Diablo® III

Mana Regen isn't the problem for WD

It's our incredibly lack of skill diversity for farming higher MP. So with this in mind, I am ignoring Spirit Barrage which is excellent for playing higher MP, but doesn't particularly excel in the farming efficiency aspect.

As it currently stands, WD are basically bottlenecked into using Zombie Bears and Acid Cloud to clear mobs. As these skills cost a large proportion of our mana pool, it is basically impossible to keep up for very long with dedicated gear and using a variety of different mana passives.

This is a fundamentally flawed system. Even with dedicated gear and passives, keeping up Bears and reliably spamming Acid Cloud can still leave us completely out of mana. The only times where I've felt like I've had infinite mana was when I get an Empowerment Shrine which boosts our mana regen to pretty much impossible to get levels.

The other classes do not have, at least to my knowledge, this problem. Many of the top end barbs do not need a full set of IK to manage their Fury. The same can be said for DH and Monks.

The only other class that I see has a similar problem is CM wizards as they also have to purchase dedicated gear in order to farm efficiently. The difference between us and wizards though is that they can get away with it for a hell of a lot cheaper. On diablofans right now, there is a 50m budget CM wizard guide. An ENTIRE CM set for 50m when you can expect to pay that much for an item with an affix -10 mana per zombie charger. Yes they have the same problem, but they can get away with it far better then a WD.

Another fundamentally flawed system of the WD is our badly designed primaries. Whereas the other classes use their primaries to generate resources, only a select few of our runes give us that ability and do it incredibly poorly as well. The damage they do is also completely mediocre compared to the other classes and is disturbing as to why we haven't gotten a buff to these skills at all. This makes primaries in general VERY unappealing and is really not surprising to see them not being used unless someone has vision quest equipped.

Take Bash for example. Each bash is 165% weapon damage and generates resource for them regardless of what rune they use. All of our primaries don't even come close to that much damage unless we have a rune specifically for damage and even IF we choose damage, we don't generate any mana. Vision Quest does answer this problem, however we should not be forced to use it just to make primaries what they SHOULD ALREADY BE, that is, resource generators.

So to summarize:

- Mana Regen isn't the problem. We are bottlenecked into using Bears and Acid Cloud, both very high mana costing skills just to farm efficiently on higher MP.

- In order to efficiently use these skills we have to excessively (compared to other classes) gear our WD to try and sustain our mana, still often failing to do so unless we spend significantly more than other classes.

- Our poorly designed primaries which do not regenerate mana unless we specifically rune them to do so. Their poor damage also makes them incredibly unappealing to use unless we specifically use Vision Quest to counteract the said problem.
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No offense but just because the main stream WD view is you need 3 mana passives to throw bears all day, doesn't mean that is our only option.

I run MP9 solo with a RoT/AC + (Bears) build and I have no mana passives and use PtV.

Edit Link: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#WfRhYU!WXa!bcZZbZ

The only mana generating skills I use are Locust Swarm/Devouring Swarm and Spirit Walk/Honored Guest. Of course I also have the zuni set.
In addition I proc chill, freeze, and immobolize from my gear.

Yes I do use bears and AC because they are our two of our best skills.

Just because you see typical builds everyday, doesn't mean you have to build a character that way, or it is the only way to play.
Edited by skywalkerfx#1247 on 2/22/2013 4:34 AM PST
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OP, no offense, you've made some point which are absolutely irrelevant. play other classes before pointing out things you don't even know.

Skill viability

Barb, it's either WW or HOTA for high mp farming.
DH, spike trap build is the only build i find viable for high mp farming.
Wiz, only CM wiz can farm well in high mp.
As for the WD, you can play with so many different set-up and still be able to farm well in ANY mp.

Like what skywalkerfx pointed out: " just because the main stream WD view is you need 3 mana passives to throw bears all day, doesn't mean that is our only option.'
i couldn't agree more on this. Plus other classes don't have the luxury of switching skills like the WD.

And as for gearing, i could only suggest you play a different toon and try to gear it on a specific budget.say 10m/toon and see how that goes.
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02/22/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Noble
0 dog.


I didn't write about this for the 1 obvious reason. It costs a lot It is by far the most expensive build in this game to make well ie not just getting to the point of 0 seconds zombie dog.


