3) + 20) x 30% = 131.3 mana regen, at the cost of 1 CD<- currently you cannot go beyond this
(45+(12x3) + 20) x 60% = 161.6 mana regen, at the cost of 2 CD
(45+(12x3) + 20) x 90% = 191.9 mana regen, at the cost of 3 CD
(45+(12x3) + 20) x 120%= 222.2 mana regen, at the cost of 4 CD

Now compare that last one to the old one, 222 mana regen vs the 224 mana regen. It costs an effing ton! Get 3 mana regen pieces without sacrifing DPS + 4 skill slots. But it gives us almost unlimited mana! (I say almost because if we start stacking IAS, we will start to have mana issues again.)

It allows for those old WD builds to come back! ^_^, *wipes away tear* I can just feel the nostalgia of release.

It's about choice. What we had at release was a costly way to get unlimited mana, that was taken away from us. I wish we could keep that as well as have an inexpensive moderate mana regen. VQ's current mechanism can mimic the old but in a healthy way.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 2/23/2013 5:54 PM PST
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The fundamental point that is getting lost here is that VQ sucks BECAUSE IT'S TIED TO PRIMARIES. Come up with a suggestion where I'm not forced to waste a slot on RoT or Widowmakers and you'd have a room full of ears. The thought of scaling it with yet more primaries does nothing to help the real issue - mana regen at higher MP levels. My suggestion in the other thread, whilst just a thought without any serious critical processes behind it, frees up a skill slot, allows for burst damage before regen for the next mob, and allows kiting to remain effective at higher levels.
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100 Max mana on Mojo, Knife and Helm. That's 300 Max Mana. Xephirian Amulet has 100 mana can roll 2 more properties. Stone of Jordan has 100 mana. That's 500 max mana. At lvl 60 i have 750 mana + 500 = 1250 mana with items. 20% of that is 250, so that is 1500 mana and 15 mana regen from Spiritual attunement. Realistically, it is about 1200-1300.
SA is built to scale off of maximum mana, which many WD forget about, we can double our max mana with it's help while getting mana regen. Blood ritual further reduces cost of all spells by 15%. Which is like having 15% more mana at 1.00 IAS, more at higher attack speed.
etc etc
Add in some VQ mana regen and regen items with cost reduction items etc etc and we have a lot of mana and mana regen at low IAS.

What's my point?
My point is that we are already getting primary-free mana regen and maximum mana (the latter is underrated). That is not including, GF and GI. You can see my thread on GI betterment here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7894179474#1

Given that 2(4) of our 4(6) passives are primary-free, VQ is going to be, no, it *has* to be attached to some qualifier for it to fairly give us more mana regen. It used to be 4 cooldowns with enormous return, now it is 1 primary with little return.

You already understand this because you suggested to give us more regen based on char movement. You said 45% regen if we are moving. I think stutter-stepping would break that skill, and it would essentially be free 45% regen. But I think that's unfair. We should not have free regen outside of the other passives.

Again, all our active and passive skills, and gear allow for lots of mana regen. My concern here is that I want to cross that barrier between having a lot of mana and mana regen to extremely high/unlimited mana regen levels, like old VQ used to give, no matter what the cost. I want to break that mana regen barrier. Currently, there is No Way to get that kind of insane mana because it was removed in a previous patch. You sacrificed a lot to get it and when you did it opened up a new style of play, new builds, which were removed from the game the second VQ was re-designed.

Now think about what I just suggested, it opens up a backdoor to that old VQ...
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 2/23/2013 9:02 PM PST
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I've made a build that goes around VQ and primaries and gives almost the same results are old VQ.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7979988552
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02/23/2013 07:04 PMPosted by manvan
The fundamental point that is getting lost here is that VQ sucks BECAUSE IT'S TIED TO PRIMARIES. Come up with a suggestion where I'm not forced to waste a slot on RoT or Widowmakers and you'd have a room full of ears. The thought of scaling it with yet more primaries does nothing to help the real issue - mana regen at higher MP levels. My suggestion in the other thread, whilst just a thought without any serious critical processes behind it, frees up a skill slot, allows for burst damage before regen for the next mob, and allows kiting to remain effective at higher levels.


Manvan did you read my ideal it do's just this pluse it scales with IAS as a added boon for a class that normaly hates IAS.

My ideal should be liked by alot of people. Turn VQ into a physical spell copy of RoE. That covers all your primarys+Zombie Charger+Wall of Zombie+Bats+Acid Cloud+Locus Swarm.
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^ Yeah, to be honest, I don't think it's a bad idea. I'm loathe to create another passive which is a clone of RoE. And whilst Jang is eloquent with his response, and I've put forward a suggestion or two, they're not the answers either. I am convinced that the answer lies in our passives, but I don't know how it should play out.
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Well check this out and tell me if you think this is even remotely fair.

WD passives that have mana return baked into them becouse we need mana that badly.

1.) Spiritual Attunement
2.) Gruesome Feast
3.) Blood Ritual
4.) Rush of Essence
5.) Vision Quest
6.) Grave Injustice

Or a small 40% of are passives have mana return.

Now lets look at Wizard becouse that's the other class I have the most time on after WD.

Wiz passives that return AP

1.) Power Hungry
2.) Prodigy
3.) Astral Pressence

Or 20% of Wiz passives have AP returns hmm I wonder why that is?

Monk ?

1.) Exalted Soul
2.) Near Death Experience

Hmm now only two passives and I don't realy think players use Near Death to help with Spirit Reg. But it do's return spirit so I put it in there.

Demon Hunters.

Well they have two Hated and Dis so should they not have twice the Resoures passives to help out with that lets see.

For Hate
1.) Vengeance
2.) Grenadier

For Dis
1.) Night Stalker

wow only 3 resoures passives but two differnt resoures. Though I personly feel my DH has as much if not more resoures problems then we do. But there is a nice Combo between Night Stalker/Punishment and Bitter Pill.

But that's just 1 passive and 2 skill slots or 1/3 of each and it realy do's a very good job at taking care of your resoures problems. Add in the fact that Bola Shot is a very nice skill to start with and it's win win.

Barbs I dont know at all so I'm not going to do them.
Edited by Umbra#1460 on 2/25/2013 11:24 AM PST
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