Skill viability

Barb, it's either WW or HOTA for high mp farming.
DH, spike trap build is the only build i find viable for high mp farming.
Wiz, only CM wiz can farm well in high mp.
As for the WD, you can play with so many different set-up and still be able to farm well in ANY mp.


For the most part I agree. Each class has only 2-3 viable methods to farm at higher MP, the essential difference to all this though is that in comparison we are INEFFICIENT in comparison which was essential what my entire post was about.

Take WW barb for example. I have a mate who can run it pretty much endlessly without using a full set IK. DH have Prep and Cluster grenades to efficiently restore their discipline. Wizards can gear for CM for way less than what it takes to properly gear a WD for bears.

Lastly there are not many different setups available to farm well on high MP. They will be the same variations on Bears and or Acid. Using anything else is a complete joke when the 1 thing you need to farm well is high damaging skills.

02/22/2013 09:58 AMPosted by xxBarabbasxx
It's our incredibly lack of skill diversity for farming higher MP. So with this in mind, I am ignoring Spirit Barrage which is excellent for playing higher MP, but doesn't particularly excel in the farming efficiency aspect.


You are best class for PvP and you want to be best farming class too??? Get real... Can't be best in every aspect...


Just no.

1) Having more efficient methods of sustaining our mana would not make us the best farming class. What a humongous fallacy.

2) Being good in an unbalanced combat system does not mean we are "the best at PvP". Wait until the actual release of a proper PvP system before you make that kind of statement.
Edited by PhoenixFire#6336 on 2/22/2013 10:10 AM PST
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Mana Regen is OBVIOUSLY the problem if all you're talking about is how we need to use our passives for mana regen and our primaries suck dps wise unless you focus on dps then you lose the mana regen... You are contradicting yourself my plvl 95 friend who's just now ranting about this?

- Mana Regen isn't the problem. We are bottlenecked into using Bears and Acid Cloud, both very high mana costing skills just to farm efficiently on higher MP.

- In order to efficiently use these skills we have to excessively (compared to other classes) gear our WD to try and sustain our mana, still often failing to do so unless we spend significantly more than other classes.

- Our poorly designed primaries which do not regenerate mana unless we specifically rune them to do so. Their poor damage also makes them incredibly unappealing to use unless we specifically use Vision Quest to counteract the said problem.


All you're talking about is how bad our mana regen is... Guess you're talking a little about how expensive our end game gear is.. But still, you being plvl 95, I would have assumed you learned how to deal with our mana problems.

Try Devouring Swarm. You won't even need to use 1 mana passive.
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Mana Regen is OBVIOUSLY the problem if all you're talking about is how we need to use our passives for mana regen and our primaries suck dps wise unless you focus on dps then you lose the mana regen... You are contradicting yourself my plvl 95 friend who's just now ranting about this?.


Mana regen is definitely apart of the problem, but does not encompass the entire thing. If we had more choice in skills, then mana would not become such a big issue, yes?

Plus the implication that 37 mana per enemy means I can ignore using mana passives is ridiculous. White mobs die too quickly and you are often left with an elite pack consisting anywhere from 3-9 monsters. Goodluck sustaining high DPS with bears on that.
Edited by PhoenixFire#6336 on 2/22/2013 10:36 AM PST
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@PhoenixFire
Here is an explanation of how they might be using Devouring Swarm. I personally don't get it because the places I have mana problems are on elites and bosses, not white mobs.

SayGga explains it here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593741875

Chuck is still trying to determine if it stacks or not but frankly that doesn't matter, its more useful for this build for mana regen. When using LS, if you hold down shift and using Locust Swarm in a circular motion around your character (think 360 degree here) making sure each individual unit gets infected - this allows for the jumping of locust back and forth, even amongst enemies already infected, and each jump gives you 40 mana or so... which adds up.
Edited by MCP#1477 on 2/22/2013 11:06 AM PST
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02/22/2013 11:00 AMPosted by xxBarabbasxx
You are best class for PvP and you want to be best farming class too??? Get real... Can't be best in every aspect...


Posted by PheonixFire

Just no.

1) Having more efficient methods of sustaining our mana would not make us the best farming class. What a humongous fallacy.

2) Being good in an unbalanced combat system does not mean we are "the best at PvP". Wait until the actual release of a proper PvP system before you make that kind of statement.


Umm are you dense??? Buffing mana/mana regen would just make WD more OP in PvP then they currently are... Most would agree WD is OP in regards to PvP... Roll another class if you want to farm higher mp with efficiency and ease... I have to roll a WD if I want to dominate in PvP... Again... GET REAL....


1) I am not talking about PvP. I have never stated that mana regen is a problem in PvP. Stop talking about PvP in my thread.

2) There is no such thing as PvP in D3. There is an unbalanced combat system called brawling that makes me giggle when people compare it to PvP.
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02/22/2013 11:00 AMPosted by xxBarabbasxx
You are best class for PvP and you want to be best farming class too??? Get real... Can't be best in every aspect...


Posted by PheonixFire

Just no.

1) Having more efficient methods of sustaining our mana would not make us the best farming class. What a humongous fallacy.

2) Being good in an unbalanced combat system does not mean we are "the best at PvP". Wait until the actual release of a proper PvP system before you make that kind of statement.


Umm are you dense??? Buffing mana/mana regen would just make WD more OP in PvP then they currently are... Most would agree WD is OP in regards to PvP... Roll another class if you want to farm higher mp with efficiency and ease... I have to roll a WD if I want to dominate in PvP... Again... GET REAL....


I would argue that buffing mana regen would have very little affect on PvP, but it would help at higher MP farming.

As it stands now, i have no issues with mana in a PvP fight...even in fights that last 15 mins. My mana is usually full most of the time. The problem with WD's and Mana happen when they have to spam our DPS skills like bears or acid rain at high MP while farming. They are very mana intensive so mana management at High MP is something that all WD's have to deal with...unless you run zero dog. I believe zero dog is the only build that isn't as mana intensive, however, the draw back is that zero dog builds are generally lower dps and lower resists
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I'm just chirping in here, but with Firebat reduction gear, Plague Bats can be reasonably decent at higher MPs, assuming you can take the up-close punishment (which is an issue for Bear builds anywho).
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@PhoenixFire
Here is an explanation of how they might be using Devouring Swarm. I personally don't get it because the places I have mana problems are on elites and bosses, not white mobs.

SayGga explains it here:


I'm doing this in my build with Devouring Swarm. You double or triple infect groups 5+ to get the 37 mana per infection. The reason you infect white mobs is to use bears against large tanky mobs that need 8-10+ bear casts to kill in high MP.

I'm playing on MP9 solo, and I have no mana skills except Devouring Swarm and the mana rune on SW and ... I use PtV. So i have maybe 4 casts of bears before I OoM. Again using Locusts I get 8-10+ casts depending on how many get infected.

I use AC/Lob Blob and RoT to kill elites and bosses, bears aren't as important for them, and there is no way you can leech enough mana to make bearing them down possible in my build.

I know this may sound wierd, but it does work, you just have to get your timing down. And if you don't, you get whacked.

But it certainly is a lot of fun. Did have to knock my screen animation speeds down in settings to avoid crashes as things get real crazy when you have 50+ monsters infected and you are throwing bears and exploding them. It is probably much more widespread damage than someone can do with zero dogs.

So an example of how it works: Rakkis Crossing on the Bridge you meet the lone Captain and you then have to kill a bunch of monsters. So I threw a couple locusts on the mob and had bears going the whole time and took out 47 monsters. Again without locusts, I have 4 or 5 bear casts.
Edited by skywalkerfx#1247 on 2/22/2013 1:54 PM PST
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ive recently changed my ac to locust swarm, works very well and it spreads like aids
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Why would you want to use something other than bears? Bears are like cheating. And yea I just recently started using devouring swarm too... it is insane.
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problem is not mana regen itself , but the spell cast worth or not

u can spam PD forever but u won't , u cast locust swarm for 196mana (the most mana cost of all WD spell) when u feel it is worth (face a big group which not die within 8 sec)but u won't cast it even it cost 0 if your face only 1 target and can 1 shot it
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i picked up a decent locust swarm SoJ 30% elites, 6% poison, 12% locust damage.. i can 1 cast on mp6 trash and they melt every time. i even (for now until i trade out my hellfire in 20 lvls) traded out my pox for the soj. no mana issue
